MSB Select II arrival

[Mike Lavigne]

Understood. All this could have been avoided if the statement would have been <<Everything else that I have heard thus far sounds like "good digital">>. This would have been uncontroversial and still would have gotten across the perceived extraordinary status of the new MSB gear.

I think we also can regulate how hard we react, and that degree can either ramp up the rhetoric or defuse it.

all/many/most of us have been on both sides of these interactions. it's normal.

 

[Al M.]

I think we also can regulate how hard we react, and that degree can either ramp up the rhetoric or defuse it.

all/many/most of us have been on both sides of these interactions. it's normal.

Point taken, Mike. I like to react 'hard' in such circumstances, perhaps borne from my preference for more accurate expression even when speaking in superlatives (you'll have noticed that my enthusiasm can be effusive too). I can easily see why this may appear overbearing though.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Point taken, Mike. I like to react 'hard' in such circumstances, perhaps borne from my preference for more accurate expression even when speaking in superlatives (you'll have noticed that my enthusiasm can be effusive too). I can easily see why this may appear overbearing though.

lots of passion going on. it would not be any fun without it.

I'd rather it bubbles over regularly than we don't have enough.

 

[Al M.]

lots of passion going on. it would not be any fun without it.

I'd rather it bubbles over regularly than we don't have enough.

Thumbs up to that!

 

[koalakoala]

Hi CK,

I was at the HK Show Saturday. The MSB room was so crowded that I could hardly squeeze in. I took a long range shot of the Ref Dac then left shortly (as they were explaining the Italian speakers in which I had little interest).
Glad to hear that their new transport is coming out soon (the local agent said about year end previously). The existing transport (Oppo based) is limited to 24/192 and 64dsd resolution. The Japanese are already making audio blurays of 32/384 and 256dsd. If the new transport can spin those hi-rez blurays, I would seriously consider acquiring one (assuming reasonable upgrade discount).
Optical link? that would be awful...

BTW I went to the show primarily to check on the Stromtank s2500 battery (new half height version ~20000euro) - perhaps there is life after 2×mono powerbases...

Cheers

 

[KeithR]

Point taken, Mike. I like to react 'hard' in such circumstances, perhaps borne from my preference for more accurate expression even when speaking in superlatives (you'll have noticed that my enthusiasm can be effusive too). I can easily see why this may appear overbearing though.

What's funny is that I usually can be a bit of a negative nancy on forums

I just made a short post, not a full review or anything of the like. It should be taken solely as that and since you have Goodwin's that carries MSB, DCS, and Berkeley maybe it will drive you for an audition. I don't proclaim to be a dac expert or have tried everything. If that was your take, I apologize. I do know that when I searched out a new dac two years ago, I purchased an Analog Dac after looking and auditioning several options. I am pretty adamantly against the "dac of the month" club and went through that process early on in my audiophile career.

 

[BruceD]

Hi CK,

BTW I went to the show primarily to check on the Stromtank s2500 battery (new half height version ~20000euro) - perhaps there is life after 2×mono powerbases...

Cheers

Word around the traps says this has more features and 50% cheaper than the Stromtank

Interesting

Bruce

 

[Al M.]

What's funny is that I usually can be a bit of a negative nancy on forums

I just made a short post, not a full review or anything of the like. It should be taken solely as that and since you have Goodwin's that carries MSB, DCS, and Berkeley maybe it will drive you for an audition. I don't proclaim to be a dac expert or have tried everything. If that was your take, I apologize.

No need to apologize, I didn't take your post to mean you tried everything. I was just objecting to a sloppy expression, that's all .

I do know that when I searched out a new dac two years ago, I purchased an Analog Dac after looking and auditioning several options. I am pretty adamantly against the "dac of the month" club and went through that process early on in my audiophile career.

Then we seem to have similar thinking on that. I bought my first 4 CD playback combos within 3 years or so, and then stuck with that fourth one for about 20 years (Wadia 8/12). Before I bought my current Schiit Yggdrasil DAC I listened to my Berkeley DAC for about 4 years. The Yggdrasil is not going to leave my system anytime soon, and neither is my Simaudio Moon CD transport.

 

[Legolas]

I dunno Al - why don't you tell me?

I guess I'm tired of making comments wherein I described what I heard to draw my conclusions and now being told I'm an idiot and haven't heard anything.

Maybe don't say it then? I try to stick to refs on what I have heard, rather than say 'all tubed' or 'all digital' is this or that.

But IF I was to do that, a may say:
Going back to technicals, you do know DHTs are the most linear amplification devices ever invented, and of course fets are switching devices that even as Class A create noise in the way that operate.

 

[jep123]

Hi CK,

I was at the HK Show Saturday. The MSB room was so crowded that I could hardly squeeze in. I took a long range shot of the Ref Dac then left shortly (as they were explaining the Italian speakers in which I had little interest).
Glad to hear that their new transport is coming out soon (the local agent said about year end previously). The existing transport (Oppo based) is limited to 24/192 and 64dsd resolution. The Japanese are already making audio blurays of 32/384 and 256dsd. If the new transport can spin those hi-rez blurays, I would seriously consider acquiring one (assuming reasonable upgrade discount).
Optical link? that would be awful...

BTW I went to the show primarily to check on the Stromtank s2500 battery (new half height version ~20000euro) - perhaps there is life after 2×mono powerbases...

Cheers

Are they using an Oppo drive in the MSB? Isn`t this a rather cheap transport? Not saying that it isn`t good or reliable, but..?

JP

 

[Young Skywalker]

I had a full day demo of the MSB Reference DAC in my system yesterday courtesy of Alex (asiufy) - to say I was impressed is an understatement.

What first struck me was how relaxed the presentation was - just like good analog, but not like old school "swingin'" turntables. I also heard decay that was astounding coming from a digital source (all 16/44 fyi). There was no sheen added however and transparency was clearly in a new direction - for instance, vocals had a sense of inflection and undulation that was higher than any reference I've heard. On my Jarvis Cocker album, I quipped that I could feel the movements in his throat which made it feel like he was literally in front of us. The MSB also had remarkable drive - surely in part due to its 50lb (!) power supply. On Bonzo's favorite Reiner, it really made me feel like I was in Disney Hall even compared with my Brinkmann-based analog system...but I wasn't picking out parts of the recording. It was a very holistic experience.

Most of the time, "better digital" means more detail - what I have stewed upon over the past 24 hours is that with the MSB that wasn't my focus and it went beyond those boundaries. I also understand now why the digital vs. analog comparisons are somewhat tiring to Mike and not terribly important. And yes, we did a half dozen vinyl/MSB swaps on both analog and digital recordings. I don't think there was necessarily a winner or loser on *all* tracks. I just think MSB has taken a leap into new territory where it doesn't sound quite digital or analog at all. It really is its own reference.

We also did swaps using my Music First TVC preamp vs. the MSB internal version - this was a slight area of disagreement between Alex and I, but I preferred the transformer-based passive's more realistic tone and timbre as well as drive and "umph." I just found the internal version thin in a few spots. Alex thought the internal version was a hair more transparent. I wonder if at the Select level, which has no filter, if the results would change.

So where does it leave me? I feel that if I didn't have a vinyl collection, saving up for a Ref Dac would be my first priority and its such an easy, well-integrated solution. Having a small record collection and decent analog rig complicates the thought process but I will work through it over the next few weeks.

I also find it interesting that Bonzo and I disagree quite a bit on the sound of the MSB - i think this is one area that having a well-developed, house system helps.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the Reference DAC. May I ask which clock you auditioned with and if the optional constant impedance volume control/preamp module was installed?

 

[morricab]

Whie I agree that analog can sound absolutely fantastic, I just cannot agree with your statement. I have had superlative experiences with digital as well.

Well, I don't agree with Ked on specifics all that often but on the generality I would certainly have to agree. I have not had any truly positive experiences with SS digital. Nothing revelatory whatsoever...just different flavors of inadequate.

That is why I stuck with my budget Monarchy M24 for so long...not one SS digital component tempted me away. I will state though that Analog is missing a lot without a superaltive tube phonostage...I would love to have heard this Air Tight phonostage...my Silvaweld phonostage is probably the one piece of gear that will go with me to my grave.

I also know live music very very well and I full understand what Ked is banging on about with Flow, liquidity and continuousness...I hear it live and with the best analog experiences... I almost hear it with the best Lampi demos I have heard and almost with the Aries Cerat Kassandra...but not quite.

 

[awsmone]

+1

until i experienced Meitner equipment couldn't agree more

i have no experience of Lampi stuff but intrigued??

I have a lot experience with Audio note modified DAC, and still own one..........but am listening to a 50 yo record as i type this....

 

[Al M.]

I also know live music very very well and I full understand what Ked is banging on about with Flow, liquidity and continuousness...

While I also listen a good deal to live music, I don't quite understand what Ked is banging on about with flow, liquidity and continuousness. And as I said, these things can also be a pleasant artifact of home reproduction, born from a lack of detail and transient energy. A weakness rather than a strength.

But then, perhaps I am biased, preferring to sit close to the stage at a live concert. Further back the experience is somewhat different. Still, when I hear of flow, liquidity and continuousness describing a system's sound, a red flag comes up in my mind rather than reassurance.

Same holds true for me when people talk about a 'relaxed' sound, by the way. The last thing I want my system to sound is 'relaxed', and that is also not how I experience live sound.

 

[wisnon]

Help, this thread is exploding and I cant keep up!

 

[earlinarizona]

Not exploding but a very healthy thread with a lot of good information. I never expected it to be this big.

 

[morricab]

+1

until i experienced Meitner equipment couldn't agree more

i have no experience of Lampi stuff but intrigued??

I have a lot experience with Audio note modified DAC, and still own one..........but am listening to a 50 yo record as i type this....

A friend of mine had the Meitner MA-1 and it was crushed by the Lampi Golden Atlantic and the Aries Cerat Kassandra...he put the Meitner up for sale the next day...it was not even close. Don't know about the pricier ones head to head but from what I have heard at shows it is more of the same. Even my "lowly" Monarchy M24 outdid the 7.5K Meitner on soundstage and tonality...only bass punch was lacking compared to the MA-1.

 

[morricab]

While I also listen a good deal to live music, I don't quite understand what Ked is banging on about with flow, liquidity and continuousness. And as I said, these things can also be a pleasant artifact of home reproduction, born from a lack of detail and transient energy. A weakness rather than a strength.

But then, perhaps I am biased, preferring to sit close to the stage at a live concert. Further back the experience is somewhat different. Still, when I hear of flow, liquidity and continuousness describing a system's sound, a red flag comes up in my mind rather than reassurance.

Same holds true for me when people talk about a 'relaxed' sound, by the way. The last thing I want my system to sound is 'relaxed', and that is also not how I experience live sound.

Maybe you remember my threads late last year about a house cello concert and 2nd row at Tonhalle for Evgeniy Kissin Piano concerto? There I was point blank range and there was a richness and tone and flow and continuousness that one simply doesn't hear from SS digital in my experience (I admit to not hearing the Select DAC II though)...or even fully with tube digital or even analog (but they get closer). I used to hear point blank violin nightly for years. And not just any violins, Strad, Guarneri, Guadhinini, Amati and such played by a top pro. Detail is there, yes but it is not broken down and micro analyzed...it fits into the big picture of music and it flows and is seamless in a way you won't hear a system do. Ked is not saying his GG is as good as those live experiences, but it does get that general flow and presence correct without letting down the resolution side too much.

 

[morricab]

About this digital versus analog and even what is possible with digital:

When you buy a 45 rpm record from the same pressing you get the same very low distortion sound as everyone else buying this disc (close to master tape sound). Obviously, the playback is only as good as the turntable, cartridge, arm, cable and phono stage. When you download a high rez file (no way a 16/44 can ever sound as good as analog) what are you getting? How many computers, cables, etc. has the signal gone through to get to your computer? Does your cable company sound as good as another? Have you tried super linear power supplies on your modem or router? Do you have the world's best Ethernet cable from your modem to your download device? Have you treated the connections and also damped them? If you have not done all the above then how good is your download? Has anyone tried any of this? How do you download? I believe that every single person downloading has a different and sometimes very poor download. It is now common knowledge that digital signals can get screwed up very easily. How can you compare a physical record with a screwed up download? This is not fair. Have any one of you actually recorded live using high rez digital and played the master directly back into your system? My sense is that it is out of this world crazy good. Even my $230 Sony battery powered 24/96 recorder sounds amazing played back out of it analog outs.

Laser read discs are not even worth mentioning. You have to sand the edges, black the edges and the whole top, apply CD enhancement fluids to them and then demagnetize them and de-static them.....and then the de-static/demagnetizing effects only last about 10 minutes as the spinning CD creates more static on it. There is one digital physical media that is worth pursuing.....the SD card. It is a pure memory device and has no packeting like usb. If you could receive a direct copy of high rez burned to an SD card by the recording company on a super low jitter battery powered server and then mailed directly to you then you would have the equivalent of a 45 rpm record or even a master tape. You could play back this card using a SD card player built into your MSB DAC.....now we are talking!!!!!! Other playback options would be the $800? Japanese group buy SD player, the Tascam $1000 recorder (modified, of course) or if you rich you could buy one of these: http://www.lessloss.com/laminar-streamer-sd-player-p-207.html Note the discount if you buy more than one! he he. Imagine calling Reference Recordings and having them make you a one off SD card of their high rez master. You don't want to get it from HDtracks or whomever because it has to be sent via internet to them and they download it and put it on their monster noisy servers that are not run on batteries......you want the SD material right from the original source. When you buy a 45 rpm record that was mastered by whomever it does not matter who you buy it from.....it is always the same........not so with digital. Go to the source.

I understand that an SD card source is not coming. No one has anything to play them on and they are so small they are not easily identifiable. Plus they are not sexy like a turntable. And they are not convenient like downloading and streaming. But.....oh my!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....what a sound you would have.....and then the digital versus analog listening tests would be meaningful.

So, has anyone tweaked their downloading hardware? Any thoughts?

A download is a digital file, which will not have a memory of the things you are describing. Unless the bits themselves are somehow corrupted it will not have an effect. However, once that computer on which you have stored the file attempts to "play" the file, then all the processes of that computer become relevant, clock cycles, latency periods, power supply noise, jitter on the digital output stream etc. etc.

 

[bonzo75]

A friend of mine had the Meitner MA-1 and it was crushed by the Lampi Golden Atlantic and the Aries Cerat Kassandra...he put the Meitner up for sale the next day...it was not even close. Don't know about the pricier ones head to head but from what I have heard at shows it is more of the same. Even my "lowly" Monarchy M24 outdid the 7.5K Meitner on soundstage and tonality...only bass punch was lacking compared to the MA-1.

I think you need to write an essay on crush before Al asks.

I auditioned the Meitner 1 before I bought my Lampi 5. Both were compared to my then incumbent AR Dac 8. I compared the MA 2 to Rossini, MA2 was ‘better’, and the dealer too preferred it that way but that said the upsampler would improve the Rossini, which to me seemed ideal for someone who did not need flow and continuousness. It was also more rolled off and less natural than MA2, though both paled to the Feickert Firebird and the Pluto next to them