Non Oversampling DACs versus High Rez Hype

[LL21]

This behaviour by audiophiles always amazes me, the need to jump tracks, only listen to the "good" tracks, change to a "better" recording. I never, ever do this; I put on an album and listen from the beginning to the end, and "enjoy the music", as people here keep berating me to do!! If it's not sounding "right" then I know that the system has a problem, a real problem, not that the recording only has a few "good bits".

Way back when I first got "good" sound I found that it was quite disturbing to just press the Stop button if I had to; I started the habit of sliding the volume down to zero to gracefully disconnect from the replay, which I do to this day.

Frank

Hi Frank. Agree. I suppose it depends on whether one wishes to have a system to listen to music, or music reproduction...or at the extreme, sound reproduction. I do wonder whether some people are just in search of the never-ending decay, or the infinite dynamics, or the pitch perfect limitless bass... I suppose thats fine...to each his own. I find that my goal is the former...when the system is set up right, i am listening to music and forget to dissect how good a reproduction of the original recording it might or might not be. But i admit i do focus on technical sound production performance to a degree and cannot stand it when the system is not performing properly and 'gets in the way' of whatever makes me just enjoy the music.

At the moment, the only thing that does this is when my tubes get noisy. Otherwise, i am perfectly content to listen to music. The only thing i remain curious to try is the matching transport to my DAC.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

This behaviour by audiophiles always amazes me, the need to jump tracks, only listen to the "good" tracks, change to a "better" recording. I never, ever do this; I put on an album and listen from the beginning to the end, and "enjoy the music", as people here keep berating me to do!! If it's not sounding "right" then I know that the system has a problem, a real problem, not that the recording only has a few "good bits".

Way back when I first got "good" sound I found that it was quite disturbing to just press the Stop button if I had to; I started the habit of sliding the volume down to zero to gracefully disconnect from the replay, which I do to this day.

Frank

The reason why this completely amazes you, Frank is because you've completely misunderstood what people are reacting to. I listen to whole albums all the way through most of the time myself. I put on Spotify and Pandora and let their low bit rates run for hours. Millions of people do, blissfully unaware of the fact that they are supposed to have turned off the music hours ago when they became irritated, exhausted, utterly spent by the horrible distortion. Only audiophiles experience listening fatigue, it seems. But back on track, it's not the fact that you don't experience it that labels you. It's why you think audiophiles get listening fatigue, and how you think it can be fixed that has earned you your crazy uncle of WBF badge. You wear it well. It has been a long time coming, but I'm almost to the point of enjoying it a bit.

To quote the amazing Elvis Costello, singer, songwriter, band leader and man who married exceedingly well -- "Well I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused."



Tim

 

[fas42]

But back on track, it's not the fact that you don't experience it that labels you. It's why you think audiophiles get listening fatigue, and how you think it can be fixed that has earned you your crazy uncle of WBF badge. You wear it well. It has been a long time coming, but I'm almost to the point of enjoying it a bit.

To quote the amazing Elvis Costello, singer, songwriter, band leader and man who married exceedingly well -- "Well I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused."



Tim

Well, as least you smiled, Tim!!

I do apologise for thinking that audiophiles find distortion disturbing and fatiguing, and that there are any means outside of the manufacturers' hallowed halls of creation for doing anything about it; for that great misjudgement I truly, humbly, bow my head ... :b

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Well, as least you smiled, Tim!!

I do apologise for thinking that audiophiles find distortion disturbing and fatiguing, and that there are any means outside of the manufacturers' hallowed halls of creation for doing anything about it; for that great misjudgement I truly, humbly, bow my head ... :b

Frank

Elegant hyperbole. Salute!

Tim

 

[LL21]

Tough to argue what I was hearing was taste related. I couch my comments with the disclaimer that I have not heard one of these in my system yet. I will have the full Ypsilon digital front end in my system next week and will report. In a hobby where there are few absolutes, this was one of them. Strings absolutely did not have a steely quality, brass absolutely didn't have a painful bite, etc. However, what I was hearing may have more to do with the tube analog stage than the non oversampling.

Hi BFlowers,

Was just following up on this as i continue to consider Zanden Transport for my Zanden vs switching to Stahl-Tek Opus. Any updates on your views regarding NOS Tube DACs?

 

[KeithR]

I had a Havana in last week and compared to my BADA- i almost fell asleep and there was clearly information missing. Ymmv. It also had WE upgraded tubes, so not a stock tube issue.

 

[jkeny]

What was described at the beginning of this thread, brightness & harshness, to me is not due to OS - it is the result of jitter & noise - what is often called digititus!

In order to answer "is it better or just different" we have to evaluate some instruments that we know the sound of. The voice is one such instrument - I listen for sibilance on female voices. I also listen for the difficult one like applause, cymbal brushes - usually HF, fast transient sounds. Of course the quality of the recording comes into play.

I agree with Don, the digital filter would seem to me also to be one of the major issues in all this, another being the NOS HF roll-off. There may be other issues too. I can tell you that a PCM5102 DAC has two selectable digital interpolation - one a FIR filter with pre-ringing, the other a low latency, IIR filter with no pre-ringing.
The IIR filter brings the sound close to the sound of NOS that I have heard which would bear up Don's point. Is this due to the pre-ringing or low latency or something else? And yes high res does sound noticeably better than 16/44.
I don't have too much experience of NOS DACs - TDA1543, TDA1545 & the best one I've have is the Metrum referenced earlier.

 

[LL21]

I had a Havana in last week and compared to my BADA- i almost fell asleep and there was clearly information missing. Ymmv. It also had WE upgraded tubes, so not a stock tube issue.

Thanks, Keith. Never heard the Havana. What is your current digital reference?

 

[LL21]

Nevermind...i google'd it. BADA is the Berkeley Audio DAC...got it. Thanks.

 

[LL21]

Hi BFlowers,

Any update on your search for digital? How did the Ypsilon digital audition at home go? Just curious if you've come across anything that you like enough to consider seriously. Per chance have you spent any more time with Zanden? Would appreciate any thoughts you have on how it compares to other digital you have heard. Thanks!

 

[jkeny]

I have a 32/384KHz DAC just finished being reviewed in 6Moons & Paul Candy was asking me where to send it to next. If anyone wants to audition this in their own system, PM me.

 

[flez007]

I have a 32/384KHz DAC just finished being reviewed in 6Moons & Paul Candy was asking me where to send it to next. If anyone wants to audition this in their own system, PM me.

I would love to see what Bruce thinks about it and compare it to the Mitech! Bruuuuuuuuce!!!

 

[jkeny]

I would love to see what Bruce thinks about it and compare it to the Mitech! Bruuuuuuuuce!!!

Andre Marc has already been in touch & will be getting it first.
Depending on the logistics of this, I'm happy to consider passing it onwards.
In fact if there is an interest I could consider a travelling unit to be auditioned by interested members (with a posting history).
I would have to check with the moderators if this is OK!

EDIT:Who is Bruce & what is the Mitech? Sorry, I'm still a noob

 

[flez007]

Sorry, I thought the unit was a DAC (and consistent to the post original thread line) - my fault since I did not follow it throughly. Good luck with the review from Andre.

 

[jkeny]

Sorry, I thought the unit was a DAC (and consistent to the post original thread line) - my fault since I did not follow it throughly. Good luck with the review from Andre.

Huh? It is a DAC

 

[flez007]

Sunday glaze!

I went thru the 6moons review quickly and focused on the USB/SPDF converter....sorry (hope it is the last one) again.

 

[jkeny]

Sunday glaze!

I went thru the 6moons review quickly and focused on the USB/SPDF converter....sorry (hope it is the last one) again.

Ah, I see, yes there are a number of devices - a USB to SPDIF device & two DACs!
It looks like Andre may not be able to review the DAC after all so if others are interested, PM me

 

[flez007]

http://mytekdigital.com/download_library/stereo192-dsd-dac_new_product_release_july_2011.pdf <--Mytek DAC


http://www.whatsbestforum.com/member.php?60-Bruce-B <-- Bruce

 

[jkeny]

Yes an interesting device the Mytek, I would love to compare the DAC32 to it.
Here's an excerpt email just in from a user who is auditioning my DAC:

jkdac32 >~ hegel hd11 > M2tech Young > Audiolab M-DAC > Arcam RDAC

 

[flez007]

I had a Havana in last week and compared to my BADA- i almost fell asleep and there was clearly information missing. Ymmv. It also had WE upgraded tubes, so not a stock tube issue.

Keith, there are two Havanas, the one to consider is the balanced version (2 tubes), mine has NOS tubes (huge difference over the stock unit) and modified by the Upgrade Company in some specific areas like the AC caps, and vibration control within the board.