Heard the Magico S5's yesterday

[joeinid]

stereo,

Thank you so much for your write-up on the gear combinations. I have a feeling our Dartzeel 108 with the Dagostino preamp might just be a great match on the Magico speakers. If the tone controls on the Dagostino preamp had a zero point, I'd still have that preamp. It does sound amazing.

 

[LL21]

MadFloyd,

Just to add one more detail to your speculation - you were listening to a DCS source. Every time I listened to my recordings in systems using DCS gear I discovered new layers of music in them, particularly in string sections in classical music and singers.

Point well taken, Micro. They also have HRS racks for all the equipment, etc...so I support MadFloyd's decision to take his amps to Goodwins to hear them with the rest of that system.

 

[LL21]

I've heard the S5's numerous times. My favorite was the Vitus Class A stereo amp - by far. ...I've heard the Alexia's sound incredible with D'Agostino and McIntosh 601's (yes, Mcintosh!) and I've heard them sound a little thin with ARC and VTL.

I've heard the S5's sound incredible with pretty much everything but Constellation. Vitus Class A being tops.

MadFloyd - good luck on your journey!

Interesting observations...will file this one away. Good to know. Consistent I suppose with what I believe Jeff Fritz also stated...which is that his favorite amp (for the Q7) is the Gryphon Mephisto, and then perhaps the Boulder 2100 series. Both Class A SS behemoths, exceedingly pure, effortless and extended.

 

[ricjor1]

Hmm, how to answer that one... What I heard at Goodwins (S5's + Spectral + large treated room) beats what I hear at home (Alexias + Doshi 90w + non-dedicated listening room). I heard content in classical music there that I never heard (and still can't hear) on my home system.

So many variables! I have some thoughts on the differences but some are just speculation. Here's a few:

- My Alexias have never been professionally setup. They are, however, sitting in the same general location as my Sashas - which were setup by Jim Smith. That said, Jim Smith's setup is very different from a typical Wilson setup.

- I'm using tube amps which will never produce the same bass and speed as a solid state amp (and in case someone takes exception to this let me add 'in my experience with the smaller, impedance challenged Wilson speakers')

- I believe the ability of the large Goodwin's room to create a deep layered soundstage (superb on classical music) is tremendous. I can't expect to get the same presentation in my room.

- I believe that Wilson speakers are designed to be positioned close to the front wall whereas Magicos (and some other brands) are more flexible. I like to listen into a performance and like a deep soundstage. I think someone could argue that my Alexias (currently pulled out about 6 feet from the front wall to create a layered soundstage) might sound more tonally correct when placed closer to 3 feet from the front wall. Unfortunately in my situation, this means hitting a bass node and me sitting either too far away (not ideal!) or not in the best location for bass.

- I am under the impression that Magicos are more linear/smoother in the upper frequencies. Although my Alexias sounded pretty smooth with the D'Agostino Momentum (I auditioned the stereo amp recently), the presentation at Goodwins was smoother.

- I think Wilsons are a thinner sound (in the midrange up) than Magico and that's one of the reasons I use tube amps with mine (almost feels like a necessity for my brain to perceive something close to natural body on many instruments). I think Magico has plenty of body with solid state.

So yeah, plenty of variables. I would like to hear the S5's again (and I plan to) and I'd like to hear them with different electronics. I'm considering bringing my tube amps to Goodwins to hear that combination (I hear VAC tube amps mate very well so I'm curious).

It sounds like you prefer the S5, which are 20K less than Alexias. I recently sold my Sasha's, because I'm looking for a replacement and I thought i would remain biased towards Wilsons as long as I kept the Sasha's.

I noticed how far the S5s are from the front wall. Do you know if the S5s will work if they are 5' from the front wall?

 

[MadFloyd]

MadFloyd,

Just to add one more detail to your speculation - you were listening to a DCS source. Every time I listened to my recordings in systems using DCS gear I discovered new layers of music in them, particularly in string sections in classical music and singers.

Interesting... I wouldn't have considered this, thanks.

 

[mbovaird]

It sounds like you prefer the S5, which are 20K less than Alexias. I recently sold my Sasha's, because I'm looking for a replacement and I thought i would remain biased towards Wilsons as long as I kept the Sasha's.

I noticed how far the S5s are from the front wall. Do you know if the S5s will work if they are 5' from the front wall?

When I was at Goodwins, I pushed the S5's nearly flush against the front wall. Then, started moving them out. The more I moved them out, the deeper the soundstage got. I think I stopped at 8 or 10 feet. My theory is that the more you move them out, the deeper the soundstage gets (could be because they aren't ported??). Not being ported allows for greater flexibility IMO. In Toronto, the dealer has the S5's way out into the room (10 feet) and they sounded amazing.

As for the $20,000 less, yes, that's a fact.....but we really have to listen to the speakers. I still think the Alexia's are a better speaker with the right setup (including room treatments), right amps, right cabling. They need a proper, well thought out supporting cast - as I call it. If you make the efforts, you will be rewarded with a setup that betters the S5/Vitus combo. If making this commitment isn't an option, then you can still get fabulous sound out of the S5's with less. I heard the S5's sound really good with a little Sim integrated.

In my opinion, Alexia's/D'Agostino with proper setup and cabling can be a 10/10. The S5/Vitus combo with proper cabling and setup can be 9.5. Splitting hairs? Perhaps. I just find the Alexia/D'Agostino combo to be the epitome of a dynamic, balanced, musical and emotionally engaging synergy. I think at the end of the day, financial considerations along with music genre preferences will be the ultimate deciding factor.

 

[MadFloyd]

It sounds like you prefer the S5, which are 20K less than Alexias. I recently sold my Sasha's, because I'm looking for a replacement and I thought i would remain biased towards Wilsons as long as I kept the Sasha's.

I noticed how far the S5s are from the front wall. Do you know if the S5s will work if they are 5' from the front wall?

It's hard to know if I actually prefer the S5 or not since there are so many other variables. All I know at this point is I liked what I heard.

As for S5's working well close to front wall, I don't know but would guess that the sealed box design would support that (and I'm sure somebody else here may be able to shed more light on that). I may find out in the near future as I will probably hear the S5's in a smaller room. It's quite possible that what I was enjoying so much was a speaker that did work so far out from the front wall.

 

[still-one]

MadFloyd,

Just to add one more detail to your speculation - you were listening to a DCS source. Every time I listened to my recordings in systems using DCS gear I discovered new layers of music in them, particularly in string sections in classical music and singers.

I think you make a great point. The top of the line DCS is brings out layers that most other cannot.

 

[mbovaird]

Francisco and Jim - you both make a good point. I heard that DCS stack at Goodwins and it's very impressive. But moving the S5's into one of their other rooms will ensure a different source for comparison purposes. I found the S5's still sounded excellent with the NAIM source/Sim amplification in the other room.

 

[LL21]

When I was at Goodwins, I pushed the S5's nearly flush against the front wall. Then, started moving them out. The more I moved them out, the deeper the soundstage got. I think I stopped at 8 or 10 feet. My theory is that the more you move them out, the deeper the soundstage gets (could be because they aren't ported??). Not being ported allows for greater flexibility IMO. In Toronto, the dealer has the S5's way out into the room (10 feet) and they sounded amazing.

As for the $20,000 less, yes, that's a fact.....but we really have to listen to the speakers. I still think the Alexia's are a better speaker with the right setup (including room treatments), right amps, right cabling. They need a proper, well thought out supporting cast - as I call it. If you make the efforts, you will be rewarded with a setup that betters the S5/Vitus combo. If making this commitment isn't an option, then you can still get fabulous sound out of the S5's with less. I heard the S5's sound really good with a little Sim integrated.

In my opinion, Alexia's/D'Agostino with proper setup and cabling can be a 10/10. The S5/Vitus combo with proper cabling and setup can be 9.5. Splitting hairs? Perhaps. I just find the Alexia/D'Agostino combo to be the epitome of a dynamic, balanced, musical and emotionally engaging synergy. I think at the end of the day, financial considerations along with music genre preferences will be the ultimate deciding factor.

FWIW, I find a lot of merit in what mbovaird has said here based on my own limited experiences with Alexia, D'Agostino, Transparent...and S5s with Constellation, etc.

 

[microstrip]

Point well taken, Micro. They also have HRS racks for all the equipment, etc...so I support MadFloyd's decision to take his amps to Goodwins to hear them with the rest of that system.

Loyd,

IMHO the only way to do a fair comparison will be carrying the S5 to MadFloyd's system and playing with them for a few days.

Also, IMHO, the comparison will never be fair ...

 

[LL21]

Loyd,

IMHO the only way to do a fair comparison will be carrying the S5 to MadFloyd's system and playing with them for a few days.

Also, IMHO, the comparison will never be fair ...

Yes, I think that makes sense. In fact, given the quality of the Alexia...I have actually suggested it might be worth trying (and possibly easier) to take home an all-out assault Class A amp or closest equivalent from Goodwins...and have a Wilson professional take a peek at his Alexia setup. Those speakers are so good, they deserve to be heard extremely well set up (speaker placement, speaker modules adjusted, module resistors, etc) and also superbly amplified. Hopefully, that may answer a lot of questions.

 

[DaveyF]

At the Newport show a couple of years ago I had a conversation with AW about the differences between the S5 and the Q1 and Q3 from his perspective. At the time I was considering the new Q1's. AW told me that the Q series is more analytical and true to the source, the S5 was designed to have a wider general appeal with the ability to drop down deeper into the bass. He felt that the S5 bass wasn't as accurate as the Q3 BUT would have a wider appeal. The main point he stressed to me that day was that the Q series was a step up from the S series BUT the accompanying gear had to be of sufficient quality to take advantage of the more analytical presentation...along with the listener's experience and the quality of the room. AW also stressed that in my room the way to go would be the Q1's and not the S series. ( Of course, he knew that I was inquiring about pricing of the new ( at the time) Q1's )

 

[PeterA]

At the Newport show a couple of years ago I had a conversation with AW about the differences between the S5 and the Q1 and Q3 from his perspective. At the time I was considering the new Q1's. AW told me that the Q series is more analytical and true to the source, the S5 was designed to have a wider general appeal with the ability to drop down deeper into the bass. He felt that the S5 bass wasn't as accurate as the Q3 BUT would have a wider appeal. The main point he stressed to me that day was that the Q series was a step up from the S series BUT the accompanying gear had to be of sufficient quality to take advantage of the more analytical presentation...along with the listener's experience and the quality of the room. AW also stressed that in my room the way to go would be the Q1's and not the S series. ( Of course, he knew that I was inquiring about pricing of the new ( at the time) Q1's )

DaveyF, could you describe your room so that we have some context for Wolf's recommendation for the Q1? My suspicion is that the Q3 would work slightly better in smaller rooms than would the S5 because of the bass performance, but I may be wrong. I really wonder if there is a market for a Q2.

 

[DaveyF]

DaveyF, could you describe your room so that we have some context for Wolf's recommendation for the Q1? My suspicion is that the Q3 would work slightly better in smaller rooms than would the S5 because of the bass performance, but I may be wrong. I really wonder if there is a market for a Q2.

Peter, I have a VERY small dedicated room. The room is only 11X10....HOWEVER, the room is acoustically treated and it enjoys a vault ceiling that goes up to 13'. Plus, the room is sited on a slab and has only one interior wall. AW knows my room and I'm sure that his recommendation for his smallest speaker ( the Q1) was correct.
I would agree that the Q3 would probably work better in a small room than the S5. The S5's have more low end ability although as AW stated, they are not as refined as the Q3, IMHO.

 

[stereo]

When I was at Goodwins, I pushed the S5's nearly flush against the front wall. Then, started moving them out. The more I moved them out, the deeper the soundstage got. I think I stopped at 8 or 10 feet. My theory is that the more you move them out, the deeper the soundstage gets (could be because they aren't ported??). Not being ported allows for greater flexibility IMO. In Toronto, the dealer has the S5's way out into the room (10 feet) and they sounded amazing.

As for the $20,000 less, yes, that's a fact.....but we really have to listen to the speakers. I still think the Alexia's are a better speaker with the right setup (including room treatments), right amps, right cabling. They need a proper, well thought out supporting cast - as I call it. If you make the efforts, you will be rewarded with a setup that betters the S5/Vitus combo. If making this commitment isn't an option, then you can still get fabulous sound out of the S5's with less. I heard the S5's sound really good with a little Sim integrated.

In my opinion, Alexia's/D'Agostino with proper setup and cabling can be a 10/10. The S5/Vitus combo with proper cabling and setup can be 9.5. Splitting hairs? Perhaps. I just find the Alexia/D'Agostino combo to be the epitome of a dynamic, balanced, musical and emotionally engaging synergy. I think at the end of the day, financial considerations along with music genre preferences will be the ultimate deciding factor.

The S5 would work well at 4 or 5 feet from the wall, no issue. They are more flexible of placement than the Alexia, and like most good speaker designs, if you can increase distance to 6-8 feet they will image even better. The Alexia will need to be nearer to back wall as their frequency response drops below 60Hz, you need to have the reinforcement of the back wall on the bass

What makes you believe that a cheap Scan Speak paper woofers and silk dome tweeter, a 30$ SB acoustics midrange, ferrite coils and Solen polypropylene in an overdamped Phenolic resin box will give a better speaker? the power of brands like Wilson always amazed me.... your post sounds a bit like post rationalization ;-)
On cabinet technology, see this interesting chart:


On tweeter: Berrylium tweeter of S5 gives you higher extension and much lower distortion than silk dome. Less distortion means it sounds sweeter, while having at the same time higher transparency.

On paper woofers: if you would see the level of distortion at 100dB you would laugh! place a bet: 20%? 30%?

on Mid-range: nothing bests the stiffness to weight ratio of the carbon fiber nano-tube structure of the S5. Which means again lower distortion and faster driver. Same for neodymium magnet: much more expensive but more linear magnetic field, lower distortion.

On XO: suggest you open your Alexia, replace the ferrite coils with the Mundorf oxygen-free copper foil of the S5, and the Solen polypropylene caps with the Mundorf Silver and gold and oil capacitors (also of the S5): you would be SHOCKED how much more transparent the Alexia would sound. I played a lot with XO when I was trying to improve my own speakers for fun long time ago: I have done the test. So why is Wilson not doing it? because it makes more sense for them to spend a lot of money in a nice spray painting (visible to consumers) than in parts that 90% of consumers don't think of, and using better components like the S5 would increase cost of the XO by a factor 7 to 10...

Truth is that the S5 is at $29.4k a real bargain - no wonder that the waiting list is getting longer. People interested should get one before year end, I wouldn't be surprised that Magico increases its price next year now that they have launched the S3.

 

[DaveyF]

Interesting post stereo...can we assume that you are a Magico fanboy, LOL. Actually, I agree with most of your post...except I do NOT agree that a good silk dome tweet sounds better than a Berrylium tweeter....unless you like a little "brittle" in your presentation. ( to say nothing of the fact that many Berrylium tweets ring like a bell). Albeit the one's that AW uses are much better in this regard, BUT IMHO still inferior to a good silk dome. Stereo, have you actually listened to the Alexia's?
Again, IMHO, they ( Alexia's) are an excellent speaker. I happen to believe that it's not just in the construction and/or construction/material of the cabinet that the speaker lives or dies.

 

[mep]

Interesting post stereo...can we assume that you are a Magico fanboy, LOL. Actually, I agree with most of your post...except I do NOT agree that a good silk dome tweet sounds better than a Berrylium tweeter....unless you like a little "brittle" in your presentation. ( to say nothing of the fact that many Berrylium tweets ring like a bell). Albeit the one's that AW uses are much better in this regard, BUT IMHO still inferior to a good silk dome. Stereo, have you actually listened to the Alexia's?
Again, IMHO, they ( Alexia's) are an excellent speaker. I happen to believe that it's not just in the construction and/or construction/material of the cabinet that the speaker lives or dies.

Did you get that statement backwards?

 

[stereo]

Interesting post stereo...can we assume that you are a Magico fanboy, LOL. Actually, I agree with most of your post...except I do NOT agree that a good silk dome tweet sounds better than a Berrylium tweeter....unless you like a little "brittle" in your presentation. ( to say nothing of the fact that many Berrylium tweets ring like a bell). Albeit the one's that AW uses are much better in this regard, BUT IMHO still inferior to a good silk dome. Stereo, have you actually listened to the Alexia's?
Again, IMHO, they ( Alexia's) are an excellent speaker. I happen to believe that it's not just in the construction and/or construction/material of the cabinet that the speaker lives or dies.

happy to see that your subconscious made you write the right statement
Yes, I am a complete fanboy -I better be with a pair of Ultimate on order - but I try here to bring facts on the table, not just share my personal opinion (taste is personal, and we all have different ears).
Yes, I listened to the Alexia in several occasions- I travel 200 days a year, worldwide, and never miss an opportunity to attend a show or visit a local dealer to listen to new speakers. I spent 2 years making hundreds of audition before replacing my EA MM3 and going for my first pair of Magico, so it was not an impulse purchase. Experience with Alexia was from horrible (a setup issue I think) to good (but not 50k level). Never great. Can find several speakers in same price range that I prefer, and also many many which are worse.
Yes, all beryllium tweeters are not equal. Magico tweeter is quite special because they were able to push out the break up mode at a much higher frequency, which eliminated the harshness you hear sometimes with beryllium tweeter from other vendors. My ears are very sensitive to harshness in the highs. For example, I always found the Scanspeak Revelator on the Magico Mini a bit too bright and fatiguing for me. But I have to say that the beryllium tweeter on my Q1 is amazing, even better than the ribbon tweeter of my MM3 (as sweet, but with a better ability to reproduce the complex sound of a cymbal or a triangle)

 

[mbovaird]

The S5 would work well at 4 or 5 feet from the wall, no issue. They are more flexible of placement than the Alexia, and like most good speaker designs, if you can increase distance to 6-8 feet they will image even better. The Alexia will need to be nearer to back wall as their frequency response drops below 60Hz, you need to have the reinforcement of the back wall on the bass

What makes you believe that a cheap Scan Speak paper woofers and silk dome tweeter, a 30$ SB acoustics midrange, ferrite coils and Solen polypropylene in an overdamped Phenolic resin box will give a better speaker? the power of brands like Wilson always amazed me.... your post sounds a bit like post rationalization ;-)
On cabinet technology, see this interesting chart:
View attachment 12548

On tweeter: Berrylium tweeter of S5 gives you higher extension and much lower distortion than silk dome. Less distortion means it sounds sweeter, while having at the same time higher transparency.

On paper woofers: if you would see the level of distortion at 100dB you would laugh! place a bet: 20%? 30%?

on Mid-range: nothing bests the stiffness to weight ratio of the carbon fiber nano-tube structure of the S5. Which means again lower distortion and faster driver. Same for neodymium magnet: much more expensive but more linear magnetic field, lower distortion.

On XO: suggest you open your Alexia, replace the ferrite coils with the Mundorf oxygen-free copper foil of the S5, and the Solen polypropylene caps with the Mundorf Silver and gold and oil capacitors (also of the S5): you would be SHOCKED how much more transparent the Alexia would sound. I played a lot with XO when I was trying to improve my own speakers for fun long time ago: I have done the test. So why is Wilson not doing it? because it makes more sense for them to spend a lot of money in a nice spray painting (visible to consumers) than in parts that 90% of consumers don't think of, and using better components like the S5 would increase cost of the XO by a factor 7 to 10...

Truth is that the S5 is at $29.4k a real bargain - no wonder that the waiting list is getting longer. People interested should get one before year end, I wouldn't be surprised that Magico increases its price next year now that they have launched the S3.

Posts like this always give me a good chuckle. They remind me of the PC vs Mac days. The PC guys used to trot out the statistics on WHY PC's where better than Mac's. They would talk about the Ghz processors and the video card RAM and the this and the that. The Mac people just went along their marry way.

Trotting out statistics to prove why one speaker is better than another is of no use. You can use all the specs in the world. But, I will use my ears.

Oh and for the record, to answer your question of why I prefer the Alexia over the S5? I own both of these speakers and you own which one? Neither.

Good day sir.

edited by admin team