Can high end audio survive after the baby boomers are gone

[opus111]

The high end industry has already been disrupted by the model you describe:

Nah - that's disrupting the music publishing business, hasn't disrupted the high-end industry. You admit yourself its lack of impact on the high-end in saying 'convenience has won out over quality'. Yet the high-end is still concerned with quality, convenience is some way behind.

From my reading of Christensen and, in addition Andy Grove's excellent 'Only the paranoid survive' what's needed for disrupting the high-end is a 10X improvement in the bang-for-the-buck. Forget $10k systems, I reckon nearer $1k is required in order to drive the volumes.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

From my reading of Christensen and, in addition Andy Grove's excellent 'Only the paranoid survive' what's needed for disrupting the high-end is a 10X improvement in the bang-for-the-buck. Forget $10k systems, I reckon nearer $1k is required in order to drive the volumes.

This. Blaming the demise of quality on iTunes in particular or mp3s in general is the excuse of grumpy old men. Takes one to know one and I know . You think the iTunes generation doesn't care about quality? Look at the sales of headphones. Look at how many big sellers cost more than the iPods themselves. A lot of these listeners are upgrading their experience. Can you get them to upgrade their listening experience at home, too? Beyond a decent iPod dock? I think you can, but an industry that thinks $10,000 worth of 2-channel is "entry level" doesn't have a chance. Somebody besides the "high end" is going to have to make this pitch and take this market. And the "high end" is going to have to keep selling big speakers and mono block space heaters to the same old guys who buy Porches to drive to the golf club and Rolexes to set to the clocks in their iPhones.

Until they die off, anyway.

Tim

 

[opus111]

Yep, agreed Tim.

 

[LL21]

+1 Tim and Opus. The CD was a 'revolution' that gained popularity for 2 reasons...it was much, much more convenient (a la ipod)...but it was also sold on superior sound to the little tape cassettes or vinyl. At the right price point, people will upgrade...its just a matter of 'for my personal budget for non-essentials like vacation, big screen tv...how much would i put towards better audio...AND what am i getting for my money?

People have certainly started looking at ipod docs with better and better speakers...they used to be more like those tinny computer speaker cubes...now they are quite expensive and quite good...but way less costly than any of the systems we discuss on this Forum.

 

[Thomas.Dennehy]

+1 Tim and Opus. The CD was a 'revolution' that gained popularity for 2 reasons...it was much, much more convenient (a la ipod)...but it was also sold on superior sound to the little tape cassettes or vinyl

Vinyl is at least as much about the experience as the sound. CD can't touch that experience for the purist. Unless you are selling Christmas music, CD is a dying format.

My $0.02:
How Vinyl and iPods Ganged Up to Kill the Audio CD.
Young Listeners May Embrace CD Quality Audio, Just Not on CD.

Cheers!

 

[FrantzM]

Vinyl is at least as much about the experience as the sound. CD can't touch that experience for the purist. Unless you are selling Christmas music, CD is a dying format.

My $0.02:
How Vinyl and iPods Ganged Up to Kill the Audio CD.
Young Listeners May Embrace CD Quality Audio, Just Not on CD.

Cheers!

I have both medium sized CD collection (>2500) and LP Collection (recently, inherited and at last count over 1200) ... Using my Tablet also my remote , I have access to the Internet, the Largest repository of Information ever devised. So much that I have to force myself to put the device down to concentrate on the music. Truly what is the experience that LP provides that CD can't .. The tactile impression?, the ritual of cleaning and the touch of dropping the needle to the album? I am sincerely confused.. It is not only CD that is dying but physical medias including newspaper and magazines ... Now, if you are talking about sound, preferences may put even mp3 on the map for some, else I fail to understand your point.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Vinyl is at least as much about the experience as the sound. CD can't touch that experience for the purist. Unless you are selling Christmas music, CD is a dying format.

My $0.02:
How Vinyl and iPods Ganged Up to Kill the Audio CD.
Young Listeners May Embrace CD Quality Audio, Just Not on CD.

Cheers!

Oh, I don't know. I don't have a hard time envisioning a resurgence of CDs sometime in the future after the medium has truly died, complete with audiophiles who swear that CDs, and vintage CD transports (and eventually new ones at outrageous prices) sound more musical and bring them closer to the original event than hi-res files on a hard drive which, by comparison, sound hard, mechanical, cold....

Tim

 

[GaryProtein]

The high end will survive after baby boomers, but at a much higher price because there will be fewer sales and because R&D costs money.

The problem with younger people, as a group anyway, is that they value convenience and speed above all else, quality included.

Everything has come far to easily to Generation X'ers, Millennials and Generation Y'ers. They will accept less quality if it is easier.

I guess as parents, we Baby Boomers are to blame. We, as parents and school teachers, told our kids they are all special (clearly they are NOT special). Very, very few kids are special. Different does not mean special. They are not all smart or gifted in some science, discipline or art. They are not all worthy of, or deserve what they want and they cannot all become whatever they want. I guess, as a generation of parents, we didn't give as much REAL guidance or beatings as we should have.

Finally, how many of the high end audio designers are young? Off hand, I can't think of any. They are all older, greying, grey or white-haired baby boomers and older.

I needed to get that off my shoulder.

 

[Bill Hart]

The high end will survive after baby boomers, but at a much higher price because there will be fewer sales and because R&D costs money.

The problem with younger people, as a group anyway, is that they value convenience and speed above all else, quality included.

Everything has come far to easily to Generation X'ers, Millennials and Generation Y'ers. They will accept less quality if it is easier.

I guess as parents, we Baby Boomers are to blame. We, as parents and school teachers, told our kids they are all special (clearly they are NOT special). Very, very few kids are special. Different does not mean special. They are not all smart or gifted in some science, discipline or art. They are not all worthy of, or deserve what they want and they cannot all become whatever they want. I guess, as a generation of parents, we didn't give as much REAL guidance or beatings as we should have.

Finally, how many of the high end audio designers are young? Off hand, I can't think of any. They are all older, greying, grey or white-haired baby boomers and older.

I needed to get that off my shoulder.

Gary, I don't think alot of young people have even been exposed to what a high resolution system can do. I don't think that will make them go out and buy one, but keep in mind that when we were 20, we didn't necessarily have the money to spend on hi-fi either. Not that buying bling= good sound, but I did make do with a hodge podge of stuff until I had enough money to spend on better equipment. And even then, I was in the minority (circa 1972-73), when I first started on the quest.
As to whether kids today 'have it easy,' i'm not sure about that as a general proposition, but portability of playback/absence of physical media for source material is certainly the key today- if they can get it to sound better without much expense or trouble, that's not a hard sell. But, it has to be plug and play. Even in our youth, we had to go to some trouble to select components, and we were, I believe, a minority with hobbyist interest. Today, it seems like there is a dizzying array of stuff- you need separate software to support higher resolution audio files, a DAC, decent amp and speakers (or good headphones). I'm not terribly knowledgeable about digital as source, but even with my years of experience, more generally, in home audio, it can be confusing. So, unless and until the industry can deliver good sounding, relatively cheap stuff as a commodity, without requiring alot of specialized knowledge to figure it out, I'm not sure higher quality sound will reach that broader audience of 20-somethings. (I'm excluding those younger people who are already involved in the hobby to some degree, whether they started a music lovers, computer geeks or whatever).
Even in the era of my youthful hi-fi pursuits, people often needed to rely on their family friend or buddy who 'knew' audio equipment and the choices then were pretty much down to turntable, maybe cassette deck, receiver and a pair of speakers. And that was when having a 'stereo system' was part of the package of emancipation- water bed [check]; bong[check] hi-fi[check].

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The problem with younger people, as a group anyway, is that they value convenience and speed above all else, quality included.

To the extent that's a problem, it's a problem with all people and has been going on since long before CDs. Vinyl was invented for convenience. It is chock full of compromises and quality limitations for people who couldn't be bothered to thread tape.

Everything has come far to easily to Generation X'ers, Millennials and Generation Y'ers. They will accept less quality if it is easier.

Yeah. So did we. Still do on many things. Until we developed a true passion for something, top quality is not a priority. Unless we have the money to afford it, top quality is not an option.

I guess as parents, we Baby Boomers are to blame. We, as parents and school teachers, told our kids they are all special (clearly they are NOT special). Very, very few kids are special. Different does not mean special. They are not all smart or gifted in some science, discipline or art. They are not all worthy of, or deserve what they want and they cannot all become whatever they want. I guess, as a generation of parents, we didn't give as much REAL guidance or beatings as we should have.

I think the kids are smart enough to understand when we tell them all that they're special that we mean they are special to us, not that they should get anything they want and become anything they want to be. The few that are dumb enough to feel entitled to the world because their parents love them will learn soon enough. But I get what you mean. It's nothing like the when parents told kids they weren't going to amount to much of anything unless they surpressed all independent thought, did exactly what they were told and took their regular beatings knowing they deserved every blow.Those were the days, huh?

Finally, how many of the high end audio designers are young? Off hand, I can't think of any. They are all older, greying, grey or white-haired baby boomers and older.

How many top-flight game designers are middle aged?

I needed to get that off my shoulder.

Yeah. Me too. The American backlash against kindness really annoys the hell out of me.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yes agreed, heck, there is already subculture now who praise cassette tape.

Talk about denial of science. I guess anything analog....

Tim

 

[GaryProtein]

I think the kids are smart enough to understand when we tell them all that they're special that we mean they are special to us, not that they should get anything they want and become anything they want to be. The few that are dumb enough to feel entitled to the world because their parents love them will learn soon enough. But I get what you mean. It's nothing like the when parents told kids they weren't going to amount to much of anything unless they surpressed all independent thought, did exactly what they were told and took their regular beatings knowing they deserved every blow.Those were the days, huh?
Tim

I really do not believe kids felt when they were told they were special, they thought we meant "special to us." They really thought they were "special," PERIOD. Kids today get awards just for showing up.

Both my parents were professionals. While my parents never beat me or told me I would never amount to much, when they thought I was not spending my time as productively as possible, they always said, "Gary, what are you doing to advance your future?" Even in elementary school, that never ceased to get me back to my books. I eventually did all the necessary schooling and got to where, I said as a young teenager, I wanted to be.

 

[Mosin]

....Finally, how many of the high end audio designers are young? Off hand, I can't think of any. They are all older, greying, grey or white-haired baby boomers and older...

I resent that. My hair is still brown...








...mostly.

 

[GaryProtein]

I resent that. My hair is still brown...


...mostly.

So, I guess, "greyING" or BALDING ???????

 

[opus111]

I don't have a hard time envisioning a resurgence of CDs sometime in the future after the medium has truly died, complete with audiophiles who swear that CDs, and vintage CD transports (and eventually new ones at outrageous prices) sound more musical and bring them closer to the original event...

I have a sneaking suspicion that this might already be taking place.

My attention was drawn to one of Cambridge Audio's CD only spinners (whose existence surprised me) and as part of the puff they were claiming that if you wanted to get every last ounce of detail off your CDs, you really needed a dedicated CD player, where the transport was customized and optimized for CDs. And haven't I heard somewhere of belt-driven CD spinners? Tell me I'm mistaken please

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I really do not believe kids felt when they were told they were special, they thought we meant "special to us." They really thought they were "special," PERIOD. Kids today get awards just for showing up.

The stupid kids, perhaps. But even they figure it out eventually, when they have to work.

Both my parents were professionals. While my parents never beat me or told me I would never amount to much, when they thought I was not spending my time as productively as possible, they always said, "Gary, what are you doing to advance your future?" Even in elementary school, that never ceased to get me back to my books. I eventually did all the necessary schooling and got to where, I said as a young teenager, I wanted to be.

Sorry, Gary, I'm sure I came off as more combative than I meant to be. Your remarks just struck me as a variation on "kids these days." I know a lot of kids these days. Professionals. Soldiers. Moms. Teachers. Co-workers. I've reached that wonderful place in life where my doctors and lawyers and accountants and brokers and people I count on to get the work done at my company are kids by my standards. And they all seem to be doing a fine job, unfettered by those undeserved trophies they got when they were seven. I wouldn't worry about them that much if I were you. The kids are alright.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

I have a sneaking suspicion that this might already be taking place.

My attention was drawn to one of Cambridge Audio's CD only spinners (whose existence surprised me) and as part of the puff they were claiming that if you wanted to get every last ounce of detail off your CDs, you really needed a dedicated CD player, where the transport was customized and optimized for CDs. And haven't I heard somewhere of belt-driven CD spinners? Tell me I'm mistaken please

Pity. That kind of foo isn't usually CA's style.

Tim

 

[JackD201]

Hey! What's with the dumping on us Gen X-ers huh?

Saying anything will be gone after any particular generation is just plain arrogant. The world will go on without us until at least the Sun goes Nova and burns it up.

News flash. Every generation thinks theirs is the best when they get to the sunset years. It's called Nostalgia. One could always try and stay "hip". One could actually believe it but trust me that's not what the young 'uns see. They see Uncle trying just a bit too hard to be cool.

Now let's get to the specifics. High End? What is it anyway? It should be about quality but it has another component that is often neglected. That part is how it most closely fits with the individual consumer's wants. High End Audio is the niche in the audio industry that mirrors the niche in fashion that provides bespoke suits.

Let's face it. A LOT of what's spent generally goes to cosmetics. Sure so called purists say it should only be the sound that matters. I had a good hard laugh in another forum when a gentleman from Brazil retorted "Why, is your wife ugly? Looks don't matter? You have ugly wife?"

Everyone keeps harping that differences are oh so small. Fine. Let's assume that were true and bring in the wife analogy. Between two equally wonderful women, would you go for the pretty one or the homey one if you had the choice? I dunno about you guys but there ain't no way I'm going to be a hypocrite. My wife is beautiful and will remain so forever in my biased subjective eye.

It's not about generations. Every generation will have those that are willing to go the extra mile, it's only WHAT the extra mile is that changes.

 

[Bill Hart]

Hey! What's with the dumping on us Gen X-ers huh?

Saying anything will be gone after any particular generation is just plain arrogant. The world will go on without us until at least the Sun goes Nova and burns it up.

News flash. Every generation thinks theirs is the best when they get to the sunset years. It's called Nostalgia. One could always try and stay "hip". One could actually believe it but trust me that's not what the young 'uns see. They see Uncle trying just a bit too hard to be cool.

Now let's get to the specifics. High End? What is it anyway? It should be about quality but it has another component that is often neglected. That part is how it most closely fits with the individual consumer's wants. High End Audio is the niche in the audio industry that mirrors the niche in fashion that provides bespoke suits.

Let's face it. A LOT of what's spent generally goes to cosmetics. Sure so called purists say it should only be the sound that matters. I had a good hard laugh in another forum when a gentleman from Brazil retorted "Why, is your wife ugly? Looks don't matter? You have ugly wife?"

Everyone keeps harping that differences are oh so small. Fine. Let's assume that were true and bring in the wife analogy. Between two equally wonderful women, would you go for the pretty one or the homey one if you had the choice? I dunno about you guys but there ain't no way I'm going to be a hypocrite. My wife is beautiful and will remain so forever in my biased subjective eye.

It's not about generations. Every generation will have those that are willing to go the extra mile, it's only WHAT the extra mile is that changes.

Jack: my wife is beautiful, my amplifiers are ugly. What does that mean?

 

[JackD201]

Ahhh. Count Lamm as one of the cosmetic exceptions. As a Lamm dealer however, I can attest to the fact that I've lost some sales due to the lack of glam. Actually tarting up the faceplates is an option that can be ordered. Somehow it never even felt right for me to offer it. A Chrome faced Lamm would look to me like a Chrysler 300C with a Bentley grill on it. Yuck.

One thing for sure is your table and speakers sure aren't ugly!