Sad news. MBL has filed for insolvency.

[Gunnar]

Of course the reason high-end is dying is digitally sourced systems don't warrant the high investment.

Not really sure I agree. Look at the prices of switches, streamers, Ethernet cables etc. And unfortunately they make a difference.

 

[Gunnar]

So lets look at that. If you could rent a pair of speakers lets say per month what would you be willing to pay for that. Just to be interesting lets say the speakers have a retail price of 100,000.
delivery and pick up?
I think this is an interesting point to discuss

I like the idea. Could be new products as well as second hands. But i guess directly from the manufakturer
I think it could be a down payment of say 15-20 % of the product value and then ?????
Just thinking….

 

[Elliot G.]

I like the idea. Could be new products as well as second hands. But i guess directly from the manufakturer
I think it could be a down payment of say 15-20 % of the product value and then ?????
Just thinking….

As a dealer/distributor I am not against the idea however it would have to make sense financially. Large products , speakers, etc. are not simple to pack, move deliver, unpack and do some set up.
I'm thinking of a weekly/monthly rental fee plus the delivery and pick up . I don't have an amount in mind but something like the cost of a boat or high end car rental would be equivalent.
I think something like a 100k speaker would rent for 2 percent a week plus, thoughts?

 

[puroagave]

Gee, my current two channel speakers are over 30 years old, Vandersteen 3A Signatures. Have been fantastic and are finally being replaced by the new Quatro CT Evos which will outlast me I am sure. The 3’s will eventually be shipped to another home we have.

Richard will tell you he's very Dutch, he owns his co's real estate, factory and equipment outright and doesn't believe in carrying debt. He prob can ride out the economic downturns better than most.

 

[TooCool4]

It’s a shame, but it’s not surprising.

Take a look at the average age of people that are interested in Hi-Fi, it’s getting up there in age and they are dying out. When you get young people that are interested in good quality because people like us, show them what is possible, then they ask about the price of the system. That is when things go down hill, then when you get the snobbery of some people, putting new comers or young people down about what they can or can’t afford. Are we surprised the industry is dying?

The industry needs to start putting great kit out at reasonable prices, we know they can, as some companies manage it. Before you start charging the high prices, they need to draw people in at the entry level and show them how good it is at that entry level. Once they are in show them benefit that you can then get even better when you can move up the line. If what new comers see is, I have to spend an arm and a leg just to get started and get reasonable sound, they will just turn around and walk away and stick to their mobile phones and earbuds.

When I have had friends children plus their friends come round, I have always assured them they don’t need to spend and arm and a leg to get good sound and I don’t laugh or poo poo what they have, as that is a sure way to put them off.

At Munich High End this year and most years, I saw and heard many products which I thought are over priced. Personally I think a lots to do with the manufacturers knowing what they can get away with, as some people will not buy something because they think it’s too cheap plus some people perceive expensive to be better.

I was talking to a European manufacturer and they said when they first started to move into the US market, they took their product over to a distributor to listen to. The distributor liked the products, and asked what will be the selling price. They gave the distributor the price, the distributor said I can’t sell it for that. The manufacturer thought oh, it’s must be too expensive, but no the distributor ask them to put up the price by at least another $10K.

The manufacturers / distributors are killing the golden goose that laid the golden eggs.

 

[keithc]

So lets look at that. If you could rent a pair of speakers lets say per month what would you be willing to pay for that. Just to be interesting lets say the speakers have a retail price of 100,000.
delivery and pick up?
I think this is an interesting point to discuss

Dunno. Depreciation plus profit. 8k a year pls insurance? 5k for 6 months? 2k for 45 days? Some sort of credit if sale at the end?

I’m reminded that I could rent a 350k-400k car for about 2k a day.

 

[Elliot G.]

Dunno. Depreciation plus profit. 8k a year pls insurance? 5k for 6 months? 2k for 45 days? Some sort of credit if sale at the end?

I’m reminded that I could rent a 350k-400k car for about 2k a day.

6 months is an eternity. 2k a day for a car is 64000 a month btw I would think I can rent a 100k speaker at approx. 8k a month plus ( delivery etc. set up would have to be extra depending on what's involved). I would also consider crediting some or all if the client purchased

 

[Rexp]

Dunno. Depreciation plus profit. 8k a year pls insurance? 5k for 6 months? 2k for 45 days? Some sort of credit if sale at the end?

I’m reminded that I could rent a 350k-400k car for about 2k a day.

I would say maybe 0.5% a day would be fair so 3.5K for 1 week for a 100K pair, would you pay that?

 

[Massimo66]

È un peccato, ma non è sorprendente.

Basta guardare l'età media delle persone interessate all'Hi-Fi: sta aumentando e sta scomparendo. Quando ci sono giovani interessati alla buona qualità, perché persone come noi mostrano loro cosa è possibile, poi chiedono il prezzo dell'impianto. È allora che le cose precipitano, e poi si manifesta lo snobismo di alcuni, che criticano i nuovi arrivati o i giovani su ciò che possono o non possono permettersi. Siamo sorpresi che il settore stia morendo?

L'industria deve iniziare a proporre ottimi prodotti a prezzi ragionevoli, e sappiamo che possono farlo, visto che alcune aziende ci riescono. Prima di iniziare a far pagare prezzi elevati, bisogna attirare le persone già a partire dal livello base e mostrare loro quanto sia valido. Una volta entrati, mostrare loro i vantaggi che si possono ottenere migliorando ulteriormente salendo di livello. Se i nuovi arrivati si rendono conto che devono spendere una fortuna solo per iniziare e ottenere un suono ragionevole, si limiteranno a cambiare idea e ad abbandonare il mercato, limitandosi a cellulari e auricolari.

Quando ho invitato i figli degli amici e i loro amici a casa, ho sempre assicurato loro che non avevano bisogno di spendere una fortuna per ottenere un buon suono e non ho mai riso né criticato quello che avevano, perché è un modo sicuro per scoraggiarli.

Al Munich High End, quest'anno e quasi tutti gli anni, ho visto e sentito molti prodotti che ho trovato troppo costosi. Personalmente, credo che dipenda molto dal fatto che i produttori sappiano cosa possono permettersi, perché alcune persone non comprano qualcosa perché lo ritengono troppo economico, mentre altri percepiscono il prezzo elevato come migliore.

Stavo parlando con un produttore europeo che mi ha detto che, quando hanno iniziato a entrare nel mercato statunitense, hanno portato il loro prodotto a un distributore per ascoltarlo. Al distributore è piaciuto il prodotto e ha chiesto quale sarebbe stato il prezzo di vendita. Hanno dato il prezzo al distributore, che ha risposto: "Non posso venderlo a quel prezzo". Il produttore ha pensato: "Oh, dev'essere troppo costoso", ma il distributore ha chiesto loro di aumentare il prezzo di almeno altri 10.000 dollari.

I produttori/distributori stanno uccidendo la gallina dalle uova d'oro.

Proprio ieri i miei amici che distribuiscono prodotti Hi-Fi tramite il marchio "Il Tempio Esoterico" mi hanno invitato alla presentazione di un marchio italiano di recente acquisizione, "Audiogram", che si propone di fornire apparecchiature di buona qualità a prezzi accessibili. Questo marchio produce sia elettroniche che diffusori acustici. Devo dire con tutta onestà che, trovandomi di fronte a un impianto dal costo di circa 20.000 euro tutto compreso, 7.000 euro per i diffusori acustici e circa 7.000 euro per pre e finale, accompagnato come sorgente da uno streamer LUMIN, prima di sedermi ad ascoltare ero piuttosto scettico sul risultato finale. A conti fatti, devo dire che il suono prodotto da questo impianto è stato assolutamente piacevole, musicale e molto godibile. Non fraintendetemi, è chiaro che se confrontato con un impianto ben tarato e dal costo decisamente superiore il paragone non avrebbe retto. Ciò che mi ha sorpreso è stata la qualità dimostrata da un sistema che però non si può definire propriamente economico o entry level, ma devo dire che anche senza spendere una fortuna, grazie all'impegno di alcuni costruttori appassionati e anche grazie ai miglioramenti tecnologici oggi con soli 20.000 € si possono ottenere risultati eccellenti. Fortunatamente per noi appassionati ci sono ancora costruttori che si prefiggono l'obiettivo di regalarci prestazioni musicali eccellenti senza proporre prezzi che spaventerebbero un giovane appassionato che volesse avvicinarsi al nostro magnifico hobby. Se dicessi a mio figlio quanto costa quello che ho nella mia sala d'ascolto, credo che mi farebbe rinchiudere in un ospedale psichiatrico accusandomi di malattia mentale e denuncerebbe i miei rivenditori di hi-fi per truffa a una persona incompetente.

 

[keithc]

I would say maybe 0.5% a day would be fair so 3.5K for 1 week for a 100K pair, would you pay that?

Hmmmm.

Brain: That's too much when factoring in depreciation, so too profitable for the owner. I'd want to see the breakdown for the transport/setup vs daily cost plus insurance.

Heart: Maybe. If I'm interested enough.

Remember, the goal is to sustain manufacturers to stay in business, not create an alternate form of price gouging.

 

[TooCool4]

Massimo66, even a €20K system is still a lot for new comers.

 

[microstrip]

Of course the reason high-end is dying is digitally sourced systems don't warrant the high investment.

Two points - why should we assume that high-end is dying when analysts simply say it is evolving, but with a positive financial trend? Curiously digital is responsible for most of the positive trends.

Apologies for not being pessimist and nostalgic, as it seems fashionable in WBF ... We never had any noticeable manufacturer company in audio in my country in the past, we now have two world known acoustic treatment companies (Vicoustic and Artnovion), as well as Inuos, the server developer/manufacturer. IMO excellent products are showing everywhere.

 

[Rexp]

Two points - why should we assume that high-end is dying when analysts simply say it is evolving, but with a positive financial trend? Curiously digital is responsible for most of the positive trends.

Apologies for not being pessimist and nostalgic, as it seems fashionable in WBF ... We never had any noticeable manufacturer company in audio in my country in the past, we now have two world known acoustic treatment companies (Vicoustic and Artnovion), as well as Inuos, the server developer/manufacturer. IMO excellent products are showing everywhere.

You're just enabling the demise of high-end.

 

[MarkusBarkus]

IMO excellent products are showing everywhere.

...as always: there will be winners *and* losers.

 

[PeterA]

yes; there are rarified air markets......but not very real world. pockets here and there east and west coasts mostly. ultra scarcity. extreme 1st world circumstances. away from that it's.......different.

the used car market is very healthy since COVID inflation. big gap between used and new car prices. whether leased or purchased. then there is the Government subsidized EV leases which are a reality unto themselves. your tax dollars at work. hope that goes completely away. let the marketplace find it's own level and not have law makers choose market winners.

selling expensive loudspeakers "used" has a double whammy.......big initial cost and then the size and logistics so lacks the relative ease of electronics transactions. so it's a totally buyers market.....gravity of the difficulty holding it back.

Mike, I’m just saying that the analogy is not very apt, houses cars and audio equipment. I think we agree that speakers are harder to sell than amplifiers.

 

[Lee]

MBL has been promoted quite heavily by the audio magazines. I am surprised they are in financial trouble. Or maybe the legacy audio press such as TAS and Stereophile doesn’t matter anymore.

Or maybe they would have failed sooner without the audio press?

 

[AudioLibertarian]

I am not sure what this means. The problem isn't that a company has one extremely expensive product per se.

I think it is a problem if a company's whole business model is to sell fewer and fewer, but more and more expensive, products to fewer and fewer elephants. How is such a business model sustainable?

Sadly, that model you have outline has been adopted by a rather large number of hi end companies.... You can't just double prices in a few short years and blame it all on the marginal price increases on "everything", which is total BS....

 

[treitz3]

OY VEY!

A not so good attempt at a complete thread deflection.

Tom

 

[AudioLibertarian]

It’s a shame, but it’s not surprising.

Take a look at the average age of people that are interested in Hi-Fi, it’s getting up there in age and they are dying out. When you get young people that are interested in good quality because people like us, show them what is possible, then they ask about the price of the system. That is when things go down hill, then when you get the snobbery of some people, putting new comers or young people down about what they can or can’t afford. Are we surprised the industry is dying?

The industry needs to start putting great kit out at reasonable prices, we know they can, as some companies manage it. Before you start charging the high prices, they need to draw people in at the entry level and show them how good it is at that entry level. Once they are in show them benefit that you can then get even better when you can move up the line. If what new comers see is, I have to spend an arm and a leg just to get started and get reasonable sound, they will just turn around and walk away and stick to their mobile phones and earbuds.

When I have had friends children plus their friends come round, I have always assured them they don’t need to spend and arm and a leg to get good sound and I don’t laugh or poo poo what they have, as that is a sure way to put them off.

At Munich High End this year and most years, I saw and heard many products which I thought are over priced. Personally I think a lots to do with the manufacturers knowing what they can get away with, as some people will not buy something because they think it’s too cheap plus some people perceive expensive to be better.

I was talking to a European manufacturer and they said when they first started to move into the US market, they took their product over to a distributor to listen to. The distributor liked the products, and asked what will be the selling price. They gave the distributor the price, the distributor said I can’t sell it for that. The manufacturer thought oh, it’s must be too expensive, but no the distributor ask them to put up the price by at least another $10K.

The manufacturers / distributors are killing the golden goose that laid the golden eggs.

That European manufacturer can always sell direct!

 

[XV-1]

I can't speak for everyone, but your comments, " inflated prices keep buyers away", is exactly what's preventing me from changing speakers. Every speaker I prefer over my current speakers are $80K or over $100K and I just can't do it. It's my value judgement and it has nothing to do with judging what some are willing to pay for speakers or any other audio components.

X1000

The replacement for my speakers have doubled in price. Crazy.
Something I cannot justify.

Apologists will crap on saying they are so much better, costs have gone up, blah blah blah.
Frankly there are diminishing sales due to the price increases, so it becomes a circular downward spiral to an ever decreasing customer base until there is no company.