Mark Levinson on today’s audio industry

[wil]

Yes, there are. I do not have one. And like the DCS or Wadax, such a turntable would cost more than my entire system.

Indeed, just pointing out that, contrary to the emphasis of your post, extreme pricing is not limited to dacs.

 

[PeterA]

Indeed, just pointing out that, contrary to the emphasis of your post, extreme pricing is not limited to dacs.

I understand. I mentioned ultra expensive DACs specifically in my post to Fransisco because he just bought one. I wanted to emphasize my point about absurd pricing when a decent system costs less than one component. We could mention amps and speakers too.

 

[Kingrex]

A guy I know is making speakers. A pyramid. Partical board core with bamboo over the top. Dayton drivers and dayton crossover. He's on his second attempt refining the process. He says his first attempt is better than his Focal speakers. A $14,000 model. Hes about $3000 a pair for all the parts. Wood, drivers etc. Not sure what i'm saying outside.A very good speaker can be built for not much money.

I was fed a video last night, but could not pull a static shot. It was in Italian and about Sonus Faber speakers. There was a a brief top down image of a speaker with the top off. it looked like a mountain range with peaks, valley's and panicles. I assume to break up standing waves. It was very interesting. It seemed a whole lot more than simple bracing. It probably had to be modified for every driver. Although, I assume, once you have the basic formula, computer modeling would make design and CNC super fast and easy.

FWIW the guy I know walks around pounding his chest saying his system is world class. Almost to an annoying degree. But he has spent a large amount of time tuning the room and system. And he uses BACCH to control it all. He has used BACCH and a 6 channel amp to drive the home made speakers. But he prefers a passive crossover. Passive is not as linear and refined. But he likes it.

The small stand mount are his version 2. The large ones he finds don't need the subs in the back. He is designing the smaller ones to go with the subs.

 

[Kingrex]

Can any one make a turntable sounding exactly the same at half the cost? IMO is the main point about it, but surely audio gossip is part of WBF.

The high-end is an hobby of the differences - as long as something sounds different is becomes a valid entry.

Half? How about 1/10. Or 1/20th. A stellar TT should not cost more than $20,000.

 

[microstrip]

Half? How about 1/10. Or 1/20th. A stellar TT should not cost more than $20,000.

You missed my main point. I was not addressing stellar performance, just having exactly the same sound. Free from preference!

 

[microstrip]

I understand. I mentioned ultra expensive DACs specifically in my post to Fransisco because he just bought one.
I wanted to emphasize my point about absurd pricing when a decent system costs less than one component. We could mention amps and speakers too.

No I should feel better. If I get the XVXs my DAC price is not absurd anymore?

IMO the rule that a decent system should not costs more than any component is absurd.

 

[jeff1225]

It is not just the Japanese. There is a massive Lansing heritage community in the US, just on other forums including one dedicated to it. WBF etc are dedicated to different equipment.

The Japanese pioneered SET in the 1970's. Names like Shindo, Kondo, Keneta, Sakuma, etc. led this revolution. This was brought to Europe by Higara, and to the USA by Don Garber.

30 Years of Revelation III

SME tonearm tonarm conversion kit vintage tube amplifier DHT vintage Tannoy speaker speakers enclosures cabinets, horn, baffle, western electric

truefi.blogspot.com

 

[Another Johnson]

Half? How about 1/10. Or 1/20th. A stellar TT should not cost more than $20,000.

The president of a large US based TT and RCM company once said in a panel discussion that anything over $8k for a TT is “audio jewelry.”

Accounting for inflation since that time, $12k would more than cover it.

But … based on my personal experiences with TTs over decades, related to current times and exchange rates, some manufacturers give you a heck of a lot better sound quality for $20k than others. And in spite of $12k TTs being generally good efforts, serious auditions in good systems tell my ears that it takes more than $12k to get to the upper echelon.

 

[bonzo75]

The Japanese pioneered SET in the 1970's. Names like Shindo, Kondo, Keneta, Sakuma, etc. led this revolution. This was brought to Europe by Higara, and to the USA by Don Garber.

30 Years of Revelation III

SME tonearm tonarm conversion kit vintage tube amplifier DHT vintage Tannoy speaker speakers enclosures cabinets, horn, baffle, western electric

truefi.blogspot.com

70s yes. But in the last few years US has a sizeable community

 

[Kingrex]

You missed my main point. I was not addressing stellar performance, just having exactly the same sound. Free from preference!

That's not possible. So why float the idea?

I find it more relevant to say, prepare yourselves all, trigger word coming. I find it more relevant to sit a group in a "blind" test and play a $200,000 TT and a $20,000 TT. I would not be surprised if many would have a hard time distinguishing the two apart. And the differences could be very subtle. To Vandersteins point, the heroic efforts and materials required to make a expensive TT don't necessarily get you better. Sometimes they do. But that would be more a fault of the lesser product than a doing right with the more expensive.

The talk of Altec and such is just moving the sound signature to something radically different that some gravitate too. That is not about the topic at hand.

 

[PeterA]

No I should feel better. If I get the XVXs my DAC price is not absurd anymore?

IMO the rule that a decent system should not costs more than any component is absurd.

Who said anything about a rule? I’m simply sharing an observation. And it is not “any” component, it is the most expensive components. There are DACs for $300,000 and turntables for $500,000 and speakers for $900,000. I think members of the hobby should be able to assemble a decent system that costs less than any of those extremely expensive components.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

That's not possible. So why float the idea?

I find it more relevant to say, prepare yourselves all, trigger word coming. I find it more relevant to sit a group in a "blind" test and play a $200,000 TT and a $20,000 TT. I would not be surprised if many would have a hard time distinguishing the two apart. And the differences could be very subtle. To Vandersteins point, the heroic efforts and materials required to make a expensive TT don't necessarily get you better. Sometimes they do. But that would be more a fault of the lesser product than a doing right with the more expensive.

if you can play particular passages of pressings then certain attributes jump out clearly when in direct compare. but this also involves tonearms and cartridges. but i'm not saying that price hierarchy will always = better more expensive. more that not that hard to find passages that favor particular hardware over other otherwise capable hardware.

for instance how much SPL can be used to play Ray Brown's double bass here is a matter of the system's/floor/rack/arm/cartridge/turntable's ability to eliminate acoustical, and ground feedback. not only that, but mostly that. and to get it to sound real, requires some SPL's. yet if we avoid those type passages, or never play them 'live', then who's the wiser? but most turntables might cause the listener to assume it's the pressing that has distortion. but not true. as i have improved my hardware, i hear more and more on this track. and can play it louder, and it's more alive and real. and my previous assumptions get blown away.

the system's ability to play full frequency and linear can also affect when the more capable turntable might matter. less extended systems are less revealing of differences. and some don't view that ability as very musically important. and maybe it's not directly, but the implications are heard everywhere to some degree. but you can play lots of great pressings and not be conscious of this attribute.

so turntables matter.....a lot......sometimes. is the juice worth the squeeze? that's personal.

 

[PeterA]

That's not possible. So why float the idea?

I find it more relevant to say, prepare yourselves all, trigger word coming. I find it more relevant to sit a group in a "blind" test and play a $200,000 TT and a $20,000 TT. I would not be surprised if many would have a hard time distinguishing the two apart. And the differences could be very subtle. To Vandersteins point, the heroic efforts and materials required to make a expensive TT don't necessarily get you better. Sometimes they do. But that would be more a fault of the lesser product than a doing right with the more expensive.

The talk of Altec and such is just moving the sound signature to something radically different that some gravitate too. That is not about the topic at hand.

This may be relevant to Vanderstein’s point, beyond a certain point, just making it speaker cabinet more of the same as cost, but it does not improve performance. I had the big micro Seki turntable. It had a heavy base and a heavy platter a good motor thread drive. I directly compared it in my system to the very rare original American Sound AS 1000 which is a similar high mass thread belt with air supported platter design built to a more extreme level. Vladimir Lamm used this turntable. It actually had a Micro Seiki motor also. The much more massive platter and base did provide a calmer more natural presentation. The two turntables sound very similar to each other, but the latter took the concept to an extreme level. The difference was clearly audible, and it was reflected in the price.

 

[microstrip]

That's not possible.

It was just my point.

So why float the idea?

Because it is the only possibility of questioning something in absolute. Sorry, it seems you were not following the argument.

I find it more relevant to say, prepare yourselves all, trigger word coming. I find it more relevant to sit a group in a "blind" test (...)

Sorry, for me a blind test is serious matter. A "blind" test is probably a joke I am not interested to go on.

 

[microstrip]

if you can play particular passages of pressings then certain attributes jump out clearly when in direct compare. but this also involves tonearms and cartridges.

Surely ...

but i'm not saying that price hierarchy will always = better more expensive. more that not that hard to find passages that favor particular hardware over other otherwise capable hardware.

Preference will surely affect the price hierarchy, any one knows of it.

But whit-in a defined preference the price hierarchy holds. In general ,
better more expensive. Surely we can always fins an exception.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Preference will surely affect the price hierarchy, any one knows of it.

But whit-in a defined preference the price hierarchy holds. In general ,
better more expensive. Surely we can always fins an exception.

preference collectively does affect market value and desirability. which is somewhat different than cost/price. but more often than not one follows the other. so i agree.

 

[microstrip]

This may be relevant to Vanderstein’s point, beyond a certain point, just making it speaker cabinet more of the same as cost, but it does not improve performance. I had the big micro Seki turntable. It had a heavy base and a heavy platter a good motor thread drive. I directly compared it in my system to the very rare original American Sound AS 1000 which is a similar high mass thread belt with air supported platter design built to a more extreme level. Vladimir Lamm used this turntable. It actually had a Micro Seiki motor also. The much more massive platter and base did provide a calmer more natural presentation. The two turntables sound very similar to each other, but the latter took the concept to an extreme level. The difference was clearly audible, and it was reflected in the price.

Can you share with us the recommended retail price price of the items you are referring?

 

[PeterA]

Can you share with us the recommended retail price price of the items you are referring?

No retail prices because both tables are discontinued. I had paid about half for the SX 8000II of what the seller wanted for the AS 1000. There was a noticeable difference and improvement with the AS 1000, but it was a similar sound, just more natural, meaning more calm, relaxed, more like the real thing in all the ways I noticed. To Vanderstein's point, it was a similar design, just built to a bigger scale.

 

[microstrip]

No retail prices because both tables are discontinued. I had paid about half for the SX 8000II of what the seller wanted for the AS 1000. There was a noticeable difference and improvement with the AS 1000, but it was a similar sound, just more natural, meaning more calm, relaxed, more like the real thing in all the ways I noticed. To Vanderstein's point, it was a similar design, just built to a bigger scale.

Great. Some people love talking about value and quoting the prices of items owned by others, but always find a way to avoid disclosing the exact prices of "natural" gear.

 

[PeterA]

Great. Some people love talking about value and quoting the prices of items owned by others, but always find a way to avoid disclosing the exact prices of "natural" gear.

Firstly, the gear is not “natural“. The presentation or listening experience is natural, to me.

I actually don’t think I know the prices paid for items owned by others. Prices are sometimes quoted but I don’t know who pays retail prices.

You consider these discussed turntables to be “unobtainium”. What others pay for equipment that you think is impossible to acquire should not be of concern. Furthermore, these items are antiques and as you have written they are special cases and exceptions to the market.

The Wadax and new MSB DAC are current flagships with retail prices. The last retail prices for the Lamm LP1 was around $50k and the LL1.1 around $60k. I don’t know what others pay for these items.