Buying gear from a garage operation

[caesar]

If my wife and I are traveling in a far off country, I would love nothing more than to buy a necklace that no one else has. When she wears it, people wonder where she got it. But with audio equipment, which is expected to last 10,15, 20? years, I am hesitant. God forbid that guy working in his farm house gets kicked by a mule.


Another big risk is trying it in your system. Is that piece of gear that much better? I love hot sauce. But how much will I miss out if I can't get the one from Trinidad or Belize?

And will I really find out, as auditioning main stream gear is challenging as is? But finding the dealer who has that one cartridge or speaker...

 

[tony ky ma]

Tony-I used to build my own tube preamps and power amps from scratch. Like you said, they typically look like crap and they have no real resale value. You are lucky if you can get your parts cost back out of them. I would be tempted to build another pair of mono-block tube amps if someone has a killer desgin with a great schematic and parts list to go with it and it was powerful enough to drive my speakers.

Mep, What power range you are looking for ? if you try to build something that can beat the market products , a DHT SE, transmitting tube 805 or 810 is a good choice, they can provide 45 to 50 watts in SE, price of the out put tube are quite reasonable less than $100 in NOS, but if you want go for very best, the rest of parts will cost a bit like silver transformers etc, transmitting tube in positive bias is a new kind of sound not the same as negative bias tube amp like 300B, 211 or 845,also have more power as well. how different ? you will find out very easy after you hear them, I can't tell by my lousy English. I had post a 805 amp project in my early post that is a really one of the kind because separated the out put transformer from the out put tube,that can save a pair of speaker cable,
tony ma

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

Resale value of gear depends a lot on the gear. Some people say you can't get your money back out.. well, I suppose with inflation, that's true--you'll never see the buying power today at 3X the sale price of your original MSRP 30 years ago. That said, not long ago, I sold my Phase-Linear D-500 amplifier, which I bought in 1978 for $1,233 and paid off with a five year loan from Beneficial Finance at 18% interest. In 2007, I sold it to an Australian CEO for $3,050. He paid another $800 to have it shipped, including tarrifs, to his country. Now I realize that commodities have sextupled since the 1970s, so I still lost money, but I still came out ahead of the 50% rule for used gear.

As for owning one of a kind, I guess I can feel like I'm in rare company, owning four of the prototype Bassmaxx air pistons that toured the California desert as break in/demo, before they were sold to me, where they enjoy light duty work while still scaring the bejezzes out of everyone who visits and gets a taste of my infrasonic demo. The company that built those drivers is no longer in business. Their stuff was too expensive, too esoteric to build enough customer base to become profitable. It was a shame though, because I believe they were the finest mechanical LF drivers ever made, with the Acoupower 18" drivers coming in a close second.

Ah, tubes, tubes, tubes... my comfort zone. Space and financial considerations prevented me from hanging onto my tube amps that I designed 40 years ago. They looked like hell, as I was never into cosmetics, but they sounded very clean and produced more punch then solid state amplifiers of the same wattage. I was a big fan of 8417s and 6550s back in those days, when they were a new entry in the 'high power' output tube market. And still only $5 each back then. Most of my tubes came from Cornell Electronics, which was famous for 36¢ tubes. It's a shame I had to throw a lot of my stuff out in the past 20 years. If I didn't live in such a tiny house, or if I had a garage, I would have hung onto much of it. But with a wife and kid and needing every bit of space, I had to make some touch choices. The nice thing about that gear was that because I designed it, I knew exactly how to repair any problem, as long as it didn't involve a failed winding in a transformer. Matching pairs of output tubes was a tedious operation, too, so losing a tube meant compromise for a while.

Would I buy from a garage builder? If it did what I needed and I liked the sound, you bet!

 

[DaveyF]

I probably would not... I used to own Hales speakers, which I liked pretty well and thought were well made. While Paul was in business, the speakers held their value fairly well; lo and behold, as soon as Paul closes up shop, the speakers tank in value
Not saying that couldn't happen with most any manufacturer, I just think that the likelihood is far greater with the smaller - mom/pop operation than the more established larger company. So, for this reason, I now prefer to acquire gear from a generally larger concern. BTW, same thing happened to me with the Highwire speaker cables that i still own...Co. goes under- value tanks.....
Probably selling the Highwire's this year...somebody's going to get a great deal

 

[flez007]

I went through this same problem recently---I have Zu Audio speakers, but when looking for amps---many of the 845 based amplifiers are from mom and pop organizations. Ultimately that is why I went to McIntosh for amplification---as I already enjoy the sound out of my integrated, but I can have a more mainstream component in my system. I didn't want things too out of the mainstream.

As far as 845s, if I can find a good deal on a Viva Solista---i will most likely purchase one used.

I just did that KeithR, and not regretting a bit!

 

[amirm]

I am pretty bitter right now, dealing with a small company on expensive purchase: TacT. I bought the original TCS version for $10K. It had problem locking to incoming signal. Was told there is no solution but to upgrade to MK II version for another $6K. Paid that. By the time the unit came back, I had an Anthem D2 processor so it sat there for a year or so. I eventually decided to power it up, only to find the front channels not working.

Contacted them and Boz basically said the box was obsolete and there was not much he could do. I swapped out the DSP cards from the Aux channels and got the front channels working.

The box sat for a few months until last week when I tried to power it up. More channels had gone bad. After searching through, I found two working channels there. Happiness didn't last long as after a few hours I lost one of those channels too .

Desperate, I asked the software to re-flash (download) the firmware. That worked, the box rebooted and then got stuck in an infinite loop on start-up, no longer doing anything.

Searching online I find someone with the same problem. He said the firmware image was bad that came with the software and that he contacted them and they sent him the right version. Becoming hopeful, I did the same.

Well, I get an email that says to use the same firmware I already had tried to use. So I call them and speak to Boz.

He tells me I had no business upgrading the firmware. And that it wouldn't fix my problems anyway. I ask what would. He basically says he doesn't know other than must be some communication problem between the two modules so it must be a hardware problem.

Since the machine is quite modular, and these DSPs sit on cards, I ask if he can send me the main board to try. He says no. I ask why. He says he doesn't have as parts have been discontinued. I say surely he must have some spare parts or other machines sitting around. And he says no.

I ask again what I can do to reflash the unit at least so that I get back to where I was. He can't offer any solution. And keeps telling me I should not have tried to upgrade the firmware. I say that the upgrade is a feature of their software. I only selected that option and it did everything itself. I didn't even have to download the firmware as that version came with the software. So surely this is not a case of me breaking something.

I take the box apart and take a look at the main DSP board. I see that the flash memory that holds the firmware has been reworked/replaced (hate to see that with surface mount parts). And looking carefully, it shows that two pins have been shorted out with a solder bridge from sloppy work there.

I remove the short but still nothing.

I contact Boz and he says he is going to Europe and will get back to me in a week.

So here I sit with a $16,000 paper weight.

To add insult to injury, I tried to join the Yahoo group for TacT and it requires approval and no one was approving me.

So guys, please run away from small companies making complicated or expensive products. It just isn't worth it. If you are buying a $500 thing you can afford to throw away, fine. Otherwise, be very careful.

 

[RogerD]

Would a buy from a micro manufacturer,I have,and am not sorry at all,because I bought the quality,sound,and design, those attributes are timeless. There is one caveat though,I would expect to pay well below market,dealer price if you will.

My speakers and subwoofer are one of a kind,actually 3 pair of the speakers exist,and 2 of the subs were made,both have upgrades though that make them 1's.

My Platinum mono blocks are one pair of less the 20 I believe.

Does present value matter,no not at all, they are priceless, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[naturephoto1]

Amir,

I am so sorry to hear of your problems and issues. For myself, at least for my OMA speakers and my Teres Turntable and Tonearm, I know that I can count on Jonathan Weiss of OMA and Chris Brady of Teres if problems should arise. Also, with these makers, had they been distributed through a usual Audio Store I would expect that these products would quite possibly have cost 2X (possibly more) for these same products.

Rich

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

I can't truly comprehend the kind of money that you spent, but I feel for you nonetheless. My wallet only consists of coins and even at $100 I'd be pretty peeved. I hope that you'll find a resolution, although it may appear bleak at the moment.

 

[Gregadd]

I frequently find just the opposite. You can't contact anybody at the big company. The little guy will work his butt off to fix your problem. His reputation is all he has. Prime example windows Vista. I bought an extended warranty with next day in home service. They then tell me its a software problem and I have to buy another warranty. I spend four hours on the phone only to learn it's a hardware problem and the the guy shows up three days later.

 

[mep]

Call Audio Research and a real person answers the phone. Before Leonard semi-retired, you could usually talk to him right away. Call Quicksilver Audio, and Mike Sanders answers the phone. Call Eminent Technology and Bruce Thigpen will probably answer. Call for computer/software support, someone from India will answer the phone and ask you if your computer is plugged in.

Amir-Sounds like you took a $16K hosing. You should have cut your losses at $10K. If he couldn't make his $10K product work, I wouldn't have trusted him with another $6K and hope he had it figured out this time. I would be highly upset too.

 

[RogerD]

Call Audio Research and a real person answers the phone. Before Leonard semi-retired, you could usually talk to him right away. Call Quicksilver Audio, and Mike Sanders answers the phone. Call Eminent Technology and Bruce Thigpen will probably answer. Call for computer/software support, someone from India will answer the phone and ask you if your computer is plugged in.

Amir-Sounds like you took a $16K hosing. You should have cut your losses at $10K. If he couldn't make his $10K product work, I wouldn't have trusted him with another $6K and hope he had it figured out this time. I would be highly upset too.

If I need help on my VAC 140's, Kevin Hayes always answers the phone. These companies are no longer small,but when 1st starting word of mouth was a big part of their success.

Amir, with that much money invested, a attorney's letter might get the ball rolling in your favor.

 

[mep]

Amir, with that much money invested, a attorney's letter might get the ball rolling in your favor.

Or get the ball rolling in a money pit.

 

[RogerD]

Or get the ball rolling in a money pit.

Sometimes evil needs to be met with evil. A letter won't cost too much, it's at Amir's discretion to take it further.

 

[Bruce B]

Knocking on wood... I can only say I got hosed once. The company was Genex and they were one of the first to have multi-track DSD recording devices. Needless to say, Kevin Brown got into trouble with staff leaving, money/support problems and "borrowing" other people's units to support the ones that were threatening litigation... sort of like a ponzi scheme for equipment.

You can read about it here if you like.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Amir,

sorry to hear ablout your expensive frustrations.

i had one similar problem with a video processor, the Crystallio II, from Pixel Magic. it would not keep it's programing and would just 'blow-up' and freeze up on a regualr basis. i sent it back to Hong Kong 3 times to get various issues fixed. finally i gave up and purchased a different processor which has been flawless. i paid approx $5k for the (Pixel Magic) unit....i think i sent it to recycling as i did not want to foist it on someone else.

that has been my only problem with a small company which i reget ever purchasing. and i think that anything that is essentially a computer and relys on programing is vulnerable to simply not working. i've never had a type of analog device or speaker simply not do what it was suppose to do and had any problem getting it fixed.

 

[Mark Seaton]

The grand irony of the question is that the darling manufacturers discussed here as the "bigger guys" all started out in someone's garage or workshop...

With any company, of any size you have to consider the trade offs of different company structures and the according positives and negatives. The past ~3 years have proven that operations of any size can and do fail, or get purchased. A little research in who you are buying from and where they are and where they intend to go hopefully gives you some insight as to how much you are wagering on the deal as every purchase is based on some form of confidence in the future, with exception of used gear that is beyond manufacturer support for whatever the reason.

Of course I am also watching quietly with amusement as one of those manufacturers who shipped quite a few subwoofers out of a 2 car garage, aided later by 1, 2 and then 3 storage spaces. Of course I now have an industrial warehouse/office that is much more formal, but the products shipped in the past were just as good as those assembled and tested here, of course they get done much more efficiently now!

 

[Gregadd]

Lawsuits are expensive! That often makes recourse prohibitive. OTOH making a track record is sometimes more important. A documented complaint to the proper agency can be very effective. Also make sure you spoke to someone who has the authority to both remedy your problem and will feel the impact of loss sales.

 

[Bruce B]

Lawsuits are expensive! That often makes recourse prohibitive. OTOH making a track record is sometimes more important. A documented complaint to the proper agency can be very effective. Also make sure you spoke to someone who has the authority to both remedy your problem and will feel the impact of loss sales.

+1... I'd rather lose money and time to make things right than to lose future sales and my rep. This is a small tight niche community!

 

[microstrip]

So guys, please run away from small companies making complicated or expensive products. It just isn't worth it. If you are buying a $500 thing you can afford to throw away, fine. Otherwise, be very careful.

Amir,
The situation you describe is really a shame, but similar situations happened recently with several small companies in Europe. After I learned some years ago that a well known amplifier company was not able to service many of their power amplifiers only because they could not get the programmable chip that controls the whole unit any more, I started being very cautious when buying equipment with programmable devices. Most probably the manufacturer will not give you the programing code, and if at anytime he leaves business, you will have no source for this devices. It is one the reasons I keep my old Studer A80 and the VTL MB750s - I like the idea of owning something I can service myself locally.