Yes, what I should have said was that total listening area would be from ~ 1ft from the end of the 11 ft long south wall and ~ 12 ft diagonally across to the east wall. The speakers would be placed in that corner and the center to center distance between them would be somewhere between 7 and 9 ft, and I guess toed slightly out (?). And the subs placed towards the outer ends of that corner. Please advise if you think otherwise regarding placement.
Subject: Center Speaker Recommendations for Main Horn Speakers
- Thread starter ajant
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Duke LeJeune
Manufacturer - Illusio Audio and AudioKinesis
Duh - I should have been able to figure that out. Thanks!
Thank you VERY MUCH for posting these. Based on one of your subsequent posts, I think you need a horizontal coverage pattern of about 90 degrees.
JBL 442730-001 PTH1010HF-1 Waveguide - The Speaker Exchange
Brand New Genuine JBL 442730-001 PTH1010HF-1 Waveguide 12 x 12 x 3 heightreconingspeakers.com
I can't tell whether this is a constant-directivity horn, but I don't think it allows a low enough crossover for your Altecs. I think it's designed for crossover frequency no lower than 1.6 kHz. Altec crossed over the 416-8B woofer at 1.2 kHz in the magnificent Model 19, but unless Troy Crowe tells you that your Altecs would work well with a 1.6 kHz crossover, I don't think this horn is the answer.
JBL M2 Horn Lens 5025594 - The Speaker Exchange
Brand New Genuine JBL M2 Horn Lens #5025594. It is normal for there so be some slight mold imperfections on the mounting flange.
I'm afraid that the M2 horn's response won't be very good when you are both off-axis AND standing up, because I strongly suspect its response along the diagonals falls short of its response in the horizontal and vertical planes where its measurements were taken.
Looks to me like a fairly narrow pattern horn, not sure whether it's constant directivity, but that 2" throat will start beaming an octave lower than a 1" throat would.
ME90 - Horns - B&C Speakers
www.bcspeakers.com
This looks to me like it would work. It's a good horn. In my measurements its pattern control looks good from about 900 Hz to 10 kHz, and then some beaming sets in north of 10 kHz.
This is a diffraction horn. I wouldn't use a diffraction horn for a high-end home audio application.
Looks to me like it's constant directivity. I can't tell what the horizontal pattern width is, but I'm guessing considerably narrower than 90 degrees.
Peavey CH-941 Hi-Frequency Speaker Component Horn 90 X 40 Degree V 493940 New - Walmart.com
Buy Peavey CH-941 Hi-Frequency Speaker Component Horn 90 X 40 Degree V 493940 New at Walmart.comwww.walmart.com
This is another diffraction horn.
Probably true. Constant directivity horns do not result in a speaker with super-high efficiency, and super-high efficiency is often a primary selling point of horn speakers. In order to have super-high efficiency on-axis, the high frequency energy has to be concentrated into a narrow angle, and constant-directivity horns don't do that. Also, constant-directivity horns are more complicated to cross over, but terribly so. I've been designing passive crossovers for constant-directivity horns for about twenty years, so imo it can be done.
DSP is not required for a constant-directivity horn, assuming you have someone who can do the passive crossover design for you.
Beryllium compression drivers are hard to come by nowadays, probably because of Beryllium supply-chain issues. Far as I can tell Radian has ceased producing them, and what I have been told about the availability of 18Sound's Beryllium compression drivers is not encouraging.
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Duke LeJeune
Manufacturer - Illusio Audio and AudioKinesis
Thank you very much for this information. It sounds to me like you want a very wide listening area, wider even than the distance between your speakers. Ime this can be done with constant-directivity waveguides that have good coverage across a 90-degree horizontal angle, assuming they are set up in a time/intensity trading configuration, toed-in approximately 45 degrees. The discontinued speakers in this photo fit that description, as the front baffles are angled inwards at 45 degrees:
The speaker axes criss-cross in front of the front-and-center seat. From the location where the photo was taken (a bit to the right of the right speaker), with eyes closed the dialogue comes from on-screen. The owner sold his center channel speaker because he no longer needed it.
Imo in order to get good pattern coverage across a 90 degree angle from a constant-directivity waveguide, a 1" throat compression driver works better than a 1.4" throat compression driver because the latter's pattern will narrow too much in the top octave. Imo a 1.4" throat compression driver will give good top-octave coverage with a waveguide whose pattern width is in the ballpark of 60 degrees. (The waveguide in the JBL M2 gets its 120-degrees-wide coverage measurement [despite its 1.5" throat compression driver] because of the "knuckles" in the waveguides throat, which imo are "gentle diffraction" features, if I understand them correctly.)
Here are two 1" throat constant-directivity waveguides whose patterns are 90 degrees horizontal (and about 50 degrees vertical), and they are big enough to allow a 1.2 kHz crossover, so they should work well with your Altecs:
1. The Pi Speakers H290C; the third link is to unsmoothed off-axis curves and imo what is shown constitutes excellent performance:
Pi Parts and Options, Tweeter Horn/Waveguide (H290C)
Pi Parts and Options Tweeter Horn/Waveguide (H290C)
www.pispeakers.com
These horns often have some irregular color splotches in the plastic they are molded from, so you may want to spray-paint them. They are very solid; my understanding is that the plastic used is stronger than most but the trade-off was the irregular color splotching.
2. The DIY Sound Group SEOS (Super-Elliptical Oblate Spheroid) 15:
Denovo Audio SEOS-15™ for dome tweeters
Denovo Audio, SEOS-15™ waveguide, dome tweeter waveguide, horn, SEOS Project, SEOS waveguide
Don't believe the blurb that came up; it's made for compression drivers, not dome tweeters. I used the Radian 745 Beryllium, among others.
Here's the SEOS-15 in action, I also used it in a big stand-mount. That's only a 12" woofer; your Altecs are about the same width as the waveguide:
As far as I can tell the SEOS 15 is no longer available. I have a pair or two in storage just in case somebody wanted me to make them a pair of those speakers.
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Thanks for the votes of confidence. I haven't yet checked with Robh3606 about it but maybe it might be apparent to you what he does with DSP for his passive crossovers.
www.diyaudio.com
Again, I need to ask Rob about it, but perhaps he uses some kind of DSP software like https://rephase.org/ which gives him much more precise control over those passive crossovers.
If this is true, then I suppose it's the third next best thing to DSP active crossovers. And it's something that I could exploit since all my music sources are via my pc. But how much would it be worth using remains to be seen.
Meanwhile, I do see one possibly problem with my speaker/sub placement plan for creating conditions to realize accurate imaging and those ~ 10 ms + time intervals to ensure audibility of whatever reverb is extant in the recording: I did some remeasuring of my subs and the mock ~ 2ft wide midwoofer cabinets in the corner. Turns out with the speakers again placed further into the corner than the subs-but with the sub and speaker cabinets only ~ 2" apart-the center to center distance of the speakers is over 11 ft. You would have to instruct me on how to determine the correct distance between the speakers to thereby find the optimal listening distance to achieve what you've convinced me is the proper direct/indirect sound ratio.
But with the speakers ~ 2" away from the subs on their one side and with only ~ 6.5 ft from their other sides to the south and east corners, while that might be adequate space for beneficial late reflections, two 17" x 15" power amps need to go deep into that corner and a Don Sachs DS2 preamp about 1 ft in front of them. Then in front or along side of the preamp is the Merging Hapi DAC and a few feet further from the center of the corner, towards my chair a small desktop PC on the floor feeding the DAC via USB. And atop the pc a 17" monitor. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being good, how will this acoustical environment impact imaging, sound stage and the creating the "you are there" illusion?
Is it possible to cover the whole spectrum, high SPL, low distortion with a 2-way?
Another one:
Again, I need to ask Rob about it, but perhaps he uses some kind of DSP software like https://rephase.org/ which gives him much more precise control over those passive crossovers.
If this is true, then I suppose it's the third next best thing to DSP active crossovers. And it's something that I could exploit since all my music sources are via my pc. But how much would it be worth using remains to be seen.
Meanwhile, I do see one possibly problem with my speaker/sub placement plan for creating conditions to realize accurate imaging and those ~ 10 ms + time intervals to ensure audibility of whatever reverb is extant in the recording: I did some remeasuring of my subs and the mock ~ 2ft wide midwoofer cabinets in the corner. Turns out with the speakers again placed further into the corner than the subs-but with the sub and speaker cabinets only ~ 2" apart-the center to center distance of the speakers is over 11 ft. You would have to instruct me on how to determine the correct distance between the speakers to thereby find the optimal listening distance to achieve what you've convinced me is the proper direct/indirect sound ratio.
But with the speakers ~ 2" away from the subs on their one side and with only ~ 6.5 ft from their other sides to the south and east corners, while that might be adequate space for beneficial late reflections, two 17" x 15" power amps need to go deep into that corner and a Don Sachs DS2 preamp about 1 ft in front of them. Then in front or along side of the preamp is the Merging Hapi DAC and a few feet further from the center of the corner, towards my chair a small desktop PC on the floor feeding the DAC via USB. And atop the pc a 17" monitor. On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being good, how will this acoustical environment impact imaging, sound stage and the creating the "you are there" illusion?
Duke LeJeune
Manufacturer - Illusio Audio and AudioKinesis
Looks to me like he's only using DSP to boost the low bass. He says his crossover is "full passive".
I'm sorry but I can't envision all of this. Could you do a sketch?
I'll come back to this when I have a clear picture of where the speakers will be.
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Actually, as of now, yes and no. First, I've long had a pair of these NOS. https://www.usspeaker.com/radian 745neoBepb-1.htm Thing is, compression driver expert https://www.diyaudio.com/community/members/arez.503242/ and Art have no actual experience with them, while those like Nicholas Badey shun them for having "outdated phase plugs". OTOH, Pierre apparently loves them, at least once it managed to dial in the eq to flatten and extend their response. See 15266. https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/beyond-the-ariel.100392/page-764 So, they may or may not be ideal for this project, though they have a 1.4" exit.
Assuming they are not the ideal choice, or if a 1.5" exit is needed, there is this.
Original JBL 2435HPL Driver 125-30001-00X - The Speaker Exchange
Special Order – Lead time is about 1 week
reconingspeakers.com
And if a 2" exit is needed I've seen ample used JBL 2450H drivers available in apparently good condition for ~ $500/pair. Arez referred me to this company who will restore them for about the same money http://www.prosoundservice.com/ and will also swap out their aluminum for beryllium diaphragms. Fred at usspeaker.com said they have several pair of JBL Be diaphragms in stock, though the wait for 18Sound drivers is four to six months.
Haven’t read the thread properly, so excuse me if I am recommending something of no interest, or you want to go the DIY route.
Krix are an Australian brand with some very solid engineering behind them. Around 75% of Australian high end commercial cinemas use their speakers.Also many installations around the world. They also have a home cinema range, you can look at free standing or modular for LCR.
I have Megaphonix in a multi channel system and are amazed with the price performance ratio. Very clean sounding, efficient, dynamic with high output capabilities and zero detectable horn colourations.
www.krix.com.au
Krix are an Australian brand with some very solid engineering behind them. Around 75% of Australian high end commercial cinemas use their speakers.Also many installations around the world. They also have a home cinema range, you can look at free standing or modular for LCR.
I have Megaphonix in a multi channel system and are amazed with the price performance ratio. Very clean sounding, efficient, dynamic with high output capabilities and zero detectable horn colourations.
Dedicated Home Cinema
Create unparalleled cinematic experiences with Krix dedicated home cinemas. Immerse yourself in premium sound quality and craftsmanship. Elevate your movie nights with Krix today!
www.krix.com.au
The speakers would be placed in that corner and the center to center distance between them would be somewhere between 7 and 9 ft, and I guess toed slightly out (?). And the subs placed towards the outer ends of that corner. Please advise if you think otherwise regarding placement.
In any case, if a 1" driver is the way to go there's this beryllium.
https://www.usspeaker.com/radian 475bEpb-1.htm
But if so, why not cross the Altecs at 800Hz instead of 1.2kHz? Or is there a penalty if doing so? If not, remember that I am concerned with minimizing 3rd harmonic and IM distortion, and they both increase above 500Hz with the Altecs; see Troy's measurements. https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealed
Is 7 to 9 ft center to center main speaker distance vs the corresponding listening distance considered a very wide listening area? Or are you also including the pair of subs placed further out from the corner? Therefore, would you still advise me to use a 1" driver and which horn (s)?
In any case, if a 1" driver is the way to go there's this beryllium.
https://www.usspeaker.com/radian 475bEpb-1.htm
But if so, why not cross the Altecs at 800Hz instead of 1.2kHz? Or is there a penalty if doing so? If not, remember that I am concerned with minimizing 3rd harmonic and IM distortion, and they both increase above 500Hz with the Altecs; see Troy's measurements. https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/altec-416-8b-in-100l-sealed
Sorry, I have neither printer or scanner at home. You can't sketch it from my description?
Thanks Rob, but I had cloned a pair of expensive midwoofers designed by g3dahl at diyaudio.com, and which I really need to use for my main speakers once I find the right waveguide for my listening space. I have known of Krix speakers for many years when they were distributed by https://www.fullcompass.com/?srsltid=AfmBOopX0IUf98MeHcti8BLka5HIVsuTUg1KVyKXez6OSKsB13gnsjJ7 , though being in NY never had a chance to hear them. Soon after my DIY speaker journey began. But I may eventually be looking to buy a 3.1 system for the TV; so maybe one day...........
Duke LeJeune
Manufacturer - Illusio Audio and AudioKinesis
Not with confidence (but I tried anyway, see the attached .pdf file).
Assuming your architect's drawing is to scale, and the distance from the south wall to the center of the trigonal north wall is 23 feet, then it looks to me like the south wall (from the south-east corner westward to what I presume to be a kitchen cabinet) is a little over 14 feet, instead of 11 feet.
OR, again assuming your architect's drawing is to scale, if the south wall (from the south-east corner westward to what I presume to be a kitchen cabinet) is 11 feet, then it looks to me like the distance from the south wall to the center of the trigonal north wall is a little under 18 feet, instead of 23 feet.
So these items go in front of the door that's in the south-east corner?
I got the impression that the listening area should be 8-10 feet WIDE (slightly wider than the center-to-center speaker spacing) from this:
Imo a listening area slightly wider than the center-to-center speaker spacing is an unusually wide listening area. Ime it can be done, but it calls for a horizontal radiation pattern about 90 degrees wide.
If you see where I have misunderstood you, please make corrections.
I don't know what that "180 arc" is referring to, and here it sounds like the sweet spot width you are seeking is only 5 feet wide, which imo would open up the possibility of using waveguides with horizontal patterns somewhat narrower than 90 degrees.
Again, please correct where I am misunderstanding you.
"Toed slightly out"? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you again... a time/intensity trading configuration calls for aggressive toe-in.
How much freedom do you have as far as speaker placement in that room?
I'm not ignoring your other questions; I just want to get my confusion here cleared up first, because if I've misunderstood something important then I will need to re-think my suggestions.
* * * *
I have attached my best guess of the speaker locations assuming the 23-foot room dimension is correct, and have drawn them with the aggressive 45-degree-ballpark toe-in angle I have in mine. Let me know what I'm getting wrong.
Thanks!
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Duke LeJeune
Manufacturer - Illusio Audio and AudioKinesis
CAUTION! Just so I don't forget, there's an extensive discussion about the Radian 475Be driver here.
https://www.avsforum.com/posts/52364689/ And note that this guy said that it measures significant distortion crossed at 800Hz. Crossing would apparently reduce its distortion but raise that of the Altec midwoofer's. I'll go with a 1" driver if I must unless reevaluating the listening conditions point to using a larger driver.
Btw, what's said in that thread about Radian not replying to questions is really bad.
https://www.avsforum.com/posts/52364689/ And note that this guy said that it measures significant distortion crossed at 800Hz. Crossing would apparently reduce its distortion but raise that of the Altec midwoofer's. I'll go with a 1" driver if I must unless reevaluating the listening conditions point to using a larger driver.
Btw, what's said in that thread about Radian not replying to questions is really bad.
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I was doing a google image search for [ “SEOS-15” sonogram ]
Did find this https://www.diyaudio.com/community/attachments/seos-15_4550-png.215196/
But why does the vertical sonogram look relatively poor and yet the off-axis response of both so x & y plots look so similar?
Then I found this Pyle horn. Thread search [ Pyle ] found all these positive comments on that horn.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/search/2371826/?q=pyle&t=post&c[thread]=178187&o=date
after I found this
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/great-waveguide-list.178187/post-2563519
but see Earl’s comments.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/great-waveguide-list.178187/post-2563563
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...AAAAAAbs/4BVdS9UtChs/s640/jbl+and+de250-n.png
and then this
https://ampslab-spk.com/2016/11/18/pyle-ph612-horn-selenium-d220ti/
Might that horn sound much better with
https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-2408h-1-high-frequency-driver/
or
https://www.usspeaker.com/radian 475bEpb-1.htm
Here’s the Seos-15
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/attachments/seos-15_4550-png.215196/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/waveguides-and-horns.166312/page-21
Did find this https://www.diyaudio.com/community/attachments/seos-15_4550-png.215196/
But why does the vertical sonogram look relatively poor and yet the off-axis response of both so x & y plots look so similar?
Then I found this Pyle horn. Thread search [ Pyle ] found all these positive comments on that horn.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/search/2371826/?q=pyle&t=post&c[thread]=178187&o=date
after I found this
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/great-waveguide-list.178187/post-2563519
but see Earl’s comments.
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/great-waveguide-list.178187/post-2563563
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...AAAAAAbs/4BVdS9UtChs/s640/jbl+and+de250-n.png
and then this
https://ampslab-spk.com/2016/11/18/pyle-ph612-horn-selenium-d220ti/
Might that horn sound much better with
https://reconingspeakers.com/product/jbl-2408h-1-high-frequency-driver/
or
https://www.usspeaker.com/radian 475bEpb-1.htm
Here’s the Seos-15
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/attachments/seos-15_4550-png.215196/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/waveguides-and-horns.166312/page-21
Yes, from your sketch the large boxes, the Altecs, are placed accordingly. Distance from south center of north wall 23 ft. Distance from east wall along south wall westward to end is 11 ft. Then a 39" wide hallway past a 4.5" wide wall to end left end of kitchen cabinet above fridge.
Unfortunately, no. I was lucky enough to get the three bedroom closet doors that I had to remove to fit in there, so that door always remains closed. Instead, the front of one amp will face that door and the front of the other amp amp will face the east wall.
Again, the way I placed those mock Altec cabinets, the center to center distance is just under 9.5 ft. But no way am I saying that the midwoofers need to stay at that distance. I would leave it to you to decide that. The same goes for the listening distance. Again, FWIW, and as you probably deduced, the diagonal distance from the end of the south wall to just past the left side of the left sub is ~ 12 ft.
Well, if for example, the center to center speaker spacing is 7 ft wide then I would have to remain within 3.5 ft of the corner's center. No problem.
Toed in, yes. But what do mean by that term time/intensity trading configuration? And apply so much toe-in?
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