SET amp owners thread

There are 5 parts to a set amplifier:
1. The chassis and overall layout of parts and components.
2. The design of the audio circuit.
3. The design of the power supply.
4. The design and selection of the passive components.
5. The design and construction of all of the transformers.

They are all interrelated and no one part is more important than the others. The output transformer should not present a challenge to any competent transformer designer/manufacturer. The general problem with SET amplifiers is that it takes money to make a good SET amplifier and many manufacturers cut corners and don't address one or more of the 5 parts above. A really good SET designer/manufacturer will have addressed all of these parts very carefully.
Many SET 'designers' simply buy the parts (including the OPT) and assemble the amp from a circuit they found. The transformer is the tricky bit since the size of the core vs the gap to prevent DC saturation is key to getting bass performance. The larger the transformer, the more critical the winding quality must be to prevent distributed capacitance from limiting high frequency response. They are much harder to build than output transformers for PP tube amps as a result, and usually lack the bandwidth at both extremes compared to PP transformers of the same power rating.
The issue with driving a speaker like the DeVore, or any speaker using a large driver (10" and above) is the SET amplifier has to over come the large back EMF produced from the large driver. The bass performance as the volume increases becomes intolerable as the amp simply cannot control the cone. To drive these with a SET you need at least a 211 driving the cone, or you use a little bit of feedback to lower the amplifiers output impedance. I have measured the Airtight 300B and it only delivers about 4 watts max. It drives the speaker better if you switch in some feedback via the feedback switch, but then you lose all the SE sound quality.
Emphasis added: these statements are false. The latter first: Feedback does not destroy the 'SE sound' if applied properly. It can do it quite readily if improperly applied, which is to say its the designer's fault and not that of feedback if one feels the highlighted statement above to be true.

The former: There's no problem of an amp of high output impedance controlling the cone of the DeVore 10" drivers or for that matter a 15" driver, if the speaker (as in the case of the DeVore) is designed for such amps. More on this topic.

Clearly it is the problem of some SETs whose load lines have become elliptical at the frequencies (bass) that the cone delivers. That is a weakness of SETs (previously explained) and clearly some are better at this than others.

It should be pointed out that no SET can deliver full power at 20Hz (due to a lack of inductance in the OPT; so we see right here that no matter the components, layout, power supply or design of the circuit, that the OPT is paramount). They may well have low power response that low with no problem. But as everyone knows bass frequencies are where most of the power in audio occurs.
 
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Many SET 'designers' simply buy the parts (including the OPT) and assemble the amp from a circuit they found. The transformer is the tricky bit since the size of the core vs the gap to prevent DC saturation is key to getting bass performance. The larger the transformer, the more critical the winding quality must be to prevent distributed capacitance from limiting high frequency response. They are much harder to build than output transformers for PP tube amps as a result, and usually lack the bandwidth at both extremes compared to PP transformers of the same power rating.
I am aware of all of that, having been designing and making SET amps for the last 30 years. Any interstage or output transformer does require great care and attention to get right, in particular to match the circuit design of the amplifier. The point I was making is that everything is important in the design of a SET amplifier, not just the transformers, or the type of valve used.

Emphasis added: these statements are false. The latter first: Feedback does not destroy the 'SE sound' if applied properly. It can do it quite readily if improperly applied, which is to say its the designer's fault and not that of feedback if one feels the highlighted statement above to be true.
My reference to this comment was aimed at the AirTight ATM300B (as AirTight was mentioned in this thread), where there is a feedback switch on the top panel which AirTight advised the owners of high efficiency loudspeakers to simply switch the switch into the feedback position if noise became an issue. It did become an issue with anything over 98dB efficiency being created by the design of the 300B filament circuit. Switching the feedback into circuit resulted in a definite loss of sound quality, as well as lowering the gain along with the noise, as you would expect. I believe the switch just connected global feedback from the secondary winding of the output transformer to the input driver stage.
Note: my other company G T Audio imported AirTight into the UK for about 2 years, so I had direct experience with all their models.

The former: There's no problem of an amp of high output impedance controlling the cone of the DeVore 10" drivers or for that matter a 15" driver, if the speaker (as in the case of the DeVore) is designed for such amps. More on this topic.

Clearly it is the problem of some SETs whose load lines have become elliptical at the frequencies (bass) that the cone delivers. That is a weakness of SETs (previously explained) and clearly some are better at this than others.
I am aware of this two, G T Audio also having been the UK representative for DeVore for 7 years, I can tell you that most 300B based SET amps will struggle to power the bass driver in the Orangutan models as you push past normal listening levels. Anything above normal listening levels and the bass becomes very difficult to control, especially on heavily modulated/complex music. Yes, SETs will drive these speakers but a more powerful SET, like a 211 based for example works considerably better as I have demonstrated at Hi-Fi Shows. Having said that, the 15" driver that is in the Klipsch Cornwall IV works very well with some SET amplifiers, but then you would expect that with the efficiency of the speaker being more suited to SET amps. One of my clients is currently having great success with his 300B amplifier driving a pair of Wolf Von Langa Stage's. I believe these use a 12" driver and certainly no criticism about the quality of the bass.

It should be pointed out that no SET can deliver full power at 20Hz (due to a lack of inductance in the OPT; so we see right here that no matter the components, layout, power supply or design of the circuit, that the OPT is paramount). They may well have low power response that low with no problem. But as everyone knows bass frequencies are where most of the power in audio occurs.
G T Audio has also been the UK distributor for speaker brands like Avantgarde Acoustic (17 years) and Cessaro (10 years) and both of these speaker manufacturers include powered bass, some from 220Hz down and the larger higher end models from 100Hz and below, so not having to power deep bass at high levels is the perfect arena for a good quality SET amplifier.
 
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I think the main problem with the Devore O/96s is that they are spec’d at 96dB but in fact they are closer to 92dB in actual measurements.
92dB is a sensitivity that is certainly not a recommended load for an 8w single ended amplifier, especially if you want to listen beyond moderate levels and in medium to large rooms.
 
most 300B based SET amps will struggle to power the bass driver in the Orangutan models as you push past normal listening levels. Anything above normal listening levels and the bass becomes very difficult to control, especially on heavily modulated/complex music.
I agree with your clarifications (thanks!), except this one; I don't think its a matter of 'control' so much as the lower powered SETs are just falling apart as they get pushed harder to make bass on this speaker.

The reason I say this is we make zero feedback triode class A OTLs and have a number of customers with DeVores. Our smallest OTL (S-30) was reviewed on the O96 quite recently. It has an output impedance that is higher than most SETs but it has no problem 'controlling' the woofer of this speaker ( and can make full power at 4Hz FWIW).

IOW OTLs can have a high output impedance, but don't have an issue of inductance in an output transformer subjecting the tube to a non-linear operating point.

If the only tube amps with high output impedance to which you might have been exposed were SETs, it would be very easy to conclude that the high output impedance is why the amps don't control the speaker, but that isn't what is happening here. Instead ts a good example of how inadequate inductance in the output transformer messes with the low end of an SET. It certainly is no help if the speaker is less than advertised efficiency either so its also easy to see why a higher powered SET manages a bit better.
 
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So… Yet another thread morphs into an Atmasphere Co OTL/ClassD Infomercial :rolleyes: seriously WBF ! what’s the point of creating this ring fenced commercial sub forum ?


This went from a thread celebrating SET amplification to some warped lecture series meant to disabuse us of our own pleasures.
 
I think the main problem with the Devore O/96s is that they are spec’d at 96dB but in fact they are closer to 92dB in actual measurements.
92dB is a sensitivity that is certainly not a recommended load for an 8w single ended amplifier, especially if you want to listen beyond moderate levels and in medium to large rooms.

Ricardo Franassovici of AbsoluteSounds (UK) assembled what he considers a artisan' hi-fi separates system using the O/96 and Jadis SE300B. The Hifi News review of the system https://www.hifinews.com/content/jadis-jpl-mkiise300b-devore-fidelity-o96-tube-ampspeaker-system carries measurements by Paul Miller of the complete system, with some particular comments on the O/96 sensitivity.

Curiously the HifiNews anechoic frequency response graph is very different from the Stereophile one.
 
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Can someone recommend a used Speaker for a 300b set amp .
Not expensive , not looking to fill a room , nearfield would be fine .
If I need a sub later I'm cool too .
I use a 300b headphone amp and would love to hear it in a speaker for it .
 
Can someone recommend a used Speaker for a 300b set amp .
Not expensive , not looking to fill a room , nearfield would be fine .
If I need a sub later I'm cool too .
I use a 300b headphone amp and would love to hear it in a speaker for it .
Check out Decware.
 
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I think the main problem with the Devore O/96s is that they are spec’d at 96dB but in fact they are closer to 92dB in actual measurements.
92dB is a sensitivity that is certainly not a recommended load for an 8w single ended amplifier, especially if you want to listen beyond moderate levels and in medium to large rooms.

That just refers to loudness and is not a problem at all because they are easy to drive iirc 10 ohm impedance. Tannoy are 100db and much more difficult to get their driver to move. A 95 db multi driver speaker that will have impedance swings to 2 ohm or so and requiring grip for the woofer will also be much harder.
 
That just refers to loudness and is not a problem at all because they are easy to drive iirc 10 ohm impedance. Tannoy are 100db and much more difficult to get their driver to move. A 95 db multi driver speaker that will have impedance swings to 2 ohm or so and requiring grip for the woofer will also be much harder.
Yes, there’s ease of drive that relates to the impedance behavior and there’s headroom and loudness related to the speaker’s sensitivity.
Bottom line, 8w are not enough for 92dB.
It’s nice for late night listening at 70-85dB, but if you want dynamic swings that may reach 100dB+, the image will collapse and you will mostly hear distortion (“nice” distortion because it is a tube amplifier).
 
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Yes, there’s ease of drive that relates to the impedance behavior and there’s headroom and loudness related to the speaker’s sensitivity.
Bottom line, 8w are not enough for 92dB.
It’s nice for late night listening at 70-85dB, but if you want dynamic swings that may reach 100dB+, the image will collapse and you will mostly hear distortion (“nice” distortion because it is a tube amplifier).
Who said 8? It's not 18 as claimed either, more like 12 or so I think. They are not SE either.

Also, you are confusing loudness, drive, gain, even in this post. No one is allowing me to play Beethoven 9th late night not even in my own home.

 
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Can someone recommend a used Speaker for a 300b set amp .
Not expensive , not looking to fill a room , nearfield would be fine .
If I need a sub later I'm cool too .
I use a 300b headphone amp and would love to hear it in a speaker for it .
Diatone p 610 phantastic nearfield speaker for 2A3 or 300b
The best version i have heard so far .3k price
 
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Can someone recommend a used Speaker for a 300b set amp .
Not expensive , not looking to fill a room , nearfield would be fine .
If I need a sub later I'm cool too .
I use a 300b headphone amp and would love to hear it in a speaker for it .
So you will buy an used speaker that is not full frequency range, and if it is not good, why do you think 300b or any amp will make it sound good?

Build one like Leif had, he drove it with 300b 7 watts, it had subs going to 15hz. from 75 to 15 hz was 92db, above was 100+.

And there are many videos to check and verify before going ahead with the project
 
Paul Miller's O96 review says a couple of things I have been saying on this forum for years:

1. You need a lot of space around it from the walls.

Paul: "The O/96s are less inclined to favour a corner or near-wall siting, delivering their most open and transparent sound when positioned clear of boundaries and toed-in towards the listening position. "

2. They are very transparent to recordings

Paul: "Transparency is a term all too readily bandied about in reviews, but the O/96s truly exhibit this quality. The instant you hear these boxes in action then 99% of other 'boxes' sound, well, like they need a kick up the pants to get them going. The O/96s simply do not reveal themselves as a 'sound source' – their 'touch' is so light that the faintest of notes and sounds seem to slip unhindered into the room. "
 
So… Yet another thread morphs into an Atmasphere Co OTL/ClassD Infomercial :rolleyes: seriously WBF ! what’s the point of creating this ring fenced commercial sub forum ?

I know...It can get a bit wearisome? But I have to admit that i do read Ralph's comments quite carefully, especially as I do not have his technical knowledge. I enjoyed his reference to Power typologies and whilst I do not give damm wether a 300B amp can deliver 20hz or not, I do care about extrapolating from measurement to what can be heard. If you take GT's 5 factors above then the there are 120 permutations add in the unintended consequences...Bring in Harry Seldon...You may well be able to hear what you measure but you can not measure what you experience
 
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Can someone recommend a used Speaker for a 300b set amp .
Not expensive , not looking to fill a room , nearfield would be fine .
If I need a sub later I'm cool too .
I use a 300b headphone amp and would love to hear it in a speaker for it .

Al , might you post the output rating for your amps as a guide for us to work with .

In the meantime I would recommend a pair of 1960’s Wharfedale W60’s which you should be able to pick up on the used market for $500 give or take for a nice pair , for my part I would look for the slightly earlier W60 as the later W60D can exhibit problems with the foam surrounds , they are a tad rolled off in the upper octaves , however they are quite lovely in the midrange and for near field listening .

Check out the many video posts from Don @No Regrets featuring his pair making beautiful music , several can be found in the female vocals thread Viz :




My only caviat being their min rating of 5 Watts /8 Ohms if memory serves , as your 300B amp might be on the borderline with the W60’s
 
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Al , might you post the output rating for your amps as a guide for us to work with .

In the meantime I would recommend a pair of 60’s Wharfedale W60’s which you should be able to pick up on the used market for $500 give or take for a nice pair , for my part I would look for the slightly earlier W60 as the later W60D can exhibit problems with the early foam surrounds , they are a little rolled off in the upper octaves , however they are quite lovely in the midrange and for near field listening .

Check out the many video posts from Don @No Regrets featuring his pair making beautiful music , several can be found in the female vocals thread Viz :


My only caviat being their min rating of 5 Watts /8 Ohms if memory serves , as your 300B amp might be on the borderline with the W60’s

Yes excellent recommendation
 
Possibly mk4 is better than the 3, haven’t heard it.

With Devore, I found the best results from NAF2a3 10 watts and airtight 300b, after trying many higher powered sets and push pulls
You mention above a 2A3 PSE or 300B, both are around 8-10W.
IMO, not enough to drive the O/96 to level I want to listen at (and I used to own an O/96).
 

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