What is the cause of PCM glare? Bad recording or Bad DAC? Anything banish it?

[Folsom]

Something other than wanting to turn it down or stop listening? More than just listening fatigue? Do you agree with the rest of the description?

Tim

The description is pretty good. I find fatigue sets in at much higher doses with more "glare" in the way you describe. With stereo's that make me tired of listening it's always an accelerated process when playing music that isn't real simple or has such things like potentially piercing female vocals, brass, etc.

Glare doesn't go away when you turn it down, but the music gets boring on many stereos with the volume too low particularly when they are already suffering from problems that cause glare. It's not even necessarily that I want it to be off, it's more like you're tired of it and want to do something else. If it's very bad yes you just want to turn it off but frankly few audiophile setups are often that bad.

It seems like the talent of a stereo makes up for the fact that complicated music begins to muddle the sound with a fatiguing nature that can certainly be described as "glare". If you think about it the DAC could be processing large single notes, or dozens at a time. The noise within it is going to have a more negative impact on the complicated stuff, and the talent of the rest of the stereo that say does timbre well or whatever, can't make up for that fact.

On several recordings where Atkins and other people said the female vocals where just too much, unpleasant, I've found that to not be true on setups with extremely well treated AC power.

 

[spazmatron]

its my feeling extremely well treated mains is the solution

 

[Joe Whip]

Glad to see this being discussed
I don't think it's the recording or the format - tested this a while ago & heard this PCM glare on a crescendo in an Oscar Petterson track (can't remember the exact one) played through a Lampizator. When we switched to a modified Soekris DAC (an R2R DAC using discrete Rs), playing the same track, there was no glare, just a liquidity to the sound. Both playbacks were at the same volume.

The R2R DAC sounded very like excellent analogue with a smooth liquidity to the sound but no lack of detail. This fragility, graininess or brittleness of the sound has something to do with noise floor modulation, probably as a result of PS fluctuation, I believe but can't say for sure.

Sounds just like what I hear with my Gumby which is a ladder DAC as well.

 

[Folsom]

its my feeling extremely well treated mains is the solution

Simple to say, less simple to do

Your formula earlier was nice with the dedicated lines and very high quality connectors. But something nearly 100% of systems lack if PFC. It seems to make a huge difference, perhaps the biggest. But it's complicated because implementations can occur within SMPS's within appliances but that's not always the best. I prefer a passive version, which comes with it's own complications. For one it's very expensive typically. It can also interact poorly with certain equipment if it's not handled appropriately. That's why there isn't a commercial version to date, by anyone that I know about. Regenerators inherently do it, but that doesn't mean their basics of operations is preferable even with the benefit of PFC.

 

[spazmatron]

i use several things but still room for improvement, like you say its hard to find the RIGHT things that work together. i don't believe there is a ultimate solution, i am yet to find one at least.

mains is the key to everything, along with speaker and room interaction... period

i have read up a bit on PFC but it hurts my brain

 

[jkeny]

Simple to say, less simple to do

Your formula earlier was nice with the dedicated lines and very high quality connectors. But something nearly 100% of systems lack if PFC. It seems to make a huge difference, perhaps the biggest. But it's complicated because implementations can occur within SMPS's within appliances but that's not always the best. I prefer a passive version, which comes with it's own complications. For one it's very expensive typically. It can also interact poorly with certain equipment if it's not handled appropriately. That's why there isn't a commercial version to date, by anyone that I know about. Regenerators inherently do it, but that doesn't mean their basics of operations is preferable even with the benefit of PFC.

I'm not sure Power Factor Correction or Spaz's idea of mains treatment are the full answer - I would sum it up as the requirement for a PS with low noise & stability, particularly for reference currents or voltages. Easy to say but difficult to achieve.

Often the internal structure of DAC chips can be the problem. I did experiments with PCM1794 S-D DACs (one of BB top DAC chips) & although they have internal structures that provide a reference current to the output stage, they also provide a external pin where this reference current can be somewhat overridden. On supplying an external low noise CCS, the improvement in sound was notable & more fluid.

One of the tweaks done to the Soekris R2R DAC was to bypass the onboard voltage reference again with a lower noise, more stable voltage & this again brought this fluidity & lack of brittleness to the sound

My conclusion, as I said, is that low noise & stability are the two qualities needed by the reference current or voltage used by the output stage of any DAC

 

[Folsom]

No, that would be absurd to think a single thing is the solution. But you have incomplete solutions without many of them. I have yet to hear anything appliances that was low enough noise that it did not benefit from AC treatment - baring batteries and such that I have yet to hear sound as good a AC.

 

[Purite Audio]

its my feeling extremely well treated mains is the solution

Your equipment should have proper internal regulation, extra filtration,conditioning should not be necessary.

Keith.

 

[spazmatron]

Your equipment should have proper internal regulation, extra filtration,conditioning should not be necessary.

Keith.

{insert passive aggressive retort of your choosing}

 

[nc42acc]

Keith how does the power grid differ in the UK vs the US? I know I would never connect any piece of electronic gear to my mains without some kind of protection.

Your equipment should have proper internal regulation, extra filtration,conditioning should not be necessary.

Keith.

 

[Folsom]

Your equipment should have proper internal regulation, extra filtration,conditioning should not be necessary.

Keith.

Sorry Keith but that's not true. You must realize that equipment (appliances) are subject to the most basic of fundamentals. Voltage division means exactly what it says. Division. No matter how good your appliances may be they are in fact only able to divide noise. Now, some do it better than others, but none on this planet can act as a brick wall.

Your comment certainly has merit for outstanding philosophy when spending significant amounts of money. It would be nice if we could simply turn our nose up to everything that did not meet standards we'd all love to be possible. But currently that's only the path of ignorance and lower quality playback.

But tell you what, you're welcome to commission me to design and build something that meets your standards the best anything possibly could. I warn you though it may require opening a hole in a wall to get it in, and if it's not on a concrete floor you'll need to add support to the joists (probably vertical). Also if you have windows it's going to block some of them as it'll likely tower as large as a fridge. Lastly I hope you like it more than having a retirement, because it's going to burn your wallet like a pound of zirconium in your pocket.

 

[Purite Audio]

Thanks but no thanks, I am completely happy with my components plugged directly into the mains, I can turn the amps fully up,
with no signal and there is absolute silence, that is quiet enough for me.
Keith

 

[Folsom]

Thanks but no thanks, I am completely happy with my components plugged directly into the mains, I can turn the amps fully up,
with no signal and there is absolute silence, that is quiet enough for me.
Keith

Keith, that doesn't mean they are not utterly full of noise. But you're happy and that's all you need.

 

[jkeny]

Keith, that doesn't mean they are not utterly full of noise. But you're happy and that's all you need.

The simplistic statement that "I can't hear any noise with the amp turned up full" is a common simplistic view of noise - it underlies the misunderstanding that noise has a secondary effect on auditory perception only perceived when sounds are being played.
It's equivalent to saying that you can't hear distortion with the amp turned up full & nothing (or silence) playing.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

OK, before we get too deep into speculating about causes, let's make sure we've defined the problem. Does this work for everybody?

A harshness in the upper midrange and treble that manifests itself often in vocals, horns and percussion, and is sometimes made more noticeable when multiplied, i.e.: vocal choruses, horn sections. It grates on the ear, especially at high volume, and makes you want to turn the music down or stop listening sooner.

Tim

 

[jkeny]

OK, before we get too deep into speculating about causes, let's make sure we've defined the problem. Does this work for everybody?
Tim

Yep, works for me

 

[Ken Newton]

OK, before we get too deep into speculating about causes, let's make sure we've defined the problem. Does this work for everybody?

I would add massed violins to the list of commonly revealing sounds.

 

[awsmone]

I would add massed violins to the list of commonly revealing sounds.

Yes massed strings r what always annoy me the most

I have both vinyl and digital ( pcm and DSD ) rigs

And this issue has always! bugged me

However I had a bit of a surprise on weekend...

I received a DEQX HDP5

I installed it and spent the last 24 hours listening

Whats amazed me is the edginess especially on massed strings has gone, I mean GONE!

I had a recording of Nathan Milstein playing the Bach violin partitas

Before, although I recognised the mastery of the player, it was virtually unlistenable to me

As a test this morning, to make sure I wasn't deluding myself I put the CD on

I started listening almost in a foetal crouch position expecting the worst...

To my amazement there was Nathan standing in a large acoustic space playing wonderfully on a living breathing violin

I note that when JA measured the DEQX, he noted it had a minimal phase i.e. no pre ringing filter

Everything else in my system is unchanged I have simply inserted it into the digital processing chain

I am mightly impressed

This brings me to thinking ....

Is it digital itself or something else? " pre ringing , phase issues

remember the DEQX itself is a digital device

So can it be digital per say ?

Please note I have had many good speakers, Mahlers, Amatis, CLXs and now Morel, the edginess was on everyone

In case u think it must be the speaker freq response

I include my Morels frequency response
This is pretty similar to that which JV described and published in his review of the Fat ladies

Please note this is quasi anechoic ...in fact was taken in normal listening position with DEQx calibrated microphone

 

[Ken Newton]

I have demonstrated much the same result to my own satisfaction. Glare and edge are not endemic to digital. They can be banished if the right system implementation details are properly attended to.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

OK, are we not, then, describing distortion in the upper midrange and treble?

Tim