Who has greatest power in influencing audiophiles in today's world? Dealers? Magazines/ Reviewers? Forums? Shows? Social Media Stars?
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In my neck of the woods, it's the so-called masters (coach, well learned elders etc). They have their own fiefdoms and they hang onto every word spoken. There are also those who thinks the masters are a bunch of bull and will actively avoid to have the same equipment.
All in all, these people take their hobby very seriously, and friendships have been put ont the line due to differences in opinions. My way or the highway.
All in all, these people take their hobby very seriously, and friendships have been put ont the line due to differences in opinions. My way or the highway.
The most reliable way is through word-of-mouth but takes time. Most of my clients are returning customers or those recommended by a customer. Magazine ads are too expensive (for me anyway) but I enjoy doing the shows. Some reviewers that are highly regarded as being honest are also a good way.
Social media hasn’t done much for us.
Things are much different these days as compared to when I started in 1996.
Social media hasn’t done much for us.
Things are much different these days as compared to when I started in 1996.
Thanks, Elliot. I start threads that interest me, but I am glad you are finding this one interesting, as I always value your deep experience, although we may not always agree 100 percent.
With that said, I kept the thread as broad as possible. My casual sense is that generally many audiophiles, that go to a show like Axpona, are still consumed with "accuracy", which magazines like Stereophile and others once celebrated.
But the magazines have really lost their power. There are many more decentralized voices today. I would tend to argue that as far as high end goes, this forum is much more influential than stereophile or The Analytical Sound, despite the band wagon embarassments of Taiko and dynamically challenged lampizator (not a bad DAC, but...).
Part of the reason is the erosion of trust. Under Robert Harley, a malignant cancer upon our beloved hobby, the Analytical Sound has prioritized mis-information (Magico greatest speaker reviewed, Berkeley Reference DAC is "best dac extant".) They have also normalized fraud and lies by covering up the Mofi fraud, upon many things. How can any capitalistic enterprise survive - including this hobby, where the leaders choose lies and misinformation over honesty and integrity?
And I am not even going to talk about Harley rejecting the economic Theory of Diminishing Returns because he heard some expensive cable from shunyata or audioquest. Must have been quite a platonic intellectual masturbation experience! The Nobel Prize committee will be awarding him shortly! What a desperate fool!
But seriously, the only guys who like Harley these days are industry insiders who are looking for a good review from him or naive fans and dealers who like him because he positively reviewed some brand they like... Thankfully, many more audio fans are coming to realize what garbage those guys are spewing...
And there is also a question of value. When magazines don't compare gear, how valuable is their work? John Atkinson of Stereophile recently reviewed the redesigned Magico speaker. What was the conclusion, other than he likes it?
Likewise, Kalman Rubinson of Stereophile recently reviewed a $4000 active bass trap. In a well written article, he liked it, concluding it improved the bass and soundstage. But did he compare it to a $40 bale of insulation from Home Depot or a $400 bass trap from GIK or Real Traps. I can assure anyone that bass trapping, regardless of price will product the same effect as his $4K gadget. Nothing personal against Kalman, but how valuable is his work, and that of Stereophile?
So this structural shift and fragmentation of forums, social media stars, everyone who makes a visit to hear a system and writes about it, etc., is exposing the garbage of the old media and is slowly killing the power of the old media. They certainly don't "make" a brand or product anymore, outside of very rare instances.
Here's a BRILLIANT quote from the late Art Dudley that gets to the accuracy obsession of most audiophiles:
"...
In the years since the Klipschorn's debut, loudspeaker technology has progressed in many ways. Speakers that sound timbrally neutral and uncolored are much more common today, as are speakers with consistent and effective dispersion across their operating range. Thanks to the pioneering work of people like Jon Dahlquist, Jim Thiel, Richard Vandersteen, and John Fuselier, physical time alignment of drivers in a dynamic loudspeaker system is virtually a given these days, and the problem of baffle edge diffraction has been identified and smacked upside the head. The result is a great selection of loudspeakers that offer apparently flat frequency response, superb stereo imaging, and great airiness and transparency.
And what did we give up to gain such easy access to all those things? Natural-sounding dynamics. Impact. Pluck. Snap. Body—especially body. And soul."
"...
In the years since the Klipschorn's debut, loudspeaker technology has progressed in many ways. Speakers that sound timbrally neutral and uncolored are much more common today, as are speakers with consistent and effective dispersion across their operating range. Thanks to the pioneering work of people like Jon Dahlquist, Jim Thiel, Richard Vandersteen, and John Fuselier, physical time alignment of drivers in a dynamic loudspeaker system is virtually a given these days, and the problem of baffle edge diffraction has been identified and smacked upside the head. The result is a great selection of loudspeakers that offer apparently flat frequency response, superb stereo imaging, and great airiness and transparency.
And what did we give up to gain such easy access to all those things? Natural-sounding dynamics. Impact. Pluck. Snap. Body—especially body. And soul."
I just replaced everything except speakers and cables. How I came to those decisions, the influences? For a long time I had planned on going a very different direction. Swissonor SET w/ tube phono stage, vintage Thorens, SPU. A visit to a friend who has a current mode analog system with MSL carts changed my mind. I’ve had a version of the vintage sound before. I love it but I suddenly knew I would be settling for far less than the potentials. The buzz in reviews of the SIT4 was telling me it would be a clear step up from my SIT3. And it is. I had it in place before I decided on the changes to the analog system. I use ai a lot. I began that conversation and for the most part it steered me to answers I was already aware of. But it also helped me clarify the differences within the context of my system and preferences. Then it said a name that I was not familiar with: Haniwa. It pushed Haniwa as my perfect solution. I did a deep dive online and came to the conclusion this was the correct choice. The Holbo fits it perfectly so that was an easy addition.
I credit friends, my own research of old reviews and ai with the success of my system upgrade which is now so far beyond what I expected that I don’t even know how to express it properly.
I credit friends, my own research of old reviews and ai with the success of my system upgrade which is now so far beyond what I expected that I don’t even know how to express it properly.
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Anyone can run a YouTube channel and make money.
Reviewers, whether YouTubers, online reviewers at webzines like myself at dagogo or enjoythemusic.com etc, or Stereophile or TAS, are not "Professionals"
There is no "professional body" to oversee any of us.
The US is a bit of an oddball here where they (the US) calls anyone who earns a living at something a Professional.
In Canada, Europe, Australia etc you are a Professional if you belong to a profession that has a body overseeing your qualifications. I am a professional teacher. If I do something unprofessional, my fellow teachers can report me. I will be called in front of the college of teachers and I could be dismissed. Not to mention all the practicum and course work I needed to do to prove my competence in teaching. This exceeds US standards.
Audio Reviewing? Meh. Someone likes you or the way you write and boom you are a reviewer. Or you decide to buy a mic and a camera and make YouTube videos. That's it.
It's like Recording Engineers. It sounds impressive but there is no engineering degree here. It is the same as custodial engineer. A fancy term for janitor.
Any putz can buy a mixing board and tweak a recording and call themselves a mastering engineer. The goodness of your abilities will be deemed good or bad by the market.
As to your initial question about what has the greatest impact. Well who knows.
Heavy Marketing and deep pockets and style probably made Bose and B&O.
Word of mouth arguably made Sugden.
Being well run helps. Sugden and smaller outfits know they're never going to get mass appeal but they can still be a very solid profitable company. They can weather some mistakes here and there.
Some try to get big too fast and cut corners or quality. Financial crises come in and they get underwater. Even seeming big outfits with great reviews like ARC were in financial troubles and had to sell.
Other companies may seem stable but may be propped up by the owner's deep pockets. One Audio Manufacturer told me they planned to buy a notable turntable company but saw their books and were shocked how poor off they had been for years. They got bought by someone else but not making money.
that same maker noted that a massive speaker company is 10s of millions in debt. But you would think they were doing well as they attend most every audio show, global, have headphones, etc. They're everywhere but they're underwater.
Reviews may have some influence, but I think generally with smaller more affordable products. And generally for smaller outfits. As Lee noted, the problem is dealer service. I recommended Pure Audio One integrated amp. It is a great sounding amp.
Another reviewer, Jack Roberts, and I both wanted it. The lead designer of Plinius left to form this new company. So it's not like there wasn't a solid track record. Unfortunately, he passed away. His partner wasn't an engineer so he closed the company. You now own a $10,000USD amplifier that is great but it is like owning a Saab in the middle of Saskatchewan. Good luck getting a part.
Putting my American capitalist hat on, the market will decide.
I am not a fan of Magnepan. But Magnepan is a success with people who like Magnepan. The fact is no matter how great or how bad you personally like a speaker or amplifier maker, the market will decide what is worth it.
The influence should be your ears. When I trusted reviewers at Stereophile, TAS, UHF, HiFi Choice etc I would up with worse sounding gear. They may like it but they're not me, or you.
What I found, as a listener to a wide array of music genres was that the weaker systems made different recordings sound similar or homogenized. Better systems with more resolution differentiated recordings more.
The problem is that audio shows don't necessarily put systems in even a remotely good light. Don't get me wrong some rooms sound great but it doesn't mean something sucks because a system stinks at a show.
I now try to make sure I audition a speaker in at least three different rooms (only one can be under show conditions) with different gear in each set up. I consider this a bare minimum before I make comments on gear. The exception is if it sounded really good. I'll talk about that but will also mention that I have only heard it once and so who knows how it will be in your room.
I then try and keep a rating system that is objective scoring and then one with my personal value system In place. So I may score speaker a 85/100 and speaker B an 82/100 but speaker B with my subjective preference in place may score a fair chunk higher. Speaker A may get higher marks on soundstage and imaging but speaker B has better tone and I place more value on that so for me it's the speaker I would buy. But a reader may value imaging and soundstage much more so they would like speaker A more.
It's a work in progress evaluation system. In the end though. We overthink this stuff. Just listen. If it grabs you it is probably doing something right. If it doesn't then all the babble and technobabble in the world isn't going to help.
FWIW ... Unless you already have a piece on hand it is not that easy to acquire a unit to compare with the review product. Perhaps a few reviewers have a stable of components to use for comparison but most don't. A manufacturer or distributor is typically unwilling to send out one of their components for the purpose of being the compared-to product.
The answer to this is for the reviewer to choose only review products that are in some way comparable to a component they already have. Comparable in topology (SS v SS), comparable in cost, version 1 vs version 2, etc. Although that itself is limiting.
I tend to ignore all that and just use what is in my system for comparison. I have yet to hear the concern you express.
In my expirience it works like this .
Customers have already more or less made up their mind as to what they want to buy when they enter a audio shop .
I think for a manufacturer an audioshow is the most important to create word of mouth / a buzz .
Customers will simply not buy unknown products , it takes years to create a buzz around a product.
An audio dealer told me " more speakers then customers " lol.
So afaic ill have to do shows , possibly New music in Brussels end of the year.
Customers have already more or less made up their mind as to what they want to buy when they enter a audio shop .
I think for a manufacturer an audioshow is the most important to create word of mouth / a buzz .
Customers will simply not buy unknown products , it takes years to create a buzz around a product.
An audio dealer told me " more speakers then customers " lol.
So afaic ill have to do shows , possibly New music in Brussels end of the year.
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That's because of the SPU. The 124 is musical but lacks some nuance, and SPU lacks nuance, so you are compounding the effect if you prefer a modern cart. The way around that is to add Dava on the 124 - two of us including the owner preferred the Dava basic on the TD 124 to Conituum calburn with the etsuro gold. That was the first time I got interested in Dava because I knew for a fact that the 124 had no business showing more detail and nuance, but here it was showing more detail and nuance, wider stage, better dynamics, and was generally more engaging. The Continuum got sold (coincidentally I still get to hear it in the new home with MSL and Schroeder LT).
I do like SPU but entirely different reason, for music where nuances matter less. SPU has great body and tone and is inexpensive
Hi Richard - not sure if you are suggesting there should be or you are just pointing this out. I've seen others post something similar in the past.
Please note my response this isn't aimed at you but at the concept I've seen others post negatively about how "anyone with an opinion can post a review". The answer is yes they can and they should always be able to. The minute you start trying to control this (look at what dCS did with their stupid legal endeavor and then they were caught lying about it), the minute we as audio enthusiasts will suffer for it.
If someone doesn't like how someone approaches talking about gear, then don't watch/read. I don't feel any better reading the "big name" reviewers when we all know how much they get paid to make the reviews or the compensated shills on this forum. It's not a secret in the industry.
Just my 100% personal opinion. Also as an example, I'm going to be making a video soon of the worst speakers I've ever had in my room. They cost $46K. I heard them 4 different times in different places and they were always very poor. As always I'm going to share what gear I had hooked up to it and what my personal thoughts were, AND that others should always make up their OWN mind.
The only opinions I really post any significance on are those of friends whom I share a similar sound taste with. Everyone else is merely entertainment. And I appreciate them taking the time to share / create their posts, vids, 'reviews' or whatever. The ones I know have a clear profit motive (some reviewers and the YouTubers who are dealers and 'reviewers' at the same time) I still watch, but just know what they are. It doesn't bother me.
Unfettered and open sharing of opinions is what I think makes this hobby so great. This of course is a 100% opinion based post.
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These “shills” on this forum that you refer to; do you have any first hand knowledge of the compensation that they receive?
Yes.
No one's compensation stays a secret. Everyone talks. I've actually seen the invoices some of them send as well.
Elliot G.
Dealer - Bending Wave
I agree that each person has the ability and the right to express their choices and their opinions . There is for better or worse no true voice of the quality of audio products. There are many voices with varying degrees of expertise, experience and the tools to do the complete job.Hi Richard - not sure if you are suggesting there should be or you are just pointing this out. I've seen others post something similar in the past.
Please note my response this isn't aimed at you but at the concept I've seen others post negatively about how "anyone with an opinion can post a review". The answer is yes they can and they should always be able to. The minute you start trying to control this (look at what dCS did with their stupid legal endeavor and then they were caught lying about it), the minute we as audio enthusiasts will suffer for it.
If someone doesn't like how someone approaches talking about gear, then don't watch/read. I don't feel any better reading the "big name" reviewers when we all know how much they get paid to make the reviews or the compensated shills on this forum. It's not a secret in the industry.
Just my 100% personal opinion. Also as an example, I'm going to be making a video soon of the worst speakers I've ever had in my room. They cost $46K. I heard them 4 different times in different places and they were always very poor. As always I'm going to share what gear I had hooked up to it and what my personal thoughts were, AND that others should always make up their OWN mind.
The only opinions I really post any significance on are those of friends whom I share a similar sound taste with. Everyone else is merely entertainment. And I appreciate them taking the time to share / create their posts, vids, 'reviews' or whatever. The ones I know have a clear profit motive (some reviewers and the YouTubers who are dealers and 'reviewers' at the same time) I still watch, but just know what they are. It doesn't bother me.
Unfettered and open sharing of opinions is what I think makes this hobby so great. This of course is a 100% opinion based post.
The number of variables is infinite and without any constants the conclusions are just an opinion.
There are a few that have a dedicated room. A few with some reference system however even within the industry, within a publication , they share virtually nothing.
This to me makes no sense but that’s my opinion.
If you don’t like what someone is cooking stay out of that kitchen.
That’s as good as it gets today , if you need information try to find someone that produces good sound and listen if they don’t then why would you listen to their opinion.
If I read a review of say a restaurant and I go there and it sucks why would I ever listen to that reviewer again?
so is this a fact?
or an opinion?If someone doesn't like how someone approaches talking about gear, then don't watch/read. I don't feel any better reading the "big name" reviewers when we all know how much they get paid to make the reviews or the compensated shills on this forum. It's not a secret in the industry.
Just my 100% personal opinion.
Unfettered and open sharing of opinions is what I think makes this hobby so great. This of course is a 100% opinion based post.
i get where we can connect dots between hifi media advertising and reviews which is not where i'm coming from and a separate subject. but then bringing that to members here allegedly shilling is a different animal.
you being a hifi media guy and all, this seems like pure unadulterated sour grapes. unless you actually have the facts.......not merely an opinion. and if you can't share those facts, why even go there? you had to know it would strike a nerve. unless you just want click bait for your blogs.
Wow Mike - that's rich coming from you of all people.
. No sour grapes here. But then I didn't have advance notice of Dartzeel going under to sell the gear before it became public like some people did.
If you are really playing the "unaware" card, next you'll be shocked to learn the earth isn't flat.
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