LP with better dynamic range than digital

Esldude,
I can definitely say Paul Miller and his equipment is nothing to do with HiFi World testing measurements-procedures as Noel Keywood of HiFi World uses other test tools such as from Bruel & Kjaer, Rohde & Shwartz, HP,etc.
Only ones to use Miller audio research and Paul's (and also would consider Keith Howard) expertise is HiFi News, Choice Hifi, and Stereophile (although less these days).

Cheers
Orb
 
We know that the auditory system considers signals in different bands to be louder than when the signals are in the same band.
For example, equal level 400 Hz and 800 Hz signals will be perceived as louder than equal level 400 Hz and 410 Hz signals. And we know this because someone(s) did the research and measured it. We could start by finding the results of this research. I think we might have to look back quite a few years...
I'll take a look in the Bell Labs archives. Someone with AES access might care to look there.
From there, we can probably come up with a testing routine. For example, A/B the 400/410 and 400/800 Hz tone pairs above and adjust the levels until they sound as loud as each other. The difference in dB tells us how much "dynamic gain" the "distortion" adds.
Or take various well-recorded and dynamic sources. Add harmonic distortion to the peaks until they start to become audibly distorted, then back off a bit. Now compare the clean against the distorted and again adjust the levels until they sound the same level, once more arriving at a "dynamic gain" figure.

Interesting point,
but what about major chords that sound louder and also subjectively preferred than single note; this example I am talking about use of synthesizers and sustained waveform note/s that ensure same sound levels, example of the A Major Chord is 440.00Hz, 554.37Hz, and 659.25hz.
This also raises that subjective preference involving complex sounds (timbres and related harmonics) is probably more than just distortion.
One genre that relies a fair amount on this and shows the trend is dance music.

Cheers
Orb
 
I believe the HiFi World tests are done by Miller Research. They usually do a good and thorough job. You can go to Miller research for more detailed information if you register there. The info by Shure is likely reliable as it was written by their cartridge designers. They do specify an SME 3009 II arm for some tests. You think the average audiophile sets up for playback better than these guys did for their testing? The other two links would appear to be less thorough, but all share showing that with higher level signals distortion is into the several percent range. Some show the various harmonic levels though you wouldn't trust them I suppose.

Not to put too fine a point on it but the 3009 arm is pretty antiquated. So yes, I would expect that some audiophiles are going to have a better setup with less distortion. Not the least of which they might choose something a little nicer than the lowly Shures... see my point about loading just below!

I'd be far more trusting of the numbers if they provided the slightest clue about how they were obtained. I've yet to meet anyone that's perfect... leaving out the methodology is bad science. Its not even a point worthy of debate. At this point all we can say is that cartridges likely have some distortion but we don't know how much.

FWIW, all MM cartridges ring at audio frequencies and should be critically damped (loaded) for best performance. The odd thing is you rarely see audiophiles doing or talking about this (all Shures are MM BTW, and unloaded are going to ring (distort); 47K is *not* loaded!). LOMC OTOH does not ring at AF; instead resonants with the tone arm interconnect cable at RF frequencies. The loading you see so many audiophiles talking about has 100% to do with how sensitive their preamp is to RFI, and nothing to do with how the LOMC loads at audio frequencies. The loading resistor is detuning the RF circuit. Spend some time ringing cartridges with a squarewave generator and observing the results on a 'scope and this will be made abundantly clear!

Right now I am wondering how many people that think analog is not hifi have actually heard an analog system that is properly set up? For example did you know that surface noise is often a function of the equalizer rather than the LP itself?

Lower level distortion doesn't merely effect tone though it does this. It also effects perceived loudness. Of course the higher the level and more extended the harmonics the more audible the effect will be.

And contrast these tests with digital. Clip it and you get plenty of distortion. Anything short of clipping no real significant distortion to speak of at any time.

One of these formats is clean and transparent with high fidelity. Another is less than clean, less transparent and of moderately good fidelity.

Bold: We need to be clear about what is meant here as this statement can be easily misinterpreted. If by 'low level distortion' you mean lower ordered harmonics, you are incorrect. If you mean low level distortion that contains higher level harmonics or IM you would be spot on.

Italics: I guess it depends on what is meant by fidelity, likely a subject for a different thread. I don't see digital as hifi as it lacks bandwidth (I was taught that hifi was at least 20Hz to 20KHz). Not to say that isn't improving. Unfortunately digital clipping is more common than many would care to admit. With analog you get some fudge factor at overload that happens to play well with human hearing rules. So which is really hifi?? The one that more closely works with human hearing rules or the one that doesn't? Since after 30 years of digital recording its pretty obvious that clipping is here for the duration, we have to allow for it, assuming that we will never do that is placing your head well below your feet where there's plenty of granulated rock. This is an excellent example of a point I made earlier that we won't really be making advances in the art until we embrace what we understand about human perceptual rules rather than unrelated specs from our current testing regime.
 
Not to put too fine a point on it but the 3009 arm is pretty antiquated. So yes, I would expect that some audiophiles are going to have a better setup with less distortion. Not the least of which they might choose something a little nicer than the lowly Shures... see my point about loading just below!

I'd be far more trusting of the numbers if they provided the slightest clue about how they were obtained. I've yet to meet anyone that's perfect... leaving out the methodology is bad science. Its not even a point worthy of debate. At this point all we can say is that cartridges likely have some distortion but we don't know how much.

FWIW, all MM cartridges ring at audio frequencies and should be critically damped (loaded) for best performance. The odd thing is you rarely see audiophiles doing or talking about this (all Shures are MM BTW, and unloaded are going to ring (distort); 47K is *not* loaded!). LOMC OTOH does not ring at AF; instead resonants with the tone arm interconnect cable at RF frequencies. The loading you see so many audiophiles talking about has 100% to do with how sensitive their preamp is to RFI, and nothing to do with how the LOMC loads at audio frequencies. The loading resistor is detuning the RF circuit. Spend some time ringing cartridges with a squarewave generator and observing the results on a 'scope and this will be made abundantly clear!

Right now I am wondering how many people that think analog is not hifi have actually heard an analog system that is properly set up? For example did you know that surface noise is often a function of the equalizer rather than the LP itself?



Bold: We need to be clear about what is meant here as this statement can be easily misinterpreted. If by 'low level distortion' you mean lower ordered harmonics, you are incorrect. If you mean low level distortion that contains higher level harmonics or IM you would be spot on.

Italics: I guess it depends on what is meant by fidelity, likely a subject for a different thread. I don't see digital as hifi as it lacks bandwidth (I was taught that hifi was at least 20Hz to 20KHz). Not to say that isn't improving. Unfortunately digital clipping is more common than many would care to admit. With analog you get some fudge factor at overload that happens to play well with human hearing rules. So which is really hifi?? The one that more closely works with human hearing rules or the one that doesn't? Since after 30 years of digital recording its pretty obvious that clipping is here for the duration, we have to allow for it, assuming that we will never do that is placing your head well below your feet where there's plenty of granulated rock. This is an excellent example of a point I made earlier that we won't really be making advances in the art until we embrace what we understand about human perceptual rules rather than unrelated specs from our current testing regime.

I am aware of the LP playback issues you wrote about. Reading your post I am thinking if we can't expect cartridge designers to properly setup and test cartridges sounds like well done LP in your estimation is rarely well done. Such much so it sounds like quite a negative to that format.

As for digital not having 20-20khz bandwidth it doesn't take much to know what you wrote doesn't add up. I was taught flat frequency response was also part of fidelity to the original and though it can be pretty good LP cartridges and related hardware can't do fully flat response. Plus anyway you slice it, you might quibble about the exact distortion levels, but for LP playback they are a couple orders of magnitude great than digital.
 
LP is consistently good to about 30KHz; any cartridge and phono preamp can do that.

If I get the gist of your comment, I agree that its a problem when a cartridge manufacture does not know how to get it right! Plus a whole generation of cheap import phono equalizers that emphasize ticks and pops. Its a wonder that the LP survived in spite of that, and that is the tip of the iceberg.

Really, you don't have to know anything about the technical side. All that is important is what the marketplace is doing. 1993 was the year of the least LP production worldwide and its been on the rise ever since.

I really would like to know what the distortion really is that we are talking about. Since we don't know the actual value, saying it is two orders of magnitude can't be accurate! I don't think the industry really knows, as looking at other distortion articles, it almost seems as if the people doing the testing were careful to not include the methodology. You never see that when testing amps or preamps!

The setup IMO has always been a weakness of the LP. Results can be really variable if you are only a millimeter off! OTOH proper alignment of a laser head is no picnic either...

Musical Surroundings is bringing in a new cartridge that uses optics instead of magnetics for sensing the signal on the stylus. I am very curious to see what the distortion is with that too. As I have been saying for a long time, the limitations are in playback much more so than record. An optical pickup could be a lot lower noise and no ringing at all if it were done correctly.
 
LP is consistently good to about 30KHz; any cartridge and phono preamp can do that. ...

If I've told you once, I've told you a thousand times: don't exaggerate. :)

Any cartridge and phono preamp?
Would you care to qualify that statement?
 
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... which genre I do not listen to. :)
Clever that, utilising the effect to increase perceived loudness without increasing peak levels.
I did say perceived and yeah I get what your saying, but you make it sound notes and harmonics cannot be controlled to match volume when using a professional synthesizer when it can......
So I guess Ethan and anyone else mentioning perceived effects of distortion on loudness that does not increase peak levels is also not possible? :)
BTW if loudness could not be controlled then many scientific human perception/brain studies involving timbre,harmonics,notes,chords,etc would be broken.

Cheers
Orb
 
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We know that the auditory system considers signals in different bands to be louder than when the signals are in the same band.
For example, equal level 400 Hz and 800 Hz signals will be perceived as louder than equal level 400 Hz and 410 Hz signals. And we know this because someone(s) did the research and measured it. We could start by finding the results of this research. I think we might have to look back quite a few years...
I'll take a look in the Bell Labs archives. Someone with AES access might care to look there.
From there, we can probably come up with a testing routine. For example, A/B the 400/410 and 400/800 Hz tone pairs above and adjust the levels until they sound as loud as each other. The difference in dB tells us how much "dynamic gain" the "distortion" adds.
Or take various well-recorded and dynamic sources. Add harmonic distortion to the peaks until they start to become audibly distorted, then back off a bit. Now compare the clean against the distorted and again adjust the levels until they sound the same level, once more arriving at a "dynamic gain" figure.

Just to add, I think this is Critical Bandwidth when perceiving sound components within/outside:
And yes I appreciate this does not tally with exactly my own thoughts regarding major chord equivalent :)
Zwicker E, Flottorp G, Stevens SS (1957) Critical bandwidth in loudness summation. J Acoust Soc Am 29:548–557

BTW why did you say in response to me
Clever that, utilising the effect to increase perceived loudness without increasing peak levels.
when you were the 1st to raise as per your post above the aspect of perceived loudness NOT involving increasing peak levels :D

Cheers
Orb
 
... which genre I do not listen to. :)

Bah you owe it to yourself to at least own some Daft Punk, which I appreciate is much more than just chords/harmonics key pushing to rythms :)
Tron Legacy or Random Access Memories maybe one to consider.
You know you want to :)
Cheers
Orb
 
I really would like to know what the distortion really is that we are talking about. Since we don't know the actual value, saying it is two orders of magnitude can't be accurate! I don't think the industry really knows, as looking at other distortion articles, it almost seems as if the people doing the testing were careful to not include the methodology. You never see that when testing amps or preamps!

Well, unlike you when manufacturers of cartridges quote distortion numbers at the standard velocity as .5 % to 1% or often < 1% I tend to believe them. When measurements with the test records then show something like 1 % or there about it certainly fits. Of course LPs can have higher levels and with most analog systems raising the level will raise the distortion. When people do those tests and get numbers of a few percent that also seems believable. So being generous and saying one percent seems reasonable. What doesn't seem reasonable is to think lots of setups (which you already have described the idea so many are substandard) are instead going to have distortion levels of .01% or less. Levels of distortion of .01% is something which many digital products easily surpass.

So are we still really unable to agree that as measured digital has more dynamic range, flatter response and lower distortion than LP? If you include higher sample rates it even has wider bandwidth. Is that something you would disagree with?
 
Snip......
And yes I appreciate this does not tally with exactly my own thoughts regarding major chord equivalent :)
Zwicker E, Flottorp G, Stevens SS (1957) Critical bandwidth in loudness summation. J Acoust Soc Am 29:548–557
.........

Cheers
Orb

Ok funny enough my original post may actually tally with the critical bandwidth and psychoacoustic loudness summation as the critical bandwidth is roughly 1/3 of an octave.
If time tomorrow will try to dig out papers on intensity and associated perception as I am sure from memory this is also a possibility with regards to complex sounds and chords/harmonics, or possibly interval perception and interference tones *shrug*.

Cheers
Orb
 
... BTW why did you say in response to me

Clever that, utilising the effect to increase perceived loudness without increasing peak levels.

when you were the 1st to raise as per your post above the aspect of perceived loudness NOT involving increasing peak levels :D
...

Huh? I'm sorry, I don't understand the point you are making. Could you reword it?
 
I note there is a comment in an adjacent interview with Noel Sommerville, that the lacquer is essentially noiseless and the stamping process adds the noise

That backs up an earlier comment of atmasphere that the laquer has very low noise

Of course they also say that the vinyl playback adds subjectively pleasant colourations :)

I was wondering on the subject of acetates or dubs what they sounded like

Has anyone any experience with these?

I have a lot of DNM, many of which are superb, if u remember its a different playback equalisation I believe....
 
Huh? I'm sorry, I don't understand the point you are making. Could you reword it?

Maybe it is a misunderstanding but your comment
Clever that, utilising the effect to increase perceived loudness without increasing peak levels.
, to me came across as a dig about my mentioning loudness and chords.
If not then apologies, as I then take it you mean they (dance DJ-musicians) were clever utilising chords for that effect (although you may notice I linked this with regards to dance pleasure/preference of chords over notes rather than loudness that was specific to me and to another aspect of recent discussions on why LP may be perceived louder with some suggesting distortion - also for preference).

Anyway, the effect you were after I think in your post as I mentioned is Critical Bandwidth in loudness and summation of multiple tones/chords/specific complex sounds-partials, without increasing peak levels.
Thanks
Orb
 
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Just remembered,
also another aspect influencing perceived loudness of an instrument note/notes (this scientific study used piano) is the very early cues provided by the instrument's produced sound envelope.
They found that perceived loudness happened within the 1st 15ms of a piano key being struck and was more a cue than actually the true amplitude of the note when it comes to musical complexity-subtlety of instruments being played; removing this cue test subjects started to fail to identify if the piano key was being struck softly or hard, thus one could say subtle cues in the envelope of an instrument's sound have a lot to play on resolution and emotion-connection and what we as audiophiles appreciate IMO.

Cheers
Orb
 
I should clarify, my last post with the piano study is related more to cognition (so thought process-musical expectations-biasing-etc), while the critical bandwidth is a physiological mechanism actually associated with the ear.

Cheers
Orb
 
Maybe it is a misunderstanding but your comment , to me came across as a dig about my mentioning loudness and chords.
If not then apologies, as I then take it you mean they (dance DJ-musicians) were clever utilising chords for that effect ...

Thanks, I wasn't "having a dig at you", though I was being a little tongue in cheek about the use of carefully chosen chords.

... Anyway, the effect you were after I think in your post as I mentioned is Critical Bandwidth in loudness and summation of multiple tones/chords/specific complex sounds-partials, without increasing peak levels. ...

Yes, that summarises it well.
 
Listen carefully to this clip about vinyl. the guy talking is a vinyl master engineer. Straight from the horses mouth.

http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl-factory-films/watch-our-new-short-film-on-the-art-of-vinyl-mastering/

Read the very last question in this: note: do not confuse higher recording level with loudness wars which is no dynamics.

http://www.thevinylfactory.com/vinyl-factory-releases/how-to-master-a-record-noel-summerville-vinyl-dubplates-the-clash/

Here is a good interview with Ray Staff (Air Studios) senior mastering engineer.
Jump to 6:41 for section on Loudness wars: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=81pnyL9Bmag

Also, something worth remembering for other threads is Ray mentions he feels one of the biggest issues these days with digital (not done correctly whether person or solution-software used) is their studio receiving problem stereo interleaved files instead of monos; detrimental effect he has noticed is loss of detail,imaging,etc.
Starts at 0:43 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aixbF92hpEk

Cheers
Orb
 

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