A Plea For High-End Audio Manufacturer Honesty and Transparency

[tima]

it is obvious u do no good for yourself or anyone here.

... well, you may not care for him of find him disagreeable -- and that's okay -- but Caeser does stir the pot and generate conversation.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

...page views, anyways.

 

[microstrip]

Mike, I respectfully disagree with you. Aren't you a Dartzeel owner??!?? I am not a solid state guy, but Dartzeel is definitely some of the best solid state I heard. And look at what happened to them. It's a real shame. Surely, it hurts you that such an excellent brand is struggling. No?

Nice turn-over. You systematically denigrate and insult with violence and now become a charitable guy. What is the "shame" in Dartzeel? The high-end is also a business. Unfortunately your style of posting kills any hope of a fair discussion of such subjects - IMO we do not need mud fights.

And the whole industry seems to be in recession, post Covid sugar rush. So I am not sure where you get "healthy and alive"

You are probably just looking at the US situation. Fortunately the world trends are different.

 

[wil]

... well, you may not care for him of find him disagreeable -- and that's okay -- but Caeser does stir the pot and generate conversation.

“Conversation” ??

 

[2ndLiner]

I have made the comparison in multiple systems - streaming is an overly smooth, watered down sound that lacks solidity and a good bass foundation compared to even basic and 25 year old CD transports. And so have my friends - same results. I would encourage all audiophiles who want the best digital to do the same.

For those who choose to stream, I would encourage people not to follow the internet herds but to compare Taiko to Wadax, MSB's soluti (which I also found superior to Taiko Extreme), Pink Faun, Antipodes, Grimm, etc.

No great revelation here, but physiologically we all hear differently and have different ideas about what a great system is. Currently, I have a Taiko Extreme with all the "trimmings" (their router & switch), Lampizator PAC2, and a Spectral SDR 3000 transport. As streaming from Qobuz or Tidal is dependent on the file version they choose sometimes the Spectral delivers better sound but more often I prefer the sound delivered by my Taiko system. While I don't have a background in human behavior studies other than what I've been able to observe via many interactions with humans during my life I have been a musician for 50 years, both live and recording in a multitude of venues, which does inform my sense of what sounds believable and accurate. I also get my hearing tested yearly and all is surprisingly good there. My invitation to come by for a listen remains

 

[Geardaddy]

Personally I think the issue of dishonest industry members who attempt to fool others is beyound the reality of what actually is the case and this thread is largely click-bait. There are the self-righteous who think they are exposing great injustice with generalisations. There are those who think the man is out to get them. There are the gullible who may make poor decisions and look for either payback or someone to plead their case. And there are rabble-rousers who like to stir the pot with inflammatory statements.

What I don't see is many people coming forward to describe how they personally were cheated or stolen from.

No, it's a reality. It's not click-bait. I could write pages on what I have experienced and name names, but I am choosing not to at this time partly due to the fact the perpetrators are not redeemable IMO, committing crimes and then playing the victim in a fit of faux virtue. Sociopathy at its finest. I do think Ron should have broadened the scope of the thread to include "dealers and distributors" as they often play a symbiotic role.

 

[2ndLiner]

Wow! Some interesting takes here.

My points of view FWIW...
1) Like any industry I have been close to there are a spectrum of characters in high-end audio. I have found most organizations and people to be quite trustworthy. I have also found some to be less than ideal. But, I do think it is important to remember that a small fraction of bad actors can create an oversized impression.
2) Because of the small budgets and talent pool, R&D and testing become constrained. I don't know anyway around this. Do you think that MSB bought a Wadax Reference and a dCS Varese in developing the upcoming Sentinel? Do you think that Taiko has tested the Olympus with a wide variety of connections and environments, etc? Maybe they did but my point is just that R&D is very expensive.
3) Because most companies are quite small (let's say <500 FTEs and annual revenue < $100M), there are not the usual rules of play and engagement. In a larger industry a combination of competition and legal actions keep things somewhat more in check. In audio, what are you going to do? Sue the dealer, distributor and manufacturer? For what? You'll spend $100,000 on legal to recover what, $100,000? Consumer optionality and sentiment isn't a 'thing'. For all practical purposes and intents, if you shutdown negative sentiment on WBF you have effectively stopped the spread of bad sentiment. And I think we all know that there are easy ways for a mfr/distributor/dealer to do that - and it's cheap!
4) How is this industry any different than the startup world? Fake it until you make it!
5) I find that the bad behavior exists throughout the chain. Compare the following and you tell me which is worse? a) A manufacturer taking deposits and using them to finish development on a product, b) A dealer/distributor/manufacturer in cahoots with 'influencers' that masquerade as enthusiastic hobbyists/audiophiles on forums like WBF to share the audio nirvana they've found denying any affiliation with the dealer/distributor/manufacturer.

As long as the manufacturer is honest about what they are doing Option A is fine...

 

[Dierkx1]

When I read about a piece of gear that I may be interested in , I always ask myself , having a behavioral science background:
Why is it popular?
who’s pitching it?
how many people are pitching it?
how many people the diverse tastes pitching?
what "authorities"/ reviewers are owning the marketing for it?

and what combination of social networks and authority figures are talking about, which amplifies the influence

Etc, etc, etc, etc…. Along many other questions

I'm a novice here, but the first question for me is "how does it sound" and then "does the sound match my preferences"

 

[Porsche]

some of you think way to much into this hobby, listen for yourself and make your own educated decision, pretty simple

 

[tima]

“Conversation” ??

whatever label you want to put on it, responses vary.

 

[tima]

... I could write pages on what I have experienced and name names, but I am choosing not to at this time partly due to the fact the perpetrators are not redeemable IMO, committing crimes and then playing the victim in a fit of faux virtue. Sociopathy at its finest. ...

I thought the rationale behind naming names was not redemption, but to inform others who might fall victim.

My level of helpfulness is not so great that it overcomes the potential of liability.

 

[Ron Resnick]

As long as the manufacturer is honest about what they are doing Option A is fine...

Can you please give us examples of this actually happening? How many friends of yours were ready to order an announced product and were told by the manufacturer "we're going to use your order money to finish developing the product and then to test the product. We don't know when a production sample will be ready to be delivered to you."

 

[2ndLiner]

Can you please give us examples of this actually happening? How many friends of yours were ready to order an announced product and were told by the manufacturer "we're going to use your order money to finish developing the product and then to test the product. We don't know when a production sample will be ready to be delivered to you."

No one I know of, I was speaking hypothetically. If say, Ken Shindo had an idea that was nearing fruition but needed money to complete R&D, I could imagine some of his loyal followers participating in such a thing...

 

[pk_LA]

The irony of what is happening as this thread stirs is incredible.

 

[pk_LA]

incredible

To be fair to all the 'enthusiasts/audiophiles/influencers/promoters' on the site, I am merely a consumer. So the couple things brewing right now are quite entertaining to me. Apologies if I am not more sensitive towards you!

 

[Ron Resnick]

No one I know of, I was speaking hypothetically. If say, Ken Shindo had an idea that was nearing fruition but needed money to complete R&D, I could imagine some of his loyal followers participating in such a thing...

That sounds like a very different scenario than somebody who sees a product announcement and calls up his/her dealer to purchase the component.

That's what GoFundMe is for.

 

[Ron Resnick]

incredible @Ron Resnick are u really asking for concrete examples when u essentially instigate without being willing to provide your own?

Hobbyist friends are different than manufacturers.

 

[ctydwn]

Hobbyist friends are different than manufacturers.

Still waiting for your concrete examples to your assertions that this is actually happening, as well as what you have done to speak with these manufacturers directly rather than throw out accusations:

Your first post:
“Manufacturers should not announce product release dates which are not realistic.

Manufacturers should not take payments for products which are not yet actually fully designed and actually fully tested and actually in production or ready for immediate production.

Manufacturers should not use early-adopting purchasers as beta testers.”

 

[2ndLiner]

That sounds like a very different scenario than somebody who sees a product announcement and calls up his/her dealer to purchase the component.

That's what GoFundMe is for.

I agree, it is different. The parameters of my hypothetical scenario involve transparency by the manufacturer...

 

[Ron Resnick]

Still waiting for your concrete examples to your assertions that this is happening:

Your first post:
“Manufacturers should not announce product release dates which are not realistic.

Manufacturers should not take payments for products which are not yet actually fully designed and actually fully tested and actually in production or ready for immediate production.

Manufacturers should not use early-adopting purchasers as beta testers.”

See my Post #157, above.