How do you know when you are done?

[Mike Lavigne]

I didn’t make it about cost.

mostly i made it about ease of streaming, and finished with cost. it's both easy and cheap.

every rational besides performance does not hold water. can't argue with performance, which is personal preference and how hard you want to try. OTOH no one visiting my room can make that case.

streaming non participants have the lamest reasons ever for not being assimilated into the streaming entity. the musical equation in favor of it is overwhelming.

listen to pretty much any piece of music you want to, right the hell now.

when i ask people face to face about why they don't stream, the overwhelming true answer once we talk about it is that they just have not bothered to do it. it's just that simple. nothing else makes any sense. the physics is just that bodies at rest want to stay there. it takes will power to do things.

added note; i respect that some have decided to only do one format with their system. just a personal decision. i cannot argue with that. if so, just say that, and don't try to use other excuses not to stream that don't make sense, if that is the reason.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...I do think there can be a little fear regarding what technology they might need to adopt in order to stream. The learning curve has continued to flatten, but some folks are very apprehensive about "new" stuff.

I had a person ready to spend thousands of dollars to have someone hand-type a .pdf doc.

Swore it was not possible to convert it to MSWord. Even her CEO son said it couldn't be done.

Took about 10 minutes to convert the doc. Not the same idea, I understand, but perhaps illustrative of folks' experience and relationship to tech, what they know, what someone told them, etc.

 

[microstrip]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet - if you are using digital streaming you are probably never going to be done. Between different audio players, firmware updates, new DAC chips, better switches, LAN isolators/filters, USB isolators/filters, Qobuz/Roon/Tidal changes, Linear Power supplies, etc. you'll need some real fortitude to get out of that rabbit hole.

It depends on our wishes. I do not feel any pleasure fiddling with network and LAN, although 95% of my listening is streaming. Surely if you read WBF threads of people who enjoy it you get this idea . Each of us has his preferred activity in the hobby - some obsessively clean LPs , others play with tonearm/cartridge set-up regularly, I love spending time setting up Studers A80. As they say in this hobby each of us picks its poison.

Not to say vinyl/tape/CD playback is set it and forget it, but there are just fewer moving variables in those domains.

Probably for CD, not for vinyl.

 

[PYP]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet - if you are using digital streaming you are probably never going to be done. Between different audio players, firmware updates, new DAC chips, better switches, LAN isolators/filters, USB isolators/filters, Qobuz/Roon/Tidal changes, Linear Power supplies, etc. you'll need some real fortitude to get out of that rabbit hole.

Yes, even if you decide to hold the other things steady, firmware updates will push the technology (and sound) forward. And are typically free. Programmable DACs have opened a new venue to improvement without trading in equipment.

And manufacturers that offer a generous upgrade/trade-in policy are encouraging taking the next step. It is the consumer's choice.

 

[adamaley]

I'm fully digital/streaming myself so I'm not castigating the medium.

A lot of the technology, in my opinion, still hasn't even been settled on. The industry still hasn't determined a best performing industry connection standard - there's i2S, USB, XDMI, etc. There is no single packaged network delivery solution that cannot me improved upon by adding another of it's kind or other accessories.

Like @PeterA said, it's more of a "moving target" that makes the finish line even more hazy in order to determine "you're done". Let's not turn this into a digital vs other format comparison. I'm simply stating that it's more nebulous in these here parts.

 

[PYP]

I'm fully digital/streaming myself so I'm not castigating the medium.

A lot of the technology, in my opinion, still hasn't even been settled on. The industry still hasn't determined a best performing industry connection standard - there's i2S, USB, XDMI, etc. There is no single packaged network delivery solution that cannot me improved upon by adding another of it's kind or other accessories.

Like @PeterA said, it's more of a "moving target" that makes the finish line even more hazy in order to determine "you're done". Let's not turn this into a digital vs other format comparison. I'm simply stating that it's more nebulous in these here parts.

I'm fully digital/streaming too. And often wonder who would be crazy enough to connect anything audio related to a network. It is just asking for trouble. OTOH, having access to over 100 million tracks is worth some pain.

 

[microstrip]

I'm fully digital/streaming myself so I'm not castigating the medium.

A lot of the technology, in my opinion, still hasn't even been settled on. The industry still hasn't determined a best performing industry connection standard - there's i2S, USB, XDMI, etc. There is no single packaged network delivery solution that cannot me improved upon by adding another of it's kind or other accessories.

Connection standards will sound different - the industry will use them to create sound signatures and marketing literature. Streaming is essentially asynchronous, relying on buffers to create a continuous signal.

In this hobby there is no absolute reference sound - we can always find a way to change sound. But we rely on user preference to know if it is an improvement or a deterioration.

Like @PeterA said, it's more of a "moving target" that makes the finish line even more hazy in order to determine "you're done". Let's not turn this into a digital vs other format comparison. I'm simply stating that it's more nebulous in these here parts.

In fact top streaming sound quality is rather recent. Only after I got the Taiko Extreme for the dCS Vivaldi I considered that streaming got quality on par with the SACD transport in the Vivaldi stack .

 

[ravenacustic]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet - if you are using digital streaming you are probably never going to be done. Between different audio players, firmware updates, new DAC chips, better switches, LAN isolators/filters, USB isolators/filters, Qobuz/Roon/Tidal changes, Linear Power supplies, etc. you'll need some real fortitude to get out of that rabbit hole.

Not to say vinyl/tape/CD playback is set it and forget it, but there are just fewer moving variables in those domains.

Agreed on this. Digital still has a lot of forward strides to go.

 

[tima]

streaming non participants have the lamest reasons ever for not being assimilated into the streaming entity. the musical equation in favor of it is overwhelming.

No offense but that's pretty lame in itself, if not arrogant.

The "streaming entity" (a StarTrek creature?) thus far is continually changing. I can understand why the non-assimilated are dis-inclined to participate. The music I like to hear is not continually changing, but streaming technology is. For some, the less time spent on technology, particularly moving target technology is more time for listening.

Do streaming technology implementations keep up with changing streaming service codecs? How often do Web browsers require updating? It's hardware and software technology. Have you had any software updates on your various Wadax devices? Is it possible that a streaming service may no longer support the operating system of your streamer? Have you ever had an internet outage? Some people have no interest in maintaining computer systems, even computers that dish up music.

Then there's sound quality. Not every one believes streaming delivers optimal sonic quality. If it's good enough for you, fine by me.

The "any music you want to hear" argument doesn't work for me. I can spend the rest of my life discovering new music on LPs recorded over 20 years ago.

added note; i respect that some have decided to only do one format with their system. just a personal decision. i cannot argue with that. if so, just say that, and don't try to use other excuses not to stream that don't make sense, if that is the reason.

It's all personal decision. No one needs to justify why they don't do streaming but there are plenty of reasons (not excuses) for not making that choice.

 

[Holmz]

Yes, even if you decide to hold the other things steady, firmware updates will push the technology (and sound) forward. And are typically free. Programmable DACs have opened a new venue to improvement without trading in equipment.

….

The field of DSP has solidified pretty solidly in the last 50+ years.
There may be interface features, but sending out the signal as analogue is pretty much a solved problem.

 

[wil]

No offense but that's pretty lame in itself, if not arrogant.

The "streaming entity" (a StarTrek creature?) thus far is continually changing. I can understand why the non-assimilated are dis-inclined to participate. The music I like to hear is not continually changing, but streaming technology is. For some, the less time spent on technology, particularly moving target technology is more time for listening.

Do streaming technology implementations keep up with changing streaming service codecs? How often do Web browsers require updating? It's hardware and software technology. Have you had any software updates on your various Wadax devices? Is it possible that a streaming service may no longer support the operating system of your streamer? Have you ever had an internet outage? Some people have no interest in maintaining computer systems, even computers that dish up music.

Then there's sound quality. Not every one believes streaming delivers optimal sonic quality. If it's good enough for you, fine by me.

The "any music you want to hear" argument doesn't work for me. I can spend the rest of my life discovering new music on LPs recorded over 20 years ago.



It's all personal decision. No one needs to justify why they don't do streaming but there are plenty of reasons (not excuses) for not making that choice.

I don’t experience any of the long list of hassles and problems listed in the above post. What I do have is excellent sound quality, depending on recording, of course, as with any medium.

It’s interesting to me why 100% vinyl guys take such an interest in streaming without actually having personal experience of well implemented systems which use streaming.

This is why I would advise anyone who might be on this forum in order to learn, to pay attention to someone like Mike L who has built mature systems in both digital and analog and ignore the inevitable, digital analog debates that keep cropping up like an antibiotic-resistant infection.

 

[Iamrael]

No offense but that's pretty lame in itself, if not arrogant.

The "streaming entity" (a StarTrek creature?) thus far is continually changing. I can understand why the non-assimilated are dis-inclined to participate. The music I like to hear is not continually changing, but streaming technology is. For some, the less time spent on technology, particularly moving target technology is more time for listening.

Do streaming technology implementations keep up with changing streaming service codecs? How often do Web browsers require updating? It's hardware and software technology. Have you had any software updates on your various Wadax devices? Is it possible that a streaming service may no longer support the operating system of your streamer? Have you ever had an internet outage? Some people have no interest in maintaining computer systems, even computers that dish up music.

Then there's sound quality. Not every one believes streaming delivers optimal sonic quality. If it's good enough for you, fine by me.

The "any music you want to hear" argument doesn't work for me. I can spend the rest of my life discovering new music on LPs recorded over 20 years ago.



It's all personal decision. No one needs to justify why they don't do streaming but there are plenty of reasons (not excuses) for not making that choice.

Who in this day and age doesn’t stream some sort of media?
In terms of it being a moving target, no different than any other hobby/technology/industry you’re focused on. It’s just a matter of how leading edge you want to be.
I don’t think anyone is asking you or anyone to justify any choice, only to justify inconsistent reasoning.
My M3 has feature/performance updates offered by BMW every few months and typically every year they up engine HP, torque, etc.
There are many 3rd party hardware tweaks that are constantly being improved and offered that can upgrade performance as well as 3rd party software.
For some it’s worthwhile for other’s worthless.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

No offense but that's pretty lame in itself, if not arrogant.

The "streaming entity" (a StarTrek creature?) thus far is continually changing. I can understand why the non-assimilated are dis-inclined to participate.

i was being humorous and over the top with my 'Borg' reference. and trying to nudge people to stream.

The music I like to hear is not continually changing, but streaming technology is.

yes and no. it's very stable although just like analog there are new things to try if you want. but 5+ year old streamers and connectivity are still relevant if you use Roon. which is the dominant music management program. your home LAN and WiFi still work the same. if you were connected 5 years ago that part has not changed.

For some, the less time spent on technology, particularly moving target technology is more time for listening.

tried to express that streaming is easy and cheap and hopefully get people to just try it. streamers listen more than non streamers. the technical excuse does not hold water other than it's a fear/out of comfort zone mind set to just install it that get's in the way. but the reality is trivial.

Do streaming technology implementations keep up with changing streaming service codecs?

yes, transparent to the user.

How often do Web browsers require updating? It's hardware and software technology. Have you had any software updates on your various Wadax devices?

i've streamed with 4 different platforms since 2010. originally with a server built by my son using three different dacs and mostly Jriver software. then (2015) with the Taiko SGM server and Roon and the Lampi GG1.5, then (2016) the Aqua Formula, then the MSB Select II, then got the Taiko Extreme, and then (2022) the Wadax Ref Server and Dac.

use Tidal and Quboz and connectivity is no different than using the internet.

my Wadax has two ethernet service ports on the dac that do all updates in the background. my i-pad does do overnight updates no different than your laptop both for Roon and Apple issues.

the Wadax is hard wired for Roon. it's resident on the Wadax. but when i had the MSB and the Extreme it was not much different. except then you were prompted to do updates. again; really no different than your laptop. if you choose to pursue more exotic music management software then maybe it's not as slick. i don't know.

i am very technically ignorant. but this stuff is so simple.

Is it possible that a streaming service may no longer support the operating system of your streamer?

i think it's more that the OS of your laptop or i-pad might get outdated but that part does not effect streaming just your device, but not heard of any issues like that with Roon. it's very broadly supported.

Have you ever had an internet outage?

mostly only if i have a power outage. so not really an issue for streaming, as my barn is not covered by my 11kva NG generator.....only my house. so can't do vinyl or tape or CD's either in my listening room.

Some people have no interest in maintaining computer systems, even computers that dish up music.

fair. we all make choices. but if you are on the forum, then you have the hardware to stream if you also own a dac. if you don't have digital then no, you can't stream.

Then there's sound quality. Not every one believes streaming delivers optimal sonic quality. If it's good enough for you, fine by me.

it's variable, but can be equal or better than silver discs. and at it's best hold it's own outside of better pressings. the strength is the breath of access at remarkable quality.

The "any music you want to hear" argument doesn't work for me. I can spend the rest of my life discovering new music on LPs recorded over 20 years ago.

if you search for 100 pieces of music, you will find 95.

no doubt some of my 12,000 records are not accessible. but there are likely 25 close alternatives that could lead to fantastic musical discoveries considering the rich musical data accompanying each selection and then recommendations. it's a wonder once you just dip your toe. when i was processing (cleaning, sampling, reading jackets, organizing) my big 3000 pressing acquisition i would search Roon for the title and then it would lead me off down the road of alternative or similar musical choices. it made my process much richer. filled in gaps and answered questions. it's a tool that is a joy to use since there is always music connected to the information.

It's all personal decision. No one needs to justify why they don't do streaming but there are plenty of reasons (not excuses) for not making that choice.

sure. just most reasons are not real. a few are.

hard to imagine a serious audiophile, or hifi reviewer, in 2025, not being educated on streaming. it's what's going on. like whether the world is flat or not. there is just so much to it that the knowledge of what it can do is essential. just waiting to take you to new and interesting places. then kick it to the curb if it's not for you.

life throws musical references at us all the time that jog some musical memory and streaming allows you to immediately scratch that itch. sometimes even a commercial or TV program or just something someone says. streaming has the answer WITH the music at high quality played on your system.....and away you go.

 

[Elliot G.]

Streaming IMO is a wonderful ability. I have found so much music, both music I was not aware of both new and old and rediscovered a lot of old music that frankly I forgot about. If you like other formats that is great but you don't have the ability to just play stuff without cost or hassles that streaming allows.
The old arguments about what's format is better is not worth rehashing over and over again. You like records ? play them. As a store owner and a dealer people want streaming, almost all of them. That is what they want to buy. They can use it in thier homes, cars, boats, golf carts and headphones. BOOM

 

[PYP]

If I were a collector of fine vinyl, I'd probably stop there. Plenty to enjoy.

Since I am not, I'm thankful for streaming capabilities. One of the great features are the hyperlinks within Roon. These make learning about musicians (sidemen or leader) easy. Look up someone who just sounded great on that song. In seconds, view their discography (as available from Qobuz). Read a short (or long) bio. Review the links of "similar artists," whatever that may mean. Put a few albums into the "Listen Later" playlist (a one-click option). It is endless. And for those of us who are lazy in certain ways, a great way to discover music.

The other "feature" is rather esoteric. When reading a biography/auto-biography, one can listen along to the musical influences of a musician. And their own albums. If I owned the necessary vinyl, I would have done that while reading Murakami's Absolutely on Music - a conversation with Seiji Ozawa. That would have been enjoyable. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/nov/24/absolutely-on-music-haruki-murakami-review-seiji-ozawa

 

[Al M.]

No offense but that's pretty lame in itself, if not arrogant.

The "streaming entity" (a StarTrek creature?) thus far is continually changing. I can understand why the non-assimilated are dis-inclined to participate. The music I like to hear is not continually changing, but streaming technology is. For some, the less time spent on technology, particularly moving target technology is more time for listening.

Do streaming technology implementations keep up with changing streaming service codecs? How often do Web browsers require updating? It's hardware and software technology. Have you had any software updates on your various Wadax devices? Is it possible that a streaming service may no longer support the operating system of your streamer? Have you ever had an internet outage? Some people have no interest in maintaining computer systems, even computers that dish up music.

Then there's sound quality. Not every one believes streaming delivers optimal sonic quality. If it's good enough for you, fine by me.

The "any music you want to hear" argument doesn't work for me. I can spend the rest of my life discovering new music on LPs recorded over 20 years ago.



It's all personal decision. No one needs to justify why they don't do streaming but there are plenty of reasons (not excuses) for not making that choice.

Agreed, Tim.

The "any music you want to hear" argument doesn't work for me either. No one is entitled to tell people how they should listen to music, or that somehow access to all music available makes one a greater music lover while foregoing streaming somehow "limits" yourself in your music listening.

It's all a matter of preference. I have so much music at home already, with a number of CD albums even still unopened in their plastic wrap, and I can listen to that forever. And with my mode of listening, streaming would be a more of a distraction to my love of music than it would be useful. I like to get to know the structure and textures of a piece of music intimately, and therefore I like to listen to a piece repeatedly, if not many times over, not just once. To me personally this exploration in depth opens up much more riches of music than a more shallow exploration of music in breadth.*)

If someone else's mode of listening is different, and streaming works for them, that is great and all the power to them. Yet telling those who do not need and want streaming that they forego riches of music is preposterous and reeks of an unwarranted superiority complex.

And yes, I do sometimes explore music via streaming on laptop and headphones. Yet streaming is just not my main mode of listening.

_________________

*) Listening to a number of different interpretations of a single piece, greatly enabled by streaming, to a large extent is a different story altogether. When I make such comparisons, my attention is mostly focused on presentation and phrasing, not the structure of a piece. Certainly, in some cases different interpretations can shed new light on elements of structure and texture, but in order to explore structure and texture in depth I prefer to rely on a single performance, or start with it and stick with it for some time. Only then I may spread out.

 

[Al M.]

I don’t experience any of the long list of hassles and problems listed in the above post. What I do have is excellent sound quality, depending on recording, of course, as with any medium.

It’s interesting to me why 100% vinyl guys take such an interest in streaming without actually having personal experience of well implemented systems which use streaming.

This is why I would advise anyone who might be on this forum in order to learn, to pay attention to someone like Mike L who has built mature systems in both digital and analog and ignore the inevitable, digital analog debates that keep cropping up like an antibiotic-resistant infection.

The question of building a mature system in both digital and analog stands apart from preferences in listening to music. Why would I pay any attention to MikeL's preferences of listening, which make him an enthusiastic proponent of streaming, when mine differ as I explained in my previous post?

The question if you need or want streaming or not is to a large extent independent from the analog vs digital debate. As you know digital is my only source, which does not automatically mean that I am or should be interested in streaming.

 

[Rexp]

Firstly, streaming is not easy, what percentage of streamer/DACs sound great out the box.
Secondly, even when you find a good streamer/DAC you don't get to listen to millions of great recordings, 90% are horrid. Of course some folks have a higher horrid recording tolerance than others.

 

[Tangram]

It’s a lot easier to “be done” when you steer clear of digital sources. Analog sounds great, but there’s little chance of a quantum leap in the technology.

 

[PYP]

Firstly, streaming is not easy, what percentage of streamer/DACs sound great out the box.
Secondly, even when you find a good streamer/DAC you don't get to listen to millions of great recordings, 90% are horrid. Of course some folks have a higher horrid recording tolerance than others.

with all due respect, I have not found this to be the case. If one has the budget, something like the Grimm MU2 streamer/DAC is a great choice (there are other excellent options at this price point, of course). Sounds fine out of the box, but gets better over 30 days or so. The setup is easy and I say that as someone who gripes about poor interfaces.

It is a very lyrical player that can make you forget about gear and simply listen to music. Over time, if one wants, there are experiments upstream with passive or active filters, but these are just part of the usual audiophile FOMO. That said, depending upon one's environment and setup, enjoyable improvements can be had. Want to keep it simple? Try a passive filter with 30 to 90 day return privileges. Plug and play.

So far, the MU2 has been an option only if you are a Roon user. Apparently that will change with a software update next month. The MU2 implements Roon in a way that is sounds very good. And the integration of Qobuz is seamless.

With a setup that limits the multitude of noise vectors, many 44/16 recordings sound quite good, especially the newer offerings. Higher resolution are uniformly excellent. No fan of the Jazz golden age will be very satisfied, however, with most digital/streaming offerings, including many that are re-mastered. There are some wonderful exceptions, however. Of course, as with all media, the talent of the recording engineer is paramount.

I think @Mike Lavigne 's post is best aimed at folks who are not collectors and who may be reading WBF to understand the possibilities of different setups. Some may have formed the opinion that streaming is complex and therefore not worth pursuing. It needn't be. I join him in encouraging those who are still exploring options to consider streaming. You don't need to be a network administrator As expected, there is a learning curve just as there is for any type of learning.