Refinement or Raw, Which Amp Signature Wins for You?

[exupgh12]

I’ve been shifting between a few high-end amps, and it’s funny how each one sends you down a completely different path. One gives you that musical cohesion and refinement that pulls you in, while another goes all in on dynamic authority and transparency, the kind that makes you hear things you weren’t even sure existed.
At the level of high-end amplification today, everything sounds top tier. Nothing feels compromised until you sit them side by side and the small differences start poking through.

The real question: if you had to choose your path from the start, would you go for musical flow and finesse, or the full power package with maximum honesty, or have you found an amp that manages to combine both worlds?

 

[Porsche]

neutrality, dynamics, authority and resolution, burmester 159 monos

 

[Mike Lavigne]

find musical cohesion and refinement in an amplifier, and then choose a speaker that allows that amp to have dynamic authority and transparency.

or visa versa.

in 2001 i switched from Wilson WP 6.0's and ML 33 mono blocks with dynamics and authority to Tenor Audio 75 OTL's and Kharma Exquisite 1D's with added cohesion and refinement that delivered immersion and connection and flow.

 

[Al M.]

neutrality, dynamics, authority and resolution,

...same here, with Octave RE 320 tube amp. However, my cone speakers are very easy to drive (system, see signature). For most non-horns I would probably choose an SS power amp.

 

[gadawg58]

So since hearing and subsequently purchasing the VAC Statement 452IQ Monoblocks I’ve just enjoyed the music. With these amps I find it difficult to try and describe what they do other than just sound like music. Of course everyone has their favorite flavor and I clearly found mine. I quit looking when I stopped feeling the need to analyze what I was hearing. Good luck on your quest!

George

 

[exupgh12]

neutrality, dynamics, authority and resolution, burmester 159 monos

Well, I hope they at least know to make good coffee.
At this level i would not expect any compromise on amplifiers behavior, sound, and abilities

 

[exupgh12]

musical cohesion and refinement in an amplifier, and then choose a speaker that allows that amp to have dynamic authority and transparency.

or visa versa.

in 2001 i switched from Wilson WP 6.0's and ML 33 mono blocks with dynamics and authority to Tenor Audio 75 OTL's and Kharma Exquisite 1D's with added cohesion and refinement that delivered immersion and connection and flow.

I can identified with this approach Mike.
So far the longest equipment in my system are the power amps and pre. Speakers and sources had changed, but the heart stayed.

 

[exupgh12]

...same here, with Octave RE 320 tube amp. However, my cone speakers are very easy to drive (system, see signature). For most non-horns I would probably choose an SS power amp.

Or tube amp like the big VAC, or C.A.T that can move not so efficient speakers.
Al ought tube communicate with musical and warm sound, it not always the case and relates to what the designer wanted to achieve, audio research as an example for tube amp that don’t sound like most tube amps.

 

[exupgh12]

D

So since hearing and subsequently purchasing the VAC Statement 452IQ Monoblocks I’ve just enjoyed the music. With these amps I find it difficult to try and describe what they do other than just sound like music. Of course everyone has their favorite flavor and I clearly found mine. I quit looking when I stopped feeling the need to analyze what I was hearing. Good luck on your quest!

George

Hi Greg, did your previous amplification where SS, or tube?

 

[gadawg58]

Well, I hope they at least know to make good coffee.
At this level i would not expect any compromise on amplifiers behavior, sound, and abilities

Not necessarily compromises but at any level there are design choices ... some of which will resonate with some folks and some will resonate with others. That's what makes this so much fun as there are many different options out there! Enjoy!

George

 

[213Cobra]

Refinement or Raw -- I don't see it as a choice. If an amp only delivers one of those, it's intrinsically insufficient. The loudspeaker has to be part of the equation. There are a lot of "refined" amps that cannot be raw because they are paired with the wrong speaker to enable both, but the right match can allow said amp to deliver fury. The amp might be relatively low powered and mated to a relatively inefficient speaker forcing a fairly complex crossover on the amp, too. In general, one advantage of speaker efficiency (if reasonably objective sonics are part of the deal) is that a much broader array of amps can sound raw and refined, as appropriate to the music, especially if efficiency is combined with relatively high power handling.

Driving 101dB/W/m Zu Definition 6, my 52W Absolare Altius 845 mono pair, having excellent headroom, are capable of both highly refined articulation & tone, and when it's called for, abject violence -- as is also true for the speaker. On an 83dB - 90dB efficiency speaker, they would only deliver refinement. But on the Zu Def 6, I can also get refinement and surprisingly raw violence out of a pair of 6W PX25 monos, or 18W of either p-p EL34 Williamson or KT150 SE Tetrode monoblocks.

An amp that can deliver refined sound without fireworks is overall more useful -- reminiscent of the old "British Sound." An amp that can only deliver a raw signature is not very useful in fidelity terms, but might be very entertaining to some listeners. I think you have to aim for both, and for that, the amp/speaker interaction is the prime consideration.

Phil

 

[Al M.]

Refinement or Raw -- I don't see it as a choice. If an amp only delivers one of those, it's intrinsically insufficient. The loudspeaker has to be part of the equation. There are a lot of "refined" amps that cannot be raw because they are paired with the wrong speaker to enable both, but the right match can allow said amp to deliver fury. The amp might be relatively low powered and mated to a relatively inefficient speaker forcing a fairly complex crossover on the amp, too. In general, one advantage of speaker efficiency (if reasonably objective sonics are part of the deal) is that a much broader array of amps can sound raw and refined, as appropriate to the music, especially if efficiency is combined with relatively high power handling.

Driving 101dB/W/m Zu Definition 6, my 52W Absolare Altius 845 mono pair, having excellent headroom, are capable of both highly refined articulation & tone, and when it's called for, abject violence -- as is also true for the speaker. On an 83dB - 90dB efficiency speaker, they would only deliver refinement. But on the Zu Def 6, I can also get refinement and surprisingly raw violence out of a pair of 6W PX25 monos, or 18W of either p-p EL34 Williamson or KT150 SE Tetrode monoblocks.

An amp that can deliver refined sound without fireworks is overall more useful -- reminiscent of the old "British Sound." An amp that can only deliver a raw signature is not very useful in fidelity terms, but might be very entertaining to some listeners. I think you have to aim for both, and for that, the amp/speaker interaction is the prime consideration.

Phil

Well said. The right match between amp and speaker is needed. Indeed, those who dismiss tube amps off hand usually do not have efficient speakers.

Nothing wrong with less efficient speakers per se, but it may take an enormous amount of juice to really make them sing. In that case high-power solid state is the answer.

 

[exupgh12]

@213Cobra @Al M.

Even among high-power capable amplifiers like the D'Agostino Relentless, CH Precision M10, Soulution 711, Goldmund Telos 2800, VAC Statement 450, and Boulder 3150, which can virtually drive any speaker, they exhibit distinct sonic signatures. These amps prioritize different strengths that prevent universal performance across all pairings.

 

[microstrip]

It is not a dichotomy - many times the more powerful amplifiers have more musical flow and finesse than the less powerful ones. Think about the old Krell amplifiers or the current VTL's.

 

[Al M.]

It is not a dichotomy - many times the more powerful amplifiers have more musical flow and finesse than the less powerful ones. Think about the old Krell amplifiers or the current VTL's.

That depends. It's apparently harder to make more power sound really good. About 35 years ago a friend and I compared 3 Rotel amplifiers for his quite easy to drive speakers. They were 60, 90 and 120 W/ch, respectively, and in the same price class (obviously, with the more powerful ones being somewhat more expensive).

The 60 W/ch amp sounded the most lively and dynamic, as well as the most refined, and the differences were not subtle. The 120 W/ch amp sounded the most lifeless.

Of course, had his speakers been harder to drive, the verdict might have been different.

My friend bought the 60 W/ch amp.

 

[gadawg58]

Refinement or Raw -- I don't see it as a choice. If an amp only delivers one of those, it's intrinsically insufficient. The loudspeaker has to be part of the equation. There are a lot of "refined" amps that cannot be raw because they are paired with the wrong speaker to enable both, but the right match can allow said amp to deliver fury. The amp might be relatively low powered and mated to a relatively inefficient speaker forcing a fairly complex crossover on the amp, too. In general, one advantage of speaker efficiency (if reasonably objective sonics are part of the deal) is that a much broader array of amps can sound raw and refined, as appropriate to the music, especially if efficiency is combined with relatively high power handling.

Driving 101dB/W/m Zu Definition 6, my 52W Absolare Altius 845 mono pair, having excellent headroom, are capable of both highly refined articulation & tone, and when it's called for, abject violence -- as is also true for the speaker. On an 83dB - 90dB efficiency speaker, they would only deliver refinement. But on the Zu Def 6, I can also get refinement and surprisingly raw violence out of a pair of 6W PX25 monos, or 18W of either p-p EL34 Williamson or KT150 SE Tetrode monoblocks.

An amp that can deliver refined sound without fireworks is overall more useful -- reminiscent of the old "British Sound." An amp that can only deliver a raw signature is not very useful in fidelity terms, but might be very entertaining to some listeners. I think you have to aim for both, and for that, the amp/speaker interaction is the prime consideration.

Phil

You're speaking in absolute terms and I'm speaking in terms of degree of how much of either of those an amp will deliver. Most amplifiers don't deliver one quality in lue of another (I'll agreee some do but not all or even most would be my argument). they simply stand out in one area more so than another. It can be by a wider margin (more to what you are saying) or much smaller margin such that the amp is only slightly leaning one direction or the other. That said, most systems that I've heard don't have a perfect balance of refinement and raw power. There are choices that the designers make and that we make as consumers. Heck .. I bet a bunch of us wouldn't even agree on the degree to how refined a particular product that is generally considered to be refined actually is. That said I also agree that system synergy is critical. I recently heard a low power beautiful sounding tube setup with some relatively ineffectient speakers. At 60db it sounded incredible. It simply couldn't deliver much beyond that. The owner listens at low volumes only so while I would say that the system was totally lacking power for me it was perfect for him. I wouldn't say that amplier or even his setup is insufficient as it meets his needs perfectly. So maybe what I've done is simply added another variable to the equation .. user preference which gets back to ... choices. Enjoy!

George

 

[Al M.]

You're speaking in absolute terms and I'm speaking in terms of degree of how much of either of those an amp will deliver. Most amplifiers don't deliver one quality in lue of another (I'll agreee some do but not all or even most would be my argument). they simply stand out in one area more so than another. It can be by a wider margin (more to what you are saying) or much smaller margin such that the amp is only slightly leaning one direction or the other. That said, most systems that I've heard don't have a perfect balance of refinement and raw power. There are choices that the designers make and that we make as consumers. Heck .. I bet a bunch of us wouldn't even agree on the degree to how refined a particular product that is generally considered to be refined actually is.

A competent system must equally navigate the refinement of the sound of a string quartet and the raw visceral power and drive of Black Sabbath (not that a string quartet can't sound visceral either). And in orchestral music it needs to combine these elements to a satisfying maximal level.

That said I also agree that system synergy is critical. I recently heard a low power beautiful sounding tube setup with some relatively ineffectient speakers. At 60db it sounded incredible. It simply couldn't deliver much beyond that. The owner listens at low volumes only so while I would say that the system was totally lacking power for me it was perfect for him. I wouldn't say that amplier or even his setup is insufficient as it meets his needs perfectly. So maybe what I've done is simply added another variable to the equation .. user preference which gets back to ... choices. Enjoy!

George

A system that can't play at more realistic levels of 90 dB to 100 dB peaks would not be interesting to me as one that I would want to own.

 

[gadawg58]

A competent system must equally navigate the refinement of the sound of a string quartet and the raw visceral power and drive of Black Sabbath (not that a string quartet can't sound visceral either). And in orchestral music it needs to combine these elements to a satisfying maximal level.



A system that can't play at more realistic levels of 90 dB to 100 dB peaks would not be interesting to me as one that I would want to own.

I think we maybe on the same page to a degee ... your first statement is the point I've been discussing where you said ... "Refinement or Raw -- I don't see it as a choice. If an amp only delivers one of those, it's intrinsically insufficient". Later you've said "system" which I totally agree with. I think its possible for say a SET amp to deliver amazing refinement but incredibly insufficent rawness (New word?) with an ineffecient pair of speakers but be able to deliver both in spades with say a very efficient horn speaker. Of couse everyone doesn't like Horns so I think equipment designers have to make choices ... I haven't found the perfect amp yet that can do everything with every type of speaker. I love my VAC Statement amps drving my Wilson Alexx speakers but there are other more refined amps out there that couldn't come close to making these speakers sing and there are much more powerful beasts out there that lack some of qualities of the VAC that I love. I maintain its all about choices and If there is a perfect amp that is both perfectly refined and has unlimited raw power I'd love to hear it!

Cheers

George