Synergistic Research HFT
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Bill Demars
Well-Known Member
Very! Amazing and system changing products. Our own Peter Breuninger has it in his three products of the year. This with the FEQ brings such dimensionality to the presentation, it's as if you've changed a component. HFT's are great on their own, but "supercharged" with the FEQ. Give 'em a try-I can let you hear them if you would like.
Amazingly effective.
No darn reason why they work...
Ppseudo science or pure chance. I don't understand it.
No darn reason why they work...
Ppseudo science or pure chance. I don't understand it.
Well, I asked because I just won 2 five-packs of HFTs in a FaceBook contest. A nice guy named Andy contacted me to arrange shipping. Although my room is not rectangularly-conducive to the traditional placement of HFTs (per their instructions), I'll do my best to get close.
I'll report once they arrive.
Lee
I'll report once they arrive.
Lee
For any product that changes room acoustics, the only way to validate or invalidate is by performing measurement tests, that's fairly easy to do with proper measurement equipment. If there is a big enough difference that will show up in a room measurement. Please, to satisfy the skeptics, show before and after room measurements.
As I won these, I have no financial stake in the addition of HFTs to my room. I also lack the necessary equipment to perform any measurements that would depict a change due to their addition.
Perhaps another WBF member who owns the requisite measurement tools and owns some HFTs would be able to take up this project.
Lee
I'm surprised the reviewers that work for these audio magazines haven't done these room measurements, many of them have the proper test equipment, or at least I would hope they had access to it, since they work with acoustic engineers from time to time. I'm surprised that wasn't the first thing SR showed on their website and that wasn't the first thing done by a reviewer.
Maybe someone from Mythbusters will do it.
The Dirac test tone sweeps are generated by the IRC Measure software. I don't know if the resultant graphs that the software produces would be of any value for this. Of course I have a mic and mic preamp for taking the measurements. After i wrote the above post, I got to thinking about placing some pink noise samples on my server so that I could play them without using the Dirac app. I don't have REW, etc. here, but do have the rudimentary iPhone spectrum analyzer app. I'll see if I can borrow somebody's laptop who has REW, etc. and check this out. As I said, I won these, so have zero interest in spending $$ right now to measure their effect.
Lee
I'm surprised with your vast resources that you didn't break out some room acoustic measurement equipment to test before and after to get some form of objectivity for this type of product. It would certainly help in the validation process. I've seen companies make claims and the products that have objective measurement tests performed that are repeatable are usually products that will hold up over time, those without don't. Remember those acoustic things people attached to the back of a speaker back in the early 90's? I forget the name of them, but people swore by them, but I don't see anyone using them anymore. There was no scientific evidence that they worked.
Room acoustics is physics and there should be some scientific measurement to prove or disprove this product and some form of technical discussion that can be discussed. Saying that it's like a supercharger on a Porsche isn't a technical discussion, that's just a made up analogy. I'm sorry, but reviewers seem to need to look at measurement tests from the mfg first, then repeat those same tests and if the tests hold up, THEN do the listening tests.
I don't know how such a small device such as this would make any large change in the sonics within a room. It would be easier to buy into it if this device was larger in size, I would tend to believe that a little more than something the size of the end of a pinky finger. Seriously, I don't know how the audio waves moving in a room would be affected that much to be audible by a teeny tiny device such as this. And what's inside the box they plug in? Something that gives off some change in the negative or positive ions in the room?
I think this product should have been posted on April 1st. It would have had a far greater impact. If nothing else, I got a good laugh from this exercise.
I think with your vast knowledge and listening skills, you should contact Synergistic Research and offer to take some measurements in your listening room for them.
I don't have room acoustic measurement tools at my disposal. If I did, I would have already done so and posted before and after. I would ASSUME that the mfg can post them first and then professional reviewers would perform the tests to validate the measurements are repeatable. I'm not a professional reviewer, so I rely on them to do this.
It would certainly add credibility if there were some measurements performed and validated by 3rd parties. That's the problem with a lot of audio tweaks. The ones that do something and the effects are measurable last the test of time. The BS ones don't.
If you bought ANY room treatment product from a company that makes room treatment, they test their products, that's why companies like ASC, RPG, Auralex, etc. have products that have been available for many, many years, and one can measure the effects of their room treatment products, it's just a matter of how much treatment you use and how much difference is going to show up on a measurement test.
I've seen a LOT of room and equipment tweaks come and go over the years and this seems like it's just one of those things that gets people's attention, but the mfg has not discussed any scientific physics behind the product, nor have they shown any measurement tests. Room acoustic measurements are EASY for someone to perform that has the equipment and knowledge on how t perform such measurements. I was hoping that professional reviewers would do this, as us consumer rely on THEIR expertise to prove or disprove products and their abilities to live up to their claims.
Most of the room treatment companies offer services (sometimes free, sometimes paid) to evaluate one's room and offer advice as to what and how much treatment should be used and where it should be placed. They have software that they develop to do this.
Depending on how involved you want to get and how much money you want to spend, some of them will send someone out to perform measurement tests before, during and after to show these measurements. Nothing new for those people. But this type of product has no measurement tests posted by the mfg, which is very suspicious and the product reviewers aren't doing any either. Room treatment is easily tested with the right equipment.
Some people can read about room treatment and follow rule of thumb guidelines on speaker placement, tube traps, etc. etc. to improve one's system performance within a room and depending on what you use, it can cost very little or it can cost a bloody fortune. But it's possible to get room treatment and not have to spend buckets of money to get noticeable sonic improvement through the use of tried and true room treatment from a variety of mfg of room treatment. Auralex makes relatively inexpensive ways to improve the room acoustics and I think they can give you free advice and it may only cost a couple of hundred dollars to make at least some noticeable improvement. It's not necessarily the most esthetically pleasing product in the world, but it is a noticeable method and it's been done by lots of people over the years. There has been plenty of research in room treatment and acoustic engineering over the years, so it's a valid industry, but I don't think this thing is going to be around long enough to worry about it unless they can conjure up repeatable measurement tests and prove to the acoustic engineers this sort of product. If ASC, RPG, Auralex, or some other mfg like them were to come out with a device like this or sell the SR product through them, they would validate the technology. Until that happens, I wouldn't think much of this product. NO VALID MEASUREMENTS TO PROVE THE TECHNOLOGY HAVE BEEN RELEASED.
If a certified Acoustic Engineer was to test this product, they would perform room measurements. If they had someone of this caliber performing these types of measurements to validate the product, then that's another story. I'm surprised this hasn't been done by SR. If I was going to mfg room treatment, that's the FIRST thing I would do is consult with them during the R&D phase before releasing a product of this type.
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Then stop posting your requests for measurements from WBF members and get some measurement tools or contact the manufacturers and ask them for measurements.
If you want to prove your points you need to invest some of your own time and resources.
I'm requesting the measurements to be done by the mfg of the product and then validated by the professional reviewers, that for all intended purposes SHOULD have the test equipment, know how to use it and interpret the results. if another member has such a product and also has test equipment, etc., that would be great as well. But the ownership of PROVING a product is originally placed on the MFG to show test measurements, then it would be GREAT if professional reviewers or certified Acoustic Engineers, in this case to repeat the tests and to validate them. That's part of how things SHOULD be done for products. It's provides more credibility.
If there are any certified acoustic engineers, which I know there are on this site, they can certainly chime and in and offer their expertise since this is a room treatment product, which is what an Acoustic Engineer studies and is familiar with the testing procedures.
I'm with jap. This is the nth thread that you walk in and demand measurements, first from the poster, then you back away and claim that manufacturers and reviews must do it.
Well, if measurements are so important to you, there are leads elsewhere on this forum to about $350 of product (that can be purchased off Amazon) that will help you measure your room. If you don't have $350 to invest in something that you hold so dear (measurements), then I don't know what to think...
alexandre
$350? Well, I know of acoustic engineers that spend a lot more than $350 for a microphone to perform their measurement tests. When I had an acoustic engineer come to my house many years ago, he probaby had thousands of dollars worth of equipment, plus he had the training and knowledge on how to perform proper tests, etc. this is not something that I feel comforatable doing. If it was so easy, then it wouldn't require a specialist to perform room measurements and to think anyone can do this with a $350 product is a little naive. Even well respected engineers with top end studios with tons of money at their disposal will STILL consult with certified acoustic engineers to perform testing. Sorry, but I know my limitations with this sort of thing.
MLSSA software alone is $3500, then an Earthworks M microphone or something similar is $650 or more, etc. then there is the training. Sorry, if I talked to the acoustic engineer that I know and told him about this product, I would be in fear of him simply spending about an hour laughing and it may prevent me from using him in the future. Sorry, but I don't think a certified acoustic engineer that designs concert halls, recording studios, high end home theater/audio rooms to buy into this product. At least I haven't seen any recommend this product that I would consider a credible source. If you had someone like Russ Berger, Tom Hidley, or any number of top acoustic engineers that specialize in room acoustic buy into this product, then I might think something of it. But otherwise, to prove from an empirical and objective point of view, it is the responsibility of the mfg to offer test data and a proper reviewer would perform similar tests to validate or invalidate the product in question.
Just like a car, mfg post their performance tests and the car magazines may put these cars through dyno tests and/or test tracks with proper test equipment to validate the mfg claims. I don't know why anyone would think that a product such as this doesn't require measurement testing. Otherwise, go spend $1000 and think it's doing something special. Objectivity is what is needed in this industry.
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Well, let me just say you're not going to be measuring a concert room or an amphiteathre.
These products were recommended by a proponent of room measurements and DSPing, so if these are good enough for him, should be good enough for you:
Dayton Audio EMM-6 Electret Measurement Microphone
TASCAM US-366 4-In/6-Out or 6-In/4-Out USB Audio Interface
I understand your need for validation from a specialist, but if you're so curious about measurements, and think of them to highly, what's $350 (actually it's even less) to spend to fulfill that need, even though there'd always be better and more accurate means to do the same measuring?
You know what would be great? Why don't you put your $350 where your opinions are, and also take up Synergistic's 60-day money back guarantee offer? If they're not measuring, YOU can do it.
alexandre
These products were recommended by a proponent of room measurements and DSPing, so if these are good enough for him, should be good enough for you:
Dayton Audio EMM-6 Electret Measurement Microphone
TASCAM US-366 4-In/6-Out or 6-In/4-Out USB Audio Interface
I understand your need for validation from a specialist, but if you're so curious about measurements, and think of them to highly, what's $350 (actually it's even less) to spend to fulfill that need, even though there'd always be better and more accurate means to do the same measuring?
You know what would be great? Why don't you put your $350 where your opinions are, and also take up Synergistic's 60-day money back guarantee offer? If they're not measuring, YOU can do it.
alexandre
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