What are the Top Horn Speakers in the World Today? Vox Olympian vs Avantgarde Trio vs ???

[Hornsolutions Swen]

Möchten Sie das erklären? Ich habe keine Meinung dazu, bin aber daran interessiert, es zu erfahren.

I’ve attached two images that, in my view, demonstrate a discreet and technically impeccable design. This is a three-way crossover, not a four-way one. Even if it were a four-way design, the setup would still appear clean and organized.

Of course, everyone is free to evaluate and appreciate the design based on their own preferences and priorities. Personally, I’m a strong advocate for discrete circuits and a straightforward, logical layout without unnecessary embellishments. In my opinion, an analog crossover should ideally be constructed as discretely as possible to ensure exceptional signal quality and clarity. This naturally includes short, lossless connections to maintain optimal performance.
Last but not least, a crossover’s purpose is to separate the drivers or ways, not to correct the frequency response. If frequency response correction is needed, the issue lies elsewhere—whether in the horn, drivers, enclosure, damping, or the combination of these elements. These root causes should be investigated and addressed first.
The design stands out due to the following features:


1. Carefully optimized spacing between the air coils to prevent any interference.


2. No assemblies or components that could disrupt one another.


3. Only four resistors are used instead of an excessive number, such as 50. (Why would a four-way crossover even require so many resistors?)


4. Air coils with a 3 mm² wire diameter and fully insulated wiring located beneath the upper assembly.


5. A 500 x 1000 x 3 mm copper plate with an optimally switchable grounding function forms the base of the entire setup.


6. The lower wiring is fully supported by POM mounts for stability and insulation.


7. The entire upper assembly is mounted on five low-frequency dampers, precisely tuned to the weight of the structure for optimal vibration control.


8. The resistance is below 0.1 ohms, ensuring virtually lossless signal processing.


9. Dimensions:


• Width: 22.84 inches (approx. 58 cm)


• Depth: 46.46 inches (approx. 118 cm)


• Height: 10.24 inches (approx. 26 cm)


• Weight: 260.14 pounds (approx. 118 kg)


Best regards,

 

[Al M.]

I’ve attached two images that, in my opinion, showcase a discreet and technically perfect design. This is a three-way crossover, not a four-way one. Even with four ways, the setup wouldn’t appear chaotic. The design is characterized by the following features:

1. Optimal spacing between the air coils to prevent interference.

2. No mutually interfering assemblies or components.

3. Instead of 50 resistors, only 4 are used.
Why would a four-way crossover need so many resistors?

4. Air coils with a wire diameter of 3 mm² and fully insulated wiring beneath the upper assembly.

5. A 500 x 1000 x 3 mm copper plate with an optimally switchable grounding function lies beneath the entire setup.

6. The lower wiring is fully supported by POM mounts.

7. The entire upper assembly is mounted on five low-frequency dampers, precisely tuned to the weight of the structure.

8. The resistance is below 0.1 ohms, ensuring virtually lossless signal processing.

9. Dimensions:

• Width: 22.84 inches (approx. 58 cm)
• Depth: 46.46 inches (approx. 118 cm)
• Height: 10.24 inches (approx. 26 cm)
• Weight: 260.14 pounds (approx. 118 kg)

Best regards,
S

Thank you, Swen.

 

[Kingrex]

Thanks for telling me that my never carried project of buying an used pair of used of cheap AG Trio's, geting rid of the passive crossover and building a system using an array of Bottlehead SETs and an active crossover was probably a good idea!

BTW, the idea came from reading about Paul Stubblebine own system based om Magico M6 speakers. See: https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/what-magico-speaker-is-this.11663/post-210825

I have always wondered this myself. Horns seem to be the perfect speaker to experiment with multi amping and active crossovers. Everything is exposed.

I have become more aware how critical the design of the horn and the installed driver are. Van Zyl has worked for 20 years perfectting the BB10 sub. Even the fins inside the horn are critical to the way it voises.

It seems to me, horns have the potential to be the absolute pinnacle of performance. But they appear take work. You have to invest time and mental energy. And some money. But not crazy money, to dial them in.
Then again, if you have a wallet without a bottom, you can purchase your way to great sound.

 

[Kozak170]

Full measurements — most importantly a step response (or impulse response) alongside frequency/phase and near-field data — are required to assess time alignment and integration.

By the way, I have a question for you. You said that measurements like impulse/step response ultimately show whether a speaker is phase-coherent or not. Now, from these graphs of three different high-end speakers, can you guess which one is truly phase-coherent?

 

[PeterA]

You may have noticed in a prior post that I mentioned that speakers that are meant to be used by amplifiers of high output impedance (such as most SETs) must have level controls in the crossover. If they do not, the speaker can't be adjusted to the power response of the amplifier used. So the result can be a frequency response error. SETs are what I call Power Paradigm technology in that neither the amps nor speakers used with them are Voltage driven; instead they are power driven and the amp acts more like a power source than a Voltage source.

If you mix the two technologies you usually get a tonal aberration of some sort (like brightness or no bass). More info.

Ralph, my horns have this dial at the crossover which controls the level of the upper horn from 500 to 15,000 Hz. I find it quite useful for locating the most natural tonal balance across the frequency range.

 

[Kozak170]

Ralph, my horns have this dial at the crossover which controls the level of the upper horn from 500 to 15,000 Hz. I find it quite useful for locating the most natural tonal balance across the frequency range.

Peter, may I ask if you have a DIY horn?

 

[Al M.]

When I heard wth horns years ago, I always claimed the same thing, but I was proven wrong. Something like that can keep up quite well.

Expolinear Lautsprecher T-420 L

Expolinear Berlin, High End Elektroakustik

www.expolinear.de

The magnetostatic and extremely lightweight Görlich drivers are dynamically truly enjoyable. Even horn fans will say so after hearing. promise

My first speakers back in the day, Ensemble Reference, had Görlich drivers (I used them until 2016). They were very dynamic indeed, and fellow audiophiles praised their dynamics when they came to visit.

My current speakers are more dynamic still.

 

[LL21]

Peter, may I ask if you have a DIY horn?

Peter A has Vitavox CN-191 corner horn speakers. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/natural-sound.32867/

 

[gleeds]

For me, horns have an advantage other speakers cannot match, and that is a lack of compression, albeit specific line arrays can approach this. Undoubtedly, there is a purity when employing simple crossovers and SE amplifiers to well-executed pure horn designs.
Of course, other challenges need to be overcome as with any loudspeaker type, be it ribbon, planar, electrostatic, dynamic, or horn hybrid. I think it's excellent, the subject of time coherence has come up.

Among my favorite loudspeakers ever (which I still own but rarely get to use) are Quad 63 US Monitors. Stand in the adjacent room, and you will swear there is live music playing because of the loudspeaker's impeccable time coherence. What is missing is real-world dynamics, and of course, the last octave or two of bass! To say the least, everything has its compromises, but I completely understand how a perfectly executed horn system can be the ultimate music experience for many members.

I am a big fan of Destination Audio and, more recently, Odeon's. In my limited experience with the genre, I believe Vassil of Chicago Hi-Fi is, to my knowledge, the most knowledgeable full-range horn expert in North America. His system utilizes components from Cessaro and his own custom crossover, and is combined with a new two-way horn-loaded bass system (not shown) that sounds remarkable.

 

[LL21]

I’ve attached two images that, in my view, demonstrate a discreet and technically impeccable design. This is a three-way crossover, not a four-way one. Even if it were a four-way design, the setup would still appear clean and organized.

Of course, everyone is free to evaluate and appreciate the design based on their own preferences and priorities. Personally, I’m a strong advocate for discrete circuits and a straightforward, logical layout without unnecessary embellishments. In my opinion, an analog crossover should ideally be constructed as discretely as possible to ensure exceptional signal quality and clarity. This naturally includes short, lossless connections to maintain optimal performance.
Last but not least, a crossover’s purpose is to separate the drivers or ways, not to correct the frequency response. If frequency response correction is needed, the issue lies elsewhere—whether in the horn, drivers, enclosure, damping, or the combination of these elements. These root causes should be investigated and addressed first.
The design stands out due to the following features:


1. Carefully optimized spacing between the air coils to prevent any interference.


2. No assemblies or components that could disrupt one another.


3. Only four resistors are used instead of an excessive number, such as 50. (Why would a four-way crossover even require so many resistors?)


4. Air coils with a 3 mm² wire diameter and fully insulated wiring located beneath the upper assembly.


5. A 500 x 1000 x 3 mm copper plate with an optimally switchable grounding function forms the base of the entire setup.


6. The lower wiring is fully supported by POM mounts for stability and insulation.


7. The entire upper assembly is mounted on five low-frequency dampers, precisely tuned to the weight of the structure for optimal vibration control.


8. The resistance is below 0.1 ohms, ensuring virtually lossless signal processing.


9. Dimensions:


• Width: 22.84 inches (approx. 58 cm)


• Depth: 46.46 inches (approx. 118 cm)


• Height: 10.24 inches (approx. 26 cm)


• Weight: 260.14 pounds (approx. 118 kg)


Best regards,

I am going to open up an opportunity here for Horn Solutions (if Swen you are happy to do so)...in the context of the OP which was "What are the top horns today?..." Did you wish to describe your work in a bit more overall detail as your own effort to create a Top Horn Speaker?

Personally, I am intrigued by what Horn Solutions is doing...all out assault using the backbone of Western Electric designs (WE15a, WE66?, 666 compression driver, etc, etc)...and then creating customized solutions for those seeking the combination of all-out performance balanced with the inevitable considerations of cost and sheer size...the Horn Solution Masterpiece is MASSIVE!

Swen - if you have time, would be most intrigued by what you are doing, why and how...(at least how to as technical degree as you have time for and others may wish to understand).

- Why did you choose Western Electric
- What are the differences between 15a and 66a?
- What are the differences between the Masterpiece and Masterpiece Mini in performance terms?
- How are you thinking about bass and integration...you have created multiple solutions
- What do you think might be different about your system (high level) in comparison with how other designers have approached big horns (AG, Living Voice come to mind and have been one of the most frequently mentioned)

 

[PeterA]

Peter, may I ask if you have a DIY horn?

No. I have a very early version of Vitavox CN-191 corner horns from the late 50s. You can see the dial to control the level of the upper horn on the right section of the crossover in the lower photograph.

 

[bonzo75]

My first speakers back in the day, Ensemble Reference, had Görlich drivers (I used them until 2016). They were very dynamic indeed, and fellow audiophiles praised their dynamics when they came to visit.

My current speakers are more dynamic still.

This is a horn thread. If you want to continue to talk about “your owned speakers” dynamics, do so on your thread or get a horn. Right now you are on two different threads simultaneously on how dynamic the speakers you own are. We all get it, really get it, how good they are. Feel free to post on Ron’s system thread how your speakers are the most dynamic as that thread is a free for all.

 

[morricab]

For me, horns have an advantage other speakers cannot match, and that is a lack of compression, albeit specific line arrays can approach this. Undoubtedly, there is a purity when employing simple crossovers and SE amplifiers to well-executed pure horn designs.
Of course, other challenges need to be overcome as with any loudspeaker type, be it ribbon, planar, electrostatic, dynamic, or horn hybrid. I think it's excellent, the subject of time coherence has come up.

Among my favorite loudspeakers ever (which I still own but rarely get to use) are Quad 63 US Monitors. Stand in the adjacent room, and you will swear there is live music playing because of the loudspeaker's impeccable time coherence. What is missing is real-world dynamics, and of course, the last octave or two of bass! To say the least, everything has its compromises, but I completely understand how a perfectly executed horn system can be the ultimate music experience for many members.

I am a big fan of Destination Audio and, more recently, Odeon's. In my limited experience with the genre, I believe Vassil of Chicago Hi-Fi is, to my knowledge, the most knowledgeable full-range horn expert in North America. His system utilizes components from Cessaro and his own custom crossover, and is combined with a new two-way horn-loaded bass system (not shown) that sounds remarkable.



View attachment 157676

Line Arrays kind of get there because you are using multiple drivers to do the work of a horn with a single driver. I love Odeons (had four pairs over the years and still have one pair) and some of my friends have them as well. Great dynamics and resolution without coloration. They were the first speakers to convince me horns could be uncolored.

 

[Kozak170]

No. I have a very early version of Vitavox CN-191 corner horns from the late 50s. You can see the dial to control the level of the upper horn on the right section of the crossover in the lower photograph.

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Peter, that’s a really impressive system you have. Those early Vitavox corner horns are a rare and special setup. I’m curious about your personal experience with your previous Magico system, how long could you usually listen before any listener fatigue set in? And now with the Vitavox horns, how long can you comfortably listen without fatigue? It would be very interesting to hear how the differences in distortion, dynamics, and dispersion translate into real-world listening comfort.

 

[Kozak170]

Just repeating the same misleading arguments. There is no thermal compression at typical sound levels in good non-horn speakers.
If you have physical evidence of it prove it with measurements.

Curiously that people do not address the real differences between horns and other speakers, mainly the distortion and the dispersion, and focus on sorcery.

Thermal compression isn’t complicated, it’s just basic physics (Joule heating). When each voice coil is fed with 100–200 watts, through a thin 0.2–0.7 mm wire, resistance inevitably rises as it heats up. That rise in resistance reduces current flow, output drops, and dynamics are compressed. Even at moderate listening levels, voice-coil temperatures can rise tens of degrees above ambient. This has been documented in AES papers and Klippel measurements on conventional drivers, not just horns.

Calling thermal compression ‘sorcery’ is like in ancient times — when someone discovered a new law of nature, people thought he was a sorcerer and wanted to burn him at the stake. It wasn’t magic then and it isn’t magic now, it’s just physics. The only thing burning today is the voice coil when you pump 200 watts through it.

 

[Al M.]

This is a horn thread. If you want to continue to talk about “your owned speakers” dynamics, do so on your thread or get a horn. Right now you are on two different threads simultaneously on how dynamic the speakers you own are. We all get it, really get it, how good they are. Feel free to post on Ron’s system thread how your speakers are the most dynamic as that thread is a free for all.

Why the unwarranted anger?

I was just responding to the post of a fan of horns and other high-efficiency speakers who was comparing the dynamics of certain cone drivers to horn speakers.

Re-read the post by DasguteOhr and you will see that my response was commensurate with his post.

 

[andromedaaudio]

We all get it, really get it, how good they are.

One piece of evidence is still missing ....Al s system Video

 

[PeterA]

Peter, that’s a really impressive system you have. Those early Vitavox corner horns are a rare and special setup. I’m curious about your personal experience with your previous Magico system, how long could you usually listen before any listener fatigue set in? And now with the Vitavox horns, how long can you comfortably listen without fatigue? It would be very interesting to hear how the differences in distortion, dynamics, and dispersion translate into real-world listening comfort.

Thank you Kodak. My dealer David Karmeli thinks this is the only pair of Vitavox of this vintage in North America. Yes, it is extremely rare. Also interesting is that Vladimir Lamm when asked what the ideal speakers for his ML2 amplifiers might be, he told David to find a very early pair of these speakers. Vladimir did not think David could find one. It took him 20 years to find the second matched speaker.

The answers to your interesting questions are all in my system thread. Suffice it to say, I enjoyed the old system very much and could listen for hours without fatigue, especially after I reoriented the Magicos to aim straight ahead, but this system simply sounds more natural. It is much more dynamic and resolving of the information on the recording. I have no listening fatigue as long as I play below the extreme levels the system is capable of producing.

 

[Hornsolutions Swen]

Nein. Ich besitze eine sehr frühe Version der Vitavox CN-191 Eckhörner aus den späten 50er Jahren. Auf dem unteren Foto ist der Drehregler zur Pegelregelung des oberen Horns im rechten Bereich der Frequenzweiche zu sehen.

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Very cool piece of hi-fi history. The S2 compression driver used in the CN191 is still a completely underrated design to this day. The Vitavox GP1 receives even less attention. For me, it’s a true inspiration. Congratulations, and enjoy it further!

 

[bonzo75]

Why the unwarranted anger?

Coz Nobody's going to take this thread and raze it to the ground
Nobody's going to take this thread and claim they own the best sound
Especially those with driving power, big fat amps and everything
Like complex cross, woofer control and everything

Ps: I have been requesting Leif videos, and this was a request to have both the leads...mandatory streaming to speaker required for headbanging

I love it. I need it. I feed on it. Coz I am a video ****.....