Magico Ultimate 3
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guys, relax.... I believe everybody in this thread mean well 
I appreciate Frantz opinion, and I invited him already to visit me when the Ultimate 3 have arrived and have been properly set up, so that he can build his own opinion.
Nobody has listened yet to the Ultimate 3, since the first pair has not been built yet, so we are all speculating!
I have however listened to the Ultimate 1, it was stunning, a real shock (and I have listened to a lot of very big systems in the past, nothing comes near in term of feeling "real"). The Ultimate 3 is an improved design (in particular on sub driver and upper bass driver), so I expect it to sounds significantly better... after a few months of fine tuning of XO, etc.
I appreciate Frantz opinion, and I invited him already to visit me when the Ultimate 3 have arrived and have been properly set up, so that he can build his own opinion.
Nobody has listened yet to the Ultimate 3, since the first pair has not been built yet, so we are all speculating!
I have however listened to the Ultimate 1, it was stunning, a real shock (and I have listened to a lot of very big systems in the past, nothing comes near in term of feeling "real"). The Ultimate 3 is an improved design (in particular on sub driver and upper bass driver), so I expect it to sounds significantly better... after a few months of fine tuning of XO, etc.
People have different approaches considering bass. IMHO, even in these low frequencies (bellow ~80 Hz) we are still far from understanding the interaction between room and speakers, and mostly how it affects subjectively our perception of a "great bass" and its implications in scale, and for example, as it was pointed by Frantz, its importance in chamber music - yes, once the room is correct, your mind will be better prepared to follow the micro details of the music.
Although this a Magico thread I am going to quote Andy Payor " I make it a point to affirm that the active Arrakis has no “subwoofer” section, but that the extremely light, very compliant, low-distortion twin 15” woofers, each with approximately four cubic feet of volume, should be viewed as the foundation of the system, not merely an adjunct to extend bass. Because we are not attempting a lawless coercion of nature to extend the bass response, the integration is exceptional."
What separates an "adjunct to extend bass" from a subwoofer system?
Although this a Magico thread I am going to quote Andy Payor " I make it a point to affirm that the active Arrakis has no “subwoofer” section, but that the extremely light, very compliant, low-distortion twin 15” woofers, each with approximately four cubic feet of volume, should be viewed as the foundation of the system, not merely an adjunct to extend bass. Because we are not attempting a lawless coercion of nature to extend the bass response, the integration is exceptional."
What separates an "adjunct to extend bass" from a subwoofer system?
Hi Micro...I admire and respect Andy Payor and really really like the Arrakis active. Quite possibly my fav speaker, matched only by the Genesis 1.1 I've heard. I still would use a great sub with the Arrakis.
Listening to Nirvana Unplugged, the people, the audience even really are human scale...its extremely cool when you hear it...but I wish the kick drum were equally live scale. I prefer my Nirvana Unplugged kick drum at home with the Wilson X1s & Sub...but that's just me, and my guess of the recording...and a personal preference to feel the kick drum a bit (air vibrate slightly/steadily) when I play the album. The Wilson plays the audience around 65%-70%+ of live scale but you do re-acclimate quickly and get used to it (I do anyway) providing I get the kick drum in the chest and a really really pure signal, low noise floor and pure tonality.
FrantzM - in Polish, we have this saying: If an Aunt had a mustache, she would be an Uncle. Why stop on 4 ? Why not 8 ? What If and if and if ... you can go on, and on, and on. The more the better. Speculating like this, doesn't make any sense and doesn't really add to the discussion.
I think what we consider great bass is highly subjective.
Some think the most important aspect is seamless integration with the midrange and treble. I would say that this is possibly best acheived with the bass integrated into the speaker with one common crossover.
Some think scale and live feeling is most important. Some say that there are no musical information below 30-20 Hz. This might well be true but other information from the surroundings might have this type of low frequency information. This might not be heard directly, but it is possible to feel it on the body. This is probably best achieved with an active bass section in the speaker or an active subwoofer.
Some think dynamics, slam and SPL are the most important. To acheived this amplifier overhead, bass driver area and excursion are probably the most important.
Some are very sensitive to lowest possible distortion from speakers and room. To acheive this room acoustics, digital room correction and digital speaker correction might be the most important.
The choices we make are colored by our preferences. What we choose and what we argument for in the discussions here may ultimately be comparing apples and oranges as long as we are not clear on our goal or preferance. Ones choice of solution might not suite everyone with a different goal or preferance.
Some think the most important aspect is seamless integration with the midrange and treble. I would say that this is possibly best acheived with the bass integrated into the speaker with one common crossover.
Some think scale and live feeling is most important. Some say that there are no musical information below 30-20 Hz. This might well be true but other information from the surroundings might have this type of low frequency information. This might not be heard directly, but it is possible to feel it on the body. This is probably best achieved with an active bass section in the speaker or an active subwoofer.
Some think dynamics, slam and SPL are the most important. To acheived this amplifier overhead, bass driver area and excursion are probably the most important.
Some are very sensitive to lowest possible distortion from speakers and room. To acheive this room acoustics, digital room correction and digital speaker correction might be the most important.
The choices we make are colored by our preferences. What we choose and what we argument for in the discussions here may ultimately be comparing apples and oranges as long as we are not clear on our goal or preferance. Ones choice of solution might not suite everyone with a different goal or preferance.
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Eberoth
I tend to think that when someone is on a discussion board the idea is to broaden their views and their options. So suggestions fly and I made my own based on my experience. My position has been clear from my many posts here: Best bass in a room subjective as well as objective requires subwoofers and that for almost any speakers. almost ... So for a speaker like the Ultimate I would have used subwoofers.. For almost any speakers, I would use subwoofers.. No I would't for the Gen 1.1 or the MM7 but I would for the XLF, Utopia, Q7, Arrakis, etc ... If I go for the Q3 or the Q5, they will be used with subs at least 2 , probably 3
I also believe in low distortion across the board. To reduce distortion in the bass, one has to make sure the transducers are kept in their most linear region. One can achieve such with multiple LF transducers. You limit their excursion hence their distortion . To keep the displacement high , again more drivers, more radiating surface. That is the point I am trying to make. IB, Infinite Baffle subwoofers are IMO the best when it comes to bass, because they allow you immense displacement, extraordinary output and extremely low distortion. All that at a fraction of the cost of commercial subwoofers.
Those are the premises of my position in this discussion: I have maintained it, there is NO WAY, the lone 15 inch driver in the Ultimate can match speakers with multiple drivers in the same frequency range, like say the Gen Dragon.. not physically possible .. The Ultimate will likely match such speakers up in frequency with its horns... It could even surpass them.
Now, please do tell me how that doesn't add to the discussion. What would in your opinion? Slap in the back? Congrats?
Bowing out , as gracefully as I can. No longer fun. I have presented my point of view. Stereo will listen and make up his mind, if it isn't yet.
Hang in there Frantz...I am still hoping I can get some thoughts from you on Q7 and Subs...and how you think they might stack up against the truly big boys...MM7, Genesis, etc...you had mentioned somewhere the Q7 might just able to make that kinda leap...I was surprised to hear that. Did I misunderstand? I might have...just checking. I somehow suspect XLF + Subs does NOT quite get the mid/treble scale of Genesis...where for example X1 + Subs on Nirvana Unplugged still presents 65%-75% of live scale/size. My perception of XLF is that it might be more scaleable than X1 by far...as Alexia certainly surprised me...but when I heard XLF I never heard the live-scale on medium sized ensembles the way I consistently did with Genesis and ARrakis.
Hence why I am most curious about your thoughts here on Q7 + Subs...since that is a MUCH smaller package.
Frantz, I am sorry if my post came out sounding critical. I am just trying to understand what you mean. Please stay on.
One way of achieving very low distortion with large displacement in the bass is using servo systems to correct the cone displacement. As far as I remember Genesis used this approach and Krell even used accelerometers in their big sub. It is not a new technique - I remember seeing it in Philips motion feedback speakers decades ago.
Yes, I believe Velodyne uses a servo system as well. Still, their distortion levels are not in the league of the QSubs as far as I can tell.
Yes, Arnie Nudell started to use servo system at Infinity then moved on to create Genesis. I had one on my Infinity IRS Epsilon 20 years ago, which had an accelerometer on the membrane to feed the servo... it never integrated well with the rest of the speaker, too slow.... Nobody is using servos these days, better to use a DSP.
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I have not made my mind yet on sub or not sub. There is 80% chances I will not use subs because my room is small, but if after listening to the Ultimate in my room I feel I am missing something in the bass, then I will add 2 Qsubs- my Combrio music server is anyway already set up with a 12 channels XO, so pretty easy.
My current guess is that the 15" of the Ultimate will be just perfect for the size of my room
stereo,
Re-reading the thread I think you have a very good point when you refer to your extensively treated room. IMHO, systems with many - subs are essentially needed to compensate for the nulls created by reflections that trap energy in the room that is out of phase with the wave emanated by the speaker. Than the only possibility is locating a sub in a position not close to the main speakers. However if your room is built in such a way that it absorbs this energy, may be you will not need them.
In case of doubt you do not need for the Ultimate's to get an idea of the real situation - just put two good subs in the room in the positions you expect to place the Ultimate's and measure the response at the listening position.
this is the response curve of my Fathom F113 at Ultimate position, without any EQ in the sub. I can move around the room, response curve barely moves, all big room modes have been killed.... The Ultimate have a better bass driver, with a 33% larger membrane- I am not worried about the result ;-)
Even if the sound outstanding:
1- My wallet can't handle them.
2- All but my largest room can't handle them.
3- My eyes can't handle them
1- My wallet can't handle them.
2- All but my largest room can't handle them.
3- My eyes can't handle them
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