DaveC's RMAF 2016 Best In Show: Austin Acoustic

[KeithR]

I'll be honest Dave- if your requirement for a show write up is 30-45 minutes with all your own music, most audiophiles are going to fail that test. Its simply too difficult and there isn't enough time with 120 rooms over a weekend.

Most of the music played is stuff we know or have heard and even when not, you can still tell certain system traits. I didn't find Amir out of line at all and disagreement is fine. Ironically, I know Amir thought the Wilson rooms were great when they were some of my least favorite sounding rooms at the show. Go figure!

 

[FrantzM]

I'll be honest Dave- if your requirement for a show write up is 30-45 minutes with all your own music, most audiophiles are going to fail that test. Its simply too difficult and there isn't enough time with 120 rooms over a weekend.

Most of the music played is stuff we know or have heard and even when not, you can still tell certain system traits. I didn't find Amir out of line at all and disagreement is fine. Ironically, I know Amir thought the Wilson rooms were great when they were some of my least favorite sounding rooms at the show. Go figure!

+!

And to add to that. I don't get it for anyone to be so riled when someone has a contrary or negative opinion of a product. This is how it works out there .. outside the echo chamber: You like? I don't, life goes on. I can't for the life of me, understand why anyone should become so riled up.
I don't think the last resort when someone has no facts to back an argument should be expletives either.

 

[DaveC]

It doesn't take 30-45 minutes. Often I have a single track about 5-7 min long with 1-2 min clips of several tracks I know well.

Part of the issue is Amir has bashed many other companies' products unfairly, imo. He made it sound like he was actually familiar with the system, I had to go to his forum to find out that wasn't the case and post it here so people can see he actually didn't give them a fair chance. IMO he's far out of line with his comments and simply doesn't have enough information to form any sort of a reasonable opinion. The fact he did so shows no empathy and no regard for Austin.

You know, this really sucks... I'm trying to simply put out a review of one of the best systems I've ever heard and I have to deal with this bullshit. It's ridiculous and obviously we can't get away from Amir's disturbing posts even when he's gone and has his own forum to play in. I really wish he wouldn't have posted, and I wish I could just disregard his BS, but the fact is he's harming yet another audio company and I won't put up with it. I think Amir should be banned for this. It's just nasty and negative, it's not fair to Austin, and imo it shouldn't be tolerated. Now this thread is off track and contaminated with Amir issues, like so many other threads before. I feel bad for Austin, this thread should be about their system and how it sounds, not this BS.

And I do agree disagreement is fine, but this isn't about disagreeing... this is about someone bashing a new audio company, possibly harming them, without enough experience with the system in question to form a reasonable opinion. It's about mean, nasty people that are incapable of empathy harming other people. This is why it's such a big deal, it's not just a difference of opinion.

 

[microstrip]

+!

And to add to that. I don't get it for anyone to be so riled when someone has a contrary or negative opinion of a product. This is how it works out there .. outside the echo chamber: You like? I don't, life goes on. I can't for the life of me, understand why anyone should become so riled up.
I don't think the last resort when someone has no facts to back an argument should be expletives either.

Frantz,

IMHO it is not what we ourselves exactly feel about the bashing negative posts - it is about the real negative consequences they have in forums. Again IMHO it is a case for moderators and forum owners.

 

[slowGEEZR]

I've been to Lin's place, here in Austin. The picture in Dave's provided link shows his listening room, as I experienced it. The speaker's in the link's picture are priced at half a million. The CD player has circuits bypassed by his own electronics, sorry I don't recall what sections. I thought the sound of his expensive speakers, with his electronics, sounded very very real to life. There were some minor issues with bass integration, but minor, IMO.

 

[treitz3]

Gentlemen, good evening to you all. This is just a friendly reminder that discussion about a particular member is not the topic of the thread. In fact, it is off topic. Please, if you have observations? By all means post them. Some folks may agree, some may not. Everyone is entitled to their own observations. All we ask is that the members of this forum continue the conversation without speaking in a personal manner about any other member. If you disagree with someone, that is fine and often normal in this hobby of ours. With that said, don't attack the person, base your response on why you happen to disagree. Thank you all.

Tom

 

[ddk]

I don't see the issue with Amir's comments, one can disagree but people are entitled to their opinions and their own methods to form them!

david

 

[DaveC]

I don't see the issue with Amir's comments, one can disagree but people are entitled to their opinions and their own methods to form them!

david

People are entitled to believe anything they want, doesn't mean it has anything to do with reality, doesn't mean it's ethically or morally right either. Can we just stop with this crap, now?

 

[Al M.]

People are entitled to believe anything they want, doesn't mean it has anything to do with reality, doesn't mean it's ethically or morally right either. Can we just stop with this crap, now?

Why are you so sensitive? If the product's merits are great they will stand on their own. You heard what you heard, and Amir heard what he heard.

The idea that we all should hear the same thing is not borne out in reality. We all have our own listening priorities and preferences, and this deeply informs the outcome of our perception of what we hear. And as I have witnessed even physically our hearing is significantly different in some cases (I'm not even talking about hearing loss here). I know a lot of people wouldn't like a system like mine in their home (even once they would have heard that it is much better than they might think ), and in many cases I wouldn't want their systems in my home either, even if they cost substantially more than mine.

 

[DaveC]

Why are you so sensitive? If the product's merits are great they will stand on their own. You heard what you heard, and Amir heard what he heard.

The idea that we all should hear the same thing is not borne out in reality. We all have our own listening priorities and preferences, and this deeply informs the outcome of our perception of what we hear. And as I have witnessed even physically our hearing is significantly different in some cases (I'm not even talking about hearing loss here). I know a lot of people wouldn't like a system like mine in their home (even once they would have heard that it is much better than they might think ), and in many cases I wouldn't want their systems in my home either, even if they cost substantially more than mine.

Look, I'm not discussing this anymore. I said what I wanted to and asked people to STOP WITH THIS CRAP. I don't know why you had to post that after I asked people to stop it... it added nothing relevant. If you can't understand my point of view just let it go. But I will say I can definitely understand where Peter B was coming from when he went off on everyone last year and why Andre Marc left.... and tons of other people left. I have to wonder why I bother.. this is ridiculous.

Mods... please just delete this entire trainwreck of a thread.

 

[Steve williams]

Good morning all.

FWIW I read with great interest your review and was intrigued as I had never heard of this company and as microstrip stated I too take notice of positive reports at shows and rarely negative ones for the obvious reasons. IMO it is situations such as these that tend to make members think twice about putting up a review of any equipment for fear of sliding down the path this thread has rapidly become. I also sense and feel Daves meltdown as a result of this. Sure differences of opinion are healthy but I've said time and again that it is all in the manner in which said differences are discussed that sets the tone for the thread. I also tend to agree with Dave that casual negative comments about a system based on a perfunctory casual listen serves only to harm the manufacturer and TBH this is not what WBF is about.

So let's all take a deep breath. I'd love to hear more about this system so why don't we try to keep a positive mindset.

 

[Al M.]

Good morning all.

FWIW I read with great interest your review and was intrigued as I had never heard of this company and as microstrip stated I too take notice of positive reports at shows and rarely negative ones for the obvious reasons. IMO it is situations such as these that tend to make members think twice about putting up a review of any equipment for fear of sliding down the path this thread has rapidly become. I also sense and feel Daves meltdown as a result of this. Sure differences of opinion are healthy but I've said time and again that it is all in the manner in which said differences are discussed that sets the tone for the thread. I also tend to agree with Dave that casual negative comments about a system based on a perfunctory casual listen serves only to harm the manufacturer and TBH this is not what WBF is about.

So let's all take a deep breath. I'd love to hear more about this system so why don't we try to keep a positive mindset.

I see your point, Steve, and I also enjoyed and was intrigued by Dave's raving review, the more because it was so positive on the Redbook CD playback that he heard -- as you know I'm a die-hard Redbook supporter. Yet I also cannot condone a sacrosanct attitude to our hobby where any negative comment is discouraged or even disallowed. People should be able to write about what they hear. If they find something doesn't sound good then they should be able to say so. I have done so several times while also pointing out positive aspects, such as here. I don't believe anymore most reviews anyway -- all those components cannot be that great. And if everything is so great, then why do people change their components all the time?

 

[treitz3]

Ed Zachary.

Tom

 

[sbo6]

Back to the system review: I've also been to Lin's place in Austin along with Slowgeezer and - considering the limited amount of time building speakers and equipment, it was quite impressive (we heard much bigger horns than in RMAF).

However, in terms of overall sound, for me the bass left much to be desired and just couldn't keep up with the compression drivers, a common problem with horns IMO. Speaker placement and appropriate treatment would help but again, bass lags mids/tweet. Mid and high integration was good, dynamic and quite life - like (whatever that means for a studio mixed recording). Also, I believe a better quality source, TT or better digital would yield great sonic benefits.

Also, from what I understand the speaker pricing is - I'll take a pair of Magico horns for that much scratch.. ;-)

 

[DaveC]

Back to the system review: I've also been to Lin's place in Austin along with Slowgeezer and - considering the limited amount of time building speakers and equipment, it was quite impressive (we heard much bigger horns than in RMAF).

However, in terms of overall sound, for me the bass left much to be desired and just couldn't keep up with the compression drivers, a common problem with horns IMO. Speaker placement and appropriate treatment would help but again, bass lags mids/tweet. Mid and high integration was good, dynamic and quite life - like (whatever that means for a studio mixed recording). Also, I believe a better quality source, TT or better digital would yield great sonic benefits.

Also, from what I understand the speaker pricing is - I'll take a pair of Magico horns for that much scratch.. ;-)

Interesting... I wouldn't say the bass was that bad at RMAF, but it wasn't amazing like the mids and highs. The system at RMAF was horn loaded >800 Hz so the woofer was playing a lot of the midrange, I wonder if that helps with bass integration? In any case, the larger speaker looks like it's horn loaded >300 Hz or so, so there may be a larger contrast between the bass and mids vs the small system they showed at RMAF. I'd love to hear Magico horns, apparently they use similar compression drivers... Of course the Magico system is much larger.



Al, once again I'll say that disagreement is ok and we all have differences of opinion and taste. It's how this is stated and brought to the table that matters. My only point here has been that it's not fair to the manufacturer to make judgements based on a quick, casual listen. And obviously I'm not alone because that's what caused Peter B's blowup, and Steve seems to get it too. I don't know or understand how this seems to be missed again, and again, and again. I'm really tired of repeating this, it should be obvious but I guess it's not... IMO, Amir made some judgements that simply weren't fair. I don't understand how he can form such a strong opinion on something with so little actual experience. That in and of it's self isn't a problem, people can believe whatever they want. The problem is when he comes on a thread like this and makes his opinion public WITHOUT stating his lack of experience. I had to go to his own forum and pull that info out, which is what started this whole mess. If Amir would've been fair about it and disclosed up front his lack of experience, the fact he never really gave the system a chance, that his criticisms might also be based on system setup in a MUCH less than ideal room, that would have been fine. But he came on here saying his opinion was equal to mine, which is total BS. His opinion is worth far less than mine because I took the time to listen to a variety of tracks I am very familiar with and have heard on many different systems. If that makes me seem stuck-up or elitist I don't care because it's the truth. IMO Amir is not qualified to have much more than a passing impression, and should have kept his mouth shut, both here and on his own forum. He seems to not understand that these systems don't just pop up out of the blue, they are the result of the efforts of real human beings. In the case of small businesses that are just getting started negative reviews have put people out of business in the past. So criticism should be allowed but some thought should be put into what you're saying as it might have real consequences.

And as far as why people change components all the time, it's for the experience and because of Audio Nervosa. The truth is there is a lot of good gear today, and much less bad gear than there has been in the past. In general it is true that everything is so great, while there may be some exceptions, high end gear performs at very high levels these days. That doesn't mean that personal preference and synergy don't matter though....

 

[amirm]

Al, once again I'll say that disagreement is ok and we all have differences of opinion and taste. It's how this is stated and brought to the table that matters. My only point here has been that it's not fair to the manufacturer to make judgements based on a quick, casual listen. And obviously I'm not alone because that's what caused Peter B's blowup, and Steve seems to get it too.

Peter provides an ideal forum for only positive praise of manufacturers. Is WBF adopting their charter now?

I don't know or understand how this seems to be missed again, and again, and again. I'm really tired of repeating this, it should be obvious but I guess it's not... IMO, Amir made some judgements that simply weren't fair. I don't understand how he can form such a strong opinion on something with so little actual experience. That in and of it's self isn't a problem, people can believe whatever they want. The problem is when he comes on a thread like this and makes his opinion public WITHOUT stating his lack of experience. I had to go to his own forum and pull that info out, which is what started this whole mess.

This is my first post in your thread in entirety:

I had high expectation when I walked in and saw that tableful of beautiful electronics. Alas, my impression was the opposite of yours. I just don't see how anyone would think blanketing all the walls and the floor creates good sound. Then again, it could all be my deaf ears and lousy perception of what is a good system.

I have bolded the key part that I hoped would keep at bay the kind of emotional blow up you have displayed. I know people go to shows and come back with different impressions. That is the nature of it. Demanding unanimous consensus from show attendees on what was "best" is something I thought everyone knew was impossible let alone expected.

And no, I did not hide anything. There is a link to my impressions of this suite in the above post. It showed that I sat through two full length CD tracks of a customer's and then the one track that I knew. That is a long time for anyone to spend at a suite. This was not, "stick your neck in the room and walk out" kind of thing.

Is it a comprehensive view of what went on there? Of course not. It is all my personal impressions, not set up as yours, as definite statement of nirvana. In that sense, you have the obligation to prove your point. I don't. This is all I said so that you don't keep saying you had to go and find it:

What Did You Think by Kelly Willis. http://shz.am/t11136991

Customer CD. Average recording and music that did nothing for me. Had to endure two tracks of this .

Rescued by this classic: Just A Little Lovin' by Shelby Lynne. http://shz.am/t45601341

Nicer than the customer demo tracks but still tiny and pointed soundstage.

And earlier I said this about the soundstage:

Part of the problem was super dead room. As you see they went to town on even the floor reflection on top of carpet that was already there. As a result, everything was pushed into the speakers or between them. In a small room, that was not a good recipe.

I passed no specific judgement other than the over treatment of the room which I backed with sonic effect in my ears, and what I thought of the music played.

For your part, you are saying you are motivated to defend small audio companies, wanting to put me in my place, etc. None of this has anything to do with how a system sounds. I want people to know that my impression of the show are NOT motivated by such things. I am not an advocate of manufacturers and if I am, I am very quick to point out personal bias in favor of company.

So there is nothing righteous about what you are doing. My request of you is to be more professional from here on as nothing destroys the cause you are after, more than an unreasonable advocate.

 

[amirm]

One more thing: you want to do a manufacturer a favor? Do NOT ask them to play your music! They have selected music that they think sounds best and would welcome the most number of people. I almost walked out while putting up with the customer CD that he had insisted on playing tack after track, while he was tapping his toe. It was not music with wide appeal and certainly not something of high fidelity.

I am very keen on knowing at all times that that this is a place of business for them. And that interfering with a demo should be done carefully. I for example used my CD when I would ask a manufacturer if they had something with bass and they did not, and asked me if I did. And even then, I made sure it was music that had wide appeal. Indeed, I got a lot of compliments on the CD I used (which was from Philip by the way).

These suites are not science experiments for people who are not interested in buying the equipment.

This is what I do to help the small companies there.

 

[rbbert]

...
Mods... please just delete this entire trainwreck of a thread.

I've never read a topic thread of interest at any audio forum where there is not disagreement and some basically wasted posts, and I think that describes this thread as well. It's basically interesting, but because of the unusual (if not unique) nature of the components used, including the speakers, there are bound to be both skeptics and naysayers. When you add in the likely price of the system it can only add to that diversity of opinion.

OTOH! there seems to be one poster following his usual pattern of overwhelming other opinions and posts via the sheer column inches of his own posts...

 

[DaveC]

Amir, lol... me be more "professional"... the irony!

 

[Steve williams]

Amir, lol... me be more "professional"... the irony!

FWIW I believe Dave is without question one of the most professional posters we have here.

I also agree with rbbert in his last post