High end Munich 2017

[DaveyF]

You are the dealer who specifically said Soulution bass sound like card board and Dartzeel is much superior. You could have said Soulution sounds great but Dartzeel sounds better.

And if that happens to be true? What if Soulution does sound like card board and Dart is way better...
Personally, I would like to know that, particularly if it comes from someone who's ears I trust.

BTW, I have no affiliation with Alma, but I don't like to see people try and squash others opinions because they may (and probably do) have their own vested interest.

You wouldn't happen to own Soulution would you?

 

[asiufy]

You are the dealer who specifically said Soulution bass sound like card board and Dartzeel is much superior. You could have said Soulution sounds great but Dartzeel sounds better.

Oh, that.. Let me guess: you like Soulution? Just to put things in perspective: when I did that audition, I was looking to purchase a Magico Q7. I was not impressed with the dealer's Soulution, thus I asked to bring my darTZeel. And yes, the darTZeels were considerably better, so much that I purchased the Q7s, which I wouldn't have purchased if my experience with them was limited to the Soulutions. So no, I can't say the Soulutions sounded great because, frankly, they didn't.

Again, I was not a dealer, just an audiophile auditioning stuff. That's how you gain experience, BTW.

I didn't "trash" anything, I just posted my impression of a listening session, just like lots of folks do. I'm sorry if my listening impression doesn't correlate with yours, and you felt slighted by it. Don't take it personally. Tons of people don't like the products I like. That's how the hobby goes, different strokes...

And can we drop the usage of "dealer" as if it was a bad thing? This is really getting old... I don't "push" anything, I try to report my experiences, be them bad or good. I don't want to, nor do I need to, sell you product.

If I see a post where I can be helpful, I'll try to help. More often than not, my experiences will involve one of the brands I represent because those are the brands I have the most extensive experience with. Simple as that.

 

[christoph]

I have heard the WE's, the Trios with Bass horns and even the vaunted Triolons? Many others that I cannot even recall now. None...none did anything for me at all. Several of the most highly thought after models couldn't get away from the dreaded 'clasped hands' sound...others couldn't portray depth of image,or had the shrill and fake sounding treble that is prevalent with this design. Dynamics, I will give you, are a horns strength...but music reproduction isn't all about dynamics! Extreme volume are also a horns strength, but who cares about this?? Unless you are trying to fill a big hall...which is why I would opt for horns all day long as my PA.
While it may be true to say that is more difference between horns, IME they all have a certain 'house' sound, and to my ears that sound just isn't the sound of the Real...or even close to it. YMMV.

What kind or brand of speakers then do rock your boat?

 

[Al M.]

I have heard the WE's, the Trios with Bass horns and even the vaunted Triolons? Many others that I cannot even recall now. None...none did anything for me at all. Several of the most highly thought after models couldn't get away from the dreaded 'clasped hands' sound...others couldn't portray depth of image,or had the shrill and fake sounding treble that is prevalent with this design.

You should try to get to hear Volti horns. Remarkable lack of horn coloration.

Dynamics, I will give you, are a horns strength...but music reproduction isn't all about dynamics!

And other kinds of speakers can portray dynamics too.

Extreme volume are also a horns strength, but who cares about this?? Unless you are trying to fill a big hall...which is why I would opt for horns all day long as my PA.

Who cares about this? People who you want to be deaf at old age.

Folks, use your SPL meter (no, not on your phone, get a real one for 30 bucks) and follow NIOSH recommendations on loudness exposure if you still want to enjoy your hobby 20 years from now.

You can be as macho about loudness as you want, but basic biology doesn't care about this. It will catch up with you, plain and simple.

While it may be true to say that is more difference between horns, IME they all have a certain 'house' sound, and to my ears that sound just isn't the sound of the Real...or even close to it. YMMV.

Again, the Volti horns changed my outlook on this.

 

[bonzo75]

I have my doubts if such a statement can be made in general terms. Especially if the smaller speaker is paired with one or more subwoofers (apart from the fact that also large speakers often benefit from paring with subs).

I am with you, most audiophiles have an oversized speaker for the room, and like I mentioned on my Italian thread, Dimitri, who Gian and others claim is the best set up guy in Italy, in many cases will call any floorstander oversized in a normal room. That said, once you have crossed a certain threshold of space, a big horn will integrate better than a big cone or big panel with the room probably because of their directive nature.

 

[christoph]

Even less critical in small(ish) rooms than horns are dipoles because of their inherent radiation pattern. They radiate very little to the sides and practibly zero to the floor and ceiling.
That's probably the reason why the Acoustats work so well in my challenging upstairs listening room.

 

[bonzo75]

Even less critical in small(ish) rooms than horns are dipoles because of their inherent radiation pattern. They radiate very little to the sides and practibly zero to the floor and ceiling.
That's probably the reason why the Acoustats work so well in my challenging upstairs listening room.

Small rooms yes, I wouldn't use horns, but once the room gets bigger, I would prefer a big horn to a big panel like full range, which would require even more space, say 30 ft or more times 16 at least.

 

[DaveyF]

What kind or brand of speakers then do rock your boat?

Brand...not brand specific.

I am also not type specific, so IF...If I heard a speaker that was able to reproduce sound like I hear at a 'live' venue, or as I know certain instruments to sound in real life, then I am impressed.
Unfortunately, as I have said before, there are no speakers out there that can do this trick...at least to fool me enough into thinking I am hearing the real. Again, unfortunately, my background in music has most likely made this particular bar very high for me. Others may well have the bar at a much lower level.
Horns, for me ( at least all of the ones that I have heard so far...and no Al, I have yet to hear the Volti's) just don't do it.

 

[KeithR]

You should try to get to hear Volti horns. Remarkable lack of horn coloration.

That's funny as I feel quite the opposite on the Vittoras I've heard at shows (on Border Patrol and Vinni Rossi). Perhaps the new ones are better

 

[Al M.]

That's funny as I feel quite the opposite on the Vittoras I've heard at shows (on Border Patrol and Vinni Rossi). Perhaps the new ones are better

Interesting, haven't heard the Vittoras yet.

 

[morricab]

Brand...not brand specific.

I am also not type specific, so IF...If I heard a speaker that was able to reproduce sound like I hear at a 'live' venue, or as I know certain instruments to sound in real life, then I am impressed.
Unfortunately, as I have said before, there are no speakers out there that can do this trick...at least to fool me enough into thinking I am hearing the real. Again, unfortunately, my background in music has most likely made this particular bar very high for me. Others may well have the bar at a much lower level.
Horns, for me ( at least all of the ones that I have heard so far...and no Al, I have yet to hear the Volti's) just don't do it.

Obviously there are no "perfect" speakers and having a high bar is fine but your blanket condemnation of horns is sadly misguided. I have heard many box speakers more colored than the better horns. Some even approach ribbon levels of low coloration. You paint with far too broad a brush.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Again, unfortunately, my background in music has most likely made this particular bar very high for me. Others may well have the bar at a much lower level.
(...)

I fail to understand how different preferences can imply a "lower level" bar.

 

[microstrip]

You should try to get to hear Volti horns. Remarkable lack of horn coloration. (...)

Although my experience of horns is limited I can say the same of Avantgarde properly amplified and set-up. I always criticized them on this aspect until one day I listened to them without any horn coloration at all. Since long I learned that we listen to great sounding systems we are also appreciating the expertise of the person who assembled and tuned the system.

And no, I am not going into horns!

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Although my experience of horns is limited I can say the same of Avantgarde properly amplified and set-up. I always criticized them on this aspect until one day I listened to them without any horn coloration at all. Since long I learned that we listen to great sounding systems we are also appreciating the expertise of the person who assembled and tuned the system.

And no, I am not going into horns!

+++1, exactly.

 

[joelavrencik]

Asiufy is well known for trashing other brand in comparison to the brand he carried.

Acoustically, Munich is the toughest show in the world. You’d have to be blind not to see that every serious room has extensive acoustic treatment. This is because every room has slap echoes on top of slap echoes and the walls and floors resonate in sympathy with as many as 4 other rooms.

So, I must come to the defense of Leif. VSA is among the high-end companies whose executives are laser focused on excellence. I know Leif as a fellow manufacturer and, over time, an executive’s in-the-moment rhetoric lays bear the culture of the company. Leif is straight up. In Munich, Leif busted his ass to make a hideous acoustic space (every room is) sound listenable. The first year for manufacturers is often a learning experience. Give this team a break. I hope we don’t define the excellence of their first-year effort (or products) by a comment on this thread.

 

[Steve Williams]

Nicely said Joe

 

[Al M.]

Acoustically, Munich is the toughest show in the world. You’d have to be blind not to see that every serious room has extensive acoustic treatment. This is because every room has slap echoes on top of slap echoes and the walls and floors resonate in sympathy with as many as 4 other rooms.

So, I must come to the defense of Leif. VSA is among the high-end companies whose executives are laser focused on excellence. I know Leif as a fellow manufacturer and, over time, an executive’s in-the-moment rhetoric lays bear the culture of the company. Leif is straight up. In Munich, Leif busted his ass to make a hideous acoustic space (every room is) sound listenable. The first year for manufacturers is often a learning experience. Give this team a break. I hope we don’t define the excellence of their first-year effort (or products) by a comment on this thread.

Good points. However, nobody here claims they didn't make a serious effort. It's the end result that was criticized -- I cannot comment, not having heard it at Munich.

And no, we shouldn't give anyone a break. If it doesn't sound good, then it doesn't sound good. Regardless how difficult it might be to get a good sound at a show. It is time for manufacturers/exhibitors to stop complaining and make excuses -- it's the end result that matters to the potential customer. If you don't think you can get a good sound at a given show, then don't exhibit. If you do exhibit regardless, then don't complain and don't make excuses -- even if the feedback on your result is less than stellar.

 

[joelavrencik]

Good points. However, nobody here claims they didn't make a serious effort. It's the end result that was criticized -- I cannot comment, not having heard it at Munich.

And no, we shouldn't give anyone a break. If it doesn't sound good, then it doesn't sound good. Regardless how difficult it might be to get a good sound at a show. It is time for manufacturers/exhibitors to stop complaining and make excuses -- it's the end result that matters to the potential customer. If you don't think you can get a good sound at a given show, then don't exhibit. If you do exhibit regardless, then don't complain and don't make excuses -- even if the feedback on your result is less than stellar.

Oh Boy……….. ? this is really disturbing. But, on the brighter side, you were right at the outset. You didn’t hear it and have you have no relevant opinion. For your further consideration, your sophomoric effort to conflate results with the difficulty of the first year effort, the thematic point of the post, is tired and jejune. My point remains.

 

[adyc]

Oh Boy……….. ? this is really disturbing. But, on the brighter side, you were right at the outset. You didn’t hear it and have you have no relevant opinion. For your further consideration, your sophomoric effort to conflate results with the difficulty of the first year effort, the thematic point of the post, is tired and jejune. My point remains.

+1

 

[Steve Williams]

Oh Boy……….. ? this is really disturbing. But, on the brighter side, you were right at the outset. You didn’t hear it and have you have no relevant opinion. For your further consideration, your sophomoric effort to conflate results with the difficulty of the first year effort, the thematic point of the post, is tired and jejune. My point remains.

Al M says.........

If you don't think you can get a good sound at a given show, then don't exhibit.

You're tough Al. Do you honestly believe that a manufacturer doesn't think he can get good sound. As Joe says all the rooms there were filled with slap echoes and other reflections. It's difficult for me to fathom that the room which was considered by most to be the Best In Show at Axpona only a few weeks ago was said to be underwhelming last week in Munich.