How do you know when you are done?

Firstly, streaming is not easy, what percentage of streamer/DACs sound great out the box.
Secondly, even when you find a good streamer/DAC you don't get to listen to millions of great recordings, 90% are horrid. Of course some folks have a higher horrid recording tolerance than others.
As someone that streams all the time and demonstrates with Qobuz most of the time I could not disagree more that 90 percent of it is horrid. I don't know what you like to listen to but my findings are probably exactly opposite of what you state.
I have playlists of hundreds and hundreds of really great sounding material, much of which I was unaware of a few years or months ago.

Digital does require some work and understanding of how to make it sound its best and all of it is certainly not created equal. Products like Wadax, EMM Labs, MSB, Taiko, Pink Faun, dCS etc. don't sound horrible but much of what they do can be made to sound even better with some effort and knowledge
 
The question of building a mature system in both digital and analog stands apart from preferences in listening to music. Why would I pay any attention to MikeL's preferences of listening, which make him an enthusiastic proponent of streaming, when mine differ as I explained in my previous post?
ok Al, good question. i was not responding to your post, but to Tim's. but why would you, considering your use case, care about streaming? what might it offer you?
The question if you need or want streaming or not is to a large extent independent from the analog vs digital debate. As you know digital is my only source, which does not automatically mean that I am or should be interested in streaming.
do you need or want streaming?
The "any music you want to hear" argument doesn't work for me either.
ok.
No one is entitled to tell people how they should listen to music,
i don't mean to tell anyone what to do, just trying to inform. i see streaming as low hanging fruit where the entry fee is minimal and the payoff huge. i do think serious audiophiles should be informed about it, so they don't miss what it might do for them. it's just too big to ignore, whether it's for them or not.
or that somehow access to all music available makes one a greater music lover
never said that.
while foregoing streaming somehow "limits" yourself in your music listening.
well, not streaming does limit you. whether that is a concern is another question. one you refute. fair enough.
It's all a matter of preference. I have so much music at home already, with a number of CD albums even still unopened in their plastic wrap, and I can listen to that forever.
i can relate. i have more Lp's on my shelves than i can ever fully consume. and if i had hundreds/thousands of CD's un opened i can see your point. hard to imagine needing more music.

not saying you should give up your CD's. but you can listen to the streaming file over and over. or buy the file and own it forever too.
And with my mode of listening, streaming would be a more of a distraction to my love of music than it would be useful. I like to get to know the structure and textures of a piece of music intimately, and therefore I like to listen to a piece repeatedly, if not many times over, not just once.
nothing about streaming would prevent that same approach. maybe sections of cuts are harder to repeat over and over with streaming. i know it is easy to do but never really did it much. the i-pad interface is quite flexible and of course playlists are trivial with streaming.

but streaming does open up other possibilities. most CD's have higher rez native resolutions. so higher quality playback for many of your CD's is accessible. the benefits of that is debatable, but most would agree that it's real. so it can very likely enhance your listening even if you keep to the music of your CD's. and finding companion recordings/performances becomes a natural thing. much easier than finding the CD somewhere and cheaper too.
To me personally this exploration in depth opens up much more riches of music than a more shallow exploration of music in breadth.*)
there is no aspect or exploration in depth that streaming does not match with CD.
If someone else's mode of listening is different, and streaming works for them, that is great and all the power to them. Yet telling those who do not need and want streaming that they forego riches of music is preposterous and reeks of an unwarranted superiority complex.
not intended.
And yes, I do sometimes explore music via streaming on laptop and headphones. Yet streaming is just not my main mode of listening.
it's related but not the same as on our systems.
*) Listening to a number of different interpretations of a single piece, greatly enabled by streaming, to a large extent is a different story altogether. When I make such comparisons, my attention is mostly focused on presentation and phrasing, not the structure of a piece. Certainly, in some cases different interpretations can shed new light on elements of structure and texture, but in order to explore structure and texture in depth I prefer to rely on a single performance, or start with it and stick with it for some time. Only then I may spread out.
nothing about streaming would restrict this approach.

i sincerely apologize if my streaming posts are offensive to you and crossed the line.
 
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Certainly, everyone likes something different, there is no objective right or wrong. I enjoy vinyl, both the sound and experience, but most of my listening is streaming. I find the convenience and nearly infinite variety hard to resist. The sound quality is quite good and the ability to organize large music collections is very useful. Most of all, Qobuz and Tidal have allowed me to discover a wide range of incredible artists that I would never have heard if I limited myself to physical media. So, its all a matter of personal preference, but streaming offers amazing benefits for the investment required.
 
i sincerely apologize if my streaming posts are offensive to you and crossed the line.

No harm done, Mike. We are all passionate, and that is a good thing.

There are several other posters as well who express their enthusiasm for streaming in similar terms. My comments were written not just with your posts in mind.
 
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(...) Yet streaming is just not my main mode of listening.

Al,

Or "streaming is just not my main mode of listening yet "?

IMO once we accept listening to digital it is a question of money and/or time before we go in streaming, unless something personnel pushes us strongly away from it. The same bits or more bits, delivered to us in a different way. It is a question of time before the audio industry cooks them in way you will appreciate them. :)

For me, it was two phase process - first I went into files stored in a server, only later I moved to streaming.
 
Al,

Or "streaming is just not my main mode of listening yet "?

IMO once we accept listening to digital it is a question of money and/or time before we go in streaming, unless something personnel pushes us strongly away from it. The same bits or more bits, delivered to us in a different way. It is a question of time before the audio industry cooks them in way you will appreciate them. :)

For me, it was two phase process - first I went into files stored in a server, only later I moved to streaming.

Understood. In the past I have been scarred by bad experiences with computer audio and streaming in other systems, and by the struggles of their owners to make the technology work to a satisfying level. CD playback was just more mature for a long time. I am immensely glad that I was not an early adopter!

In the meantime streaming has gotten much better, but my interest is still not at a level where I find it essential. Instead I spent my money and effort into bringing my CD playback to a level that I am very happy with and, also looking back, I think for me personally that was absolutely the right choice which I am fully satisfied with. Others will make different choices, and that is fine too.

I did buy a little WiiM streamer for little money, but I am just too lazy to set it up and don't yet want to spend the money on a monthly Qobuz subscription. I simply don't have the itch and there is nothing that streaming enthusiasts can say that will change this for the time being. I have heard enough streaming to know the benefits, I just don't have any interest at this time.
 
(...) I did buy a little WiiM streamer for little money, but I am just too lazy to set it up and don't yet want to spend the money on a monthly Qobuz subscription. I simply don't have the itch and there is nothing that streaming enthusiasts can say that will change this for the time being. I have heard enough streaming to know the benefits, I just don't have any interest at this time.

In fact I got two WiiM AmpPro streamers lately ... :) One for a family person who wanted just to have music at a low price and one for me, not for streaming but just to have a small portable amplifier that I can use for speaker measurements. Both times the set up was a childish two minute affair, even for me that hate mobile phone apps.
Qobuz has a free experience period, no expense trying it.

BTW, if you get a streamer with a SPDIF output you can use your reclocker
with it. The friend who got my old Kondo KSL DAC has great sound using it in such way.
 
It’s interesting to me why 100% vinyl guys take such an interest in streaming without actually having personal experience of well implemented systems which use streaming.

Personally I have no interest in streaming and no desire to try it. I know several 100% vinyl guys and none of them have interest in adding an alternative technology. Others may but I see no motivation to pursue streaming. Having designed and built large scale computer systems and platforms for half my working life I know how fragile they can be and how frequently the technology changes. Computers and software are in a constant cycle of upgrades, fixes and changing interfaces. Systems have no problems until they do. I have no desire to turn my audio system into yet another computer system. I'm happy with what I have.

Stream on as you choose, I have no problem with other's choices. My non-choice does not invalidate yours. My objection was to Mike L's proselytizing post that arrogated other's reasons for their choices into excuses while stating that the reasons people have for those choices are irrational or lame and that people who do not want to do what he wants to do are lazy.
 
I’m one of those 100% vinyl guys but I still stream. How’s that for a non-sequitur? In fact everywhere I play music except in my main system. But I must admit that when I want to really listen, I only care about vinyl. A friend who has exited vinyl and cds for Qobuz is as happy as a clam, but he’s done so for cost and convenience. He absolutely loves exploring new music. I do too, but I do so in the car, the kitchen, on a bike ride, etc.

But to tie this back to the original question, if you are a serious digital audiophile I think it is more difficult to be “done” than if you stick to records. Of course, I’ll never be done with buying and selling records. But as for being done with gear, if I move houses I reserve the right to go from done to undone.
 
mostly i made it about ease of streaming, and finished with cost. it's both easy and cheap.

every rational besides performance does not hold water. can't argue with performance, which is personal preference and how hard you want to try. OTOH no one visiting my room can make that case.

streaming non participants have the lamest reasons ever for not being assimilated into the streaming entity. the musical equation in favor of it is overwhelming.

listen to pretty much any piece of music you want to, right the hell now.

when i ask people face to face about why they don't stream, the overwhelming true answer once we talk about it is that they just have not bothered to do it. it's just that simple. nothing else makes any sense. the physics is just that bodies at rest want to stay there. it takes will power to do things.

added note; i respect that some have decided to only do one format with their system. just a personal decision. i cannot argue with that. if so, just say that, and don't try to use other excuses not to stream that don't make sense, if that is the reason.
I have streamed Tidal for a couple of months 2 times over the years. I end up not using it much. With limited time for stereo enjoyment i just don't want to waste my time doing it. I have many, many records i have not heard yet, and all my favorite music on vinyl. :)
 
But to tie this back to the original question, if you are a serious digital audiophile I think it is more difficult to be “done” than if you stick to records.

This is the simple point I was trying to make. Unfortunately, as per usual on here, context means nothing.
 
As someone that streams all the time and demonstrates with Qobuz most of the time I could not disagree more that 90 percent of it is horrid. I don't know what you like to listen to but my findings are probably exactly opposite of what you state.
I have playlists of hundreds and hundreds of really great sounding material, much of which I was unaware of a few years or months ago.

Digital does require some work and understanding of how to make it sound its best and all of it is certainly not created equal. Products like Wadax, EMM Labs, MSB, Taiko, Pink Faun, dCS etc. don't sound horrible but much of what they do can be made to sound even better with some effort and knowledge
Do you own a turntable Elliot ? Do you have one set up in your demonstration room ?
 
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Do you own a turntable Elliot ? Do you have one set up in your demonstration room ?
Not in my new place but they have in our Davie location a few .
Why?
 
Personally I have no interest in streaming and no desire to try it. I know several 100% vinyl guys and none of them have interest in adding an alternative technology.
Others may but I see no motivation to pursue streaming.

Ok, some people say exactly the same for electric cars.

Having designed and built large scale computer systems and platforms for half my working life I know how fragile they can be and how frequently the technology changes. Computers and software are in a constant cycle of upgrades, fixes and changing interfaces. Systems have no problems until they do.

IMO it depends on our ability to make the proper choices and surely, some luck. I am typing this message in a 15 years old desktop. Other than obsolescence, the only problem I had with computers was an hard disk crash - fortunately I had backup. But computers for me are just a tool, not a life. Taiko Audio people managed my system from the Netherlands, dCS carried an upgrade locally. Much more trouble free than sending tubes for matching to the factory for replacement. ;)

I have no desire to turn my audio system into yet another computer system.

Some eloquent people could tell they do not want to keep their lives in a complex electro-mechanical system ...

I'm happy with what I have.

This is the more relevant aspect for me. I can understand such feeling.
 
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Not in my new place but they have in our Davie location a few .
Why?
Just curious, you seem to prefer digital demos, not having a turntable would be a good reason. ;)
 
@tima i think it would be one thing if u just had your preference. peace. but you are a self acclaimed professional reviewer of audio (per your signature) that has never streamed (“with no desire to try it”) nor knows what the current (or even relatively recent) digital side is able to produce in sound quality in comparison to analog? yikes. but hey a dedicated, quite older age demographic, boutique audience niche remains. respect.

i am sure u will have your beautiful wit rebuttal per usual but please don’t imply, in the future, analog sounds superior or is more reliable to digital, or that digital is so much more complicated, subject to updates, etc without even having tried. imho digital via roon has been seamless. and running digital from multiple companies including of course taiko hardware like the extreme or olympus has never given me a single problem or glitch.

sounds like computer systems you developed often had issues hm. sound a bit dinky and says a lot on its own. and has zero relevance to the top digital manufacturers in audio here pouring their sweat and brains into their uber technologies. comparing what they do to traditional computer platforms is a disservice.

i can tell you that the taiko extreme i had here had not a single issue (not “fragile” nor “technology changes”) in 5 years only to be replaced by their latest offering again with zero issues and seamless integration
 
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Ok, not to sound like a smartass, but because this is intended to be both a practical comment and a humorous one...How do you know when you are done? Well when you run out of money OR the wife starts complaining about it. IF you are married, these are two barriers that no mere mortal can cross. Maintaining peace at home with SWMBO is required, unless you are jonesing to be single again. The cost of this hobby has ballooned to a place where budgetary limits are definitely a thing. I sure cannot absorb the cost of a 60-80k system today...and it is frightfully easy to get into that territory. Of course I guess you could cross the financial barrier like the Federal Government has by spending way more than they can realistically afford. Probably a choice only made by governments and fools. I'll leave it at that.
 
@tima i think it would be one thing if u just had your preference. peace. but you are a self acclaimed professional reviewer of audio (per your signature) that has never streamed (“with no desire to try it”) nor knows what the current (or even relatively recent) digital side is able to produce in sound quality in comparison to analog? yikes. but hey a dedicated, quite older age demographic, boutique audience niche remains. respect. i am sure u will have your beautiful wit rebuttal per usual but please don’t imply, in the future, analog sounds superior to digital, or that digital is so much more complicated, subject to updates, etc without even having tried. imho digital via roon has been seamless. and running digital from multiple companies including of course taiko hardware like the extreme or olympus has never given me a single problem or glitch

Hi -- a little background may help allay your concerns ...

Many of my earlier reviews included CDs played on my Ayre C-5xeMP. as a source. (I still have that player and at least 800 CDs.) In 2009 I published a review of the Audio Research CD5 on SoundStage. (I encourage you to read it and tell me if you think it's fair.) Recently I used that Ayre player to take the Atma-Sphere Class D amps through their 500 hour break-in period for a review. Saying I've never experienced digital as an end-user contradicts history.

To the best of my knowledge in over 20 years of reviews I have not said anything like "analog sounds superior to digital, or that digital is so much more complicated". If you find a review where I said such, please let me know. I anticipate the future will continue to resemble the past. And fwiw, I am published, not self-acclaimed.
 

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