You know you're an audio junkie when .................

[treitz3]

Hello and good afternoon to you, gentlemen. A series of posts have been deleted from this thread as a result of a certain member attempting to moderate the forum on their own. Please be aware that this is also against the WBF TOS. Please allow me to direct you to where it specifically covers this;

6. Please do not attempt to moderate the forum on your own. If you see objectionable posts, please report them. We will deal with them. Above all, focus on the topic being discussed, rather than the person discussing it.

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Tom

 

[PeterA]

Yes of course I forgot, in my opinion you cannot trust your ears!
What would engineers know compared to 'seasoned audiophiles ', I mean they only design and make the stuff!
Keith.

Expressing your opinion, how would you reconcile your statement with the fact that the engineers at Pass Labs (and others) describe themselves as audiophiles and openly discuss that they design by using both measurements and extensive listening tests to voice their amplifiers?

Furthermore, could you comment on the fact that, as a non engineer or technical person, I am left to use my ears to decide which individual components and systems I prefer? I suppose, alternatively, I could just follow the advice of reviewers and friends and not trust my own ears. I would consider this to be akin to "buying blind".

 

[thedudeabides]

Peter,

You do pose some challenging questions. Perhaps PA can explain how you should choose your speakers and other equipment without using your ears given the fact that, according to PA, you can't trust them?

Regarding Pass Labs, perhaps PA can explain why design engineers, at Pass and other companies, choose to listen to their products as part of the design process. But, and taking the above into account, if we can't trust the hearing capabilities of Pass staff, how do we reconcile this additional disconnect?

Furthermore regarding burn in, Nelson Pass recommends that his amps be turned on for about an hour before any serious listening. Knowing PA's position on burn in, that being that it doesn't exist, does PA know something that Nelson Pass doesn't know?

I look forward to PA's response to your questions and mine.

 

[esldude]

Expressing your opinion, how would you reconcile your statement with the fact that the engineers at Pass Labs (and others) describe themselves as audiophiles and openly discuss that they design by using both measurements and extensive listening tests to voice their amplifiers?

Furthermore, could you comment on the fact that, as a non engineer or technical person, I am left to use my ears to decide which individual components and systems I prefer? I suppose, alternatively, I could just follow the advice of reviewers and friends and not trust my own ears. I would consider this to be akin to "buying blind".

I don't see anything to reconcile there. Harmon engineers are likely interested in audio don't you think? The Harmon test would indicate engineers get different results in blind listening vs sighted. Pass designers (are Pass designs done by anyone other than Nelson Pass?) use measurements, and listening for voicing. Do they do blind listening for voicing? If not the Harmon video would suggest they might get different results if they did.

As for how to buy if you don't trust your ears, none of the info about listening bias indicates you instead listen to reviewers and friends. Those people are going to be subject to the bias of any other human. Some more, some less, all likely subject to it to some degree. One can look at other info than just sighted listening if one wishes. Make some rational decisions based on how things work. Or listen to those that do know if you don't.

The trick is who knows and who only thinks they know. Harmon takes one approach to minimize the effect of sighted bias. Others claim with experience that is not needed. I doubt the second group. If Harmon is wrong, and minimizing bias is unnecessary, you would expect the same results as the paragons of experience in the audio world who don't need to remove sighted information from their evaluation. Those experienced guys should get the same results sighted or blind. That is usually not what happens.

 

[JackD201]

Blind or sighted, all listening tests use ears.

 

[microstrip]

One of the interesting parts of the Sean Olive video, is where Harmon's own engineers were asked to perform the unsighted tests , they were certain before that as engineers they would be immun to expectation bias, yet their test results proved they were subject tot he phenomena just like anyone else!
The point is you cannot 'trust' your ears.
Keith.

Everyone has some sensitivity to bias expectation, but most of us consider that a choice taken under conditions that can create bias expectation is still a better option than relying on measurements of very limited value, opinions of dealers or blind uncontrolled conditions. Life is full of compromises.

BTW, if you read from other speaker designers you will see that their priorities are very different from those of the F. Toole school of though, that relies a in a certain number of well known assumptions on listener preferences. High-end is a real proof that we can trust our ears.

 

[esldude]

Everyone has some sensitivity to bias expectation, but most of us consider that a choice taken under conditions that can create bias expectation is still a better option than relying on measurements of very limited value, opinions of dealers or blind uncontrolled conditions. Life is full of compromises.

BTW, if you read from other speaker designers you will see that their priorities are very different from those of the F. Toole school of though, that relies a in a certain number of well known assumptions on listener preferences. High-end is a real proof that we can trust our ears.

Blind uncontrolled conditions is something of a straw man. Read it real quick and it might sound okay.

Toole's school of thought about what makes a good loudspeaker was informed by testing of listeners. Priorities of other speaker designers usually come from other ideas and experiences. One would be surprised if the two methods resulted in the same priorities.

High end is proof we can trust our ears.....or not. It is little more than saying by trusting our ears we prove we can trust our ears. Falls a little short by itself.

 

[microstrip]

Many manufacturers publish the measurements for their loudspeakers, if you learn to understand them they give you a pretty good idea of how a loudspeaker will sound.
Reviews based upon measurement and comparing against a known standard was the norm forty years ago.
Keith

WBF is still waiting for a promised set of full measurements of the Grimm Audio speakers. Can I ask you how you "learned to understand them"?

 

[microstrip]

Blind uncontrolled conditions is something of a straw man. Read it real quick and it might sound okay.

Toole's school of thought about what makes a good loudspeaker was informed by testing of listeners. Priorities of other speaker designers usually come from other ideas and experiences. One would be surprised if the two methods resulted in the same priorities.

High end is proof we can trust our ears.....or not. It is little more than saying by trusting our ears we prove we can trust our ears. Falls a little short by itself.

Again some one who does not know what are controls in blind tests. And loves straw man. Please see http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12056-What-is-he-saying&p=220732&viewfull=1#post220732, http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14975-Double-Blind-tests-*did*-show-amplifiers-to-sound-different&p=271523&viewfull=1#post271523 or any of the many posts of Jkenny on this subject. No need to re-do this debate.

BTW, high end is the statistical proof we can trust our ears. Not a logical one. We are dealing with perception and psychoacoustics.

 

[esldude]

Again some one who does not know what are controls in blind tests. And loves straw man. Please see http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?12056-What-is-he-saying&p=220732&viewfull=1#post220732, http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14975-Double-Blind-tests-*did*-show-amplifiers-to-sound-different&p=271523&viewfull=1#post271523 or any of the many posts of Jkenny on this subject. No need to re-do this debate.

BTW, high end is the statistical proof we can trust our ears. Not a logical one. We are dealing with perception and psychoacoustics.

Your idea of uncontrolled blind testing doesn't apply to Harmon. Nor to all such tests quite obviously. Nor am I one who doesn't know the difference.

Perception and psychoacoustics as far as it is known could very well predict the existence of high end audio. Though not for reasons that its existence gives statistical proof that you can trust your ears. Only for proof that many people would.

 

[Barry2013]

Keith.
I await your response to my most recent post in the Entreq thread

 

[thedudeabides]

allowing a component to reach it's optimum operating temperature is good practise ,
'burn in' is quite different.Keith

Not really if you think about it.

 

[PeterA]

I don't see anything to reconcile there. Harmon engineers are likely interested in audio don't you think? The Harmon test would indicate engineers get different results in blind listening vs sighted. Pass designers (are Pass designs done by anyone other than Nelson Pass?) use measurements, and listening for voicing. Do they do blind listening for voicing? If not the Harmon video would suggest they might get different results if they did.

As for how to buy if you don't trust your ears, none of the info about listening bias indicates you instead listen to reviewers and friends. Those people are going to be subject to the bias of any other human. Some more, some less, all likely subject to it to some degree. One can look at other info than just sighted listening if one wishes. Make some rational decisions based on how things work. Or listen to those that do know if you don't.

The trick is who knows and who only thinks they know. Harmon takes one approach to minimize the effect of sighted bias. Others claim with experience that is not needed. I doubt the second group. If Harmon is wrong, and minimizing bias is unnecessary, you would expect the same results as the paragons of experience in the audio world who don't need to remove sighted information from their evaluation. Those experienced guys should get the same results sighted or blind. That is usually not what happens.

Your response is not addressing my post. I am questioning Keith's assertion that he does not think one can trust his own ears. Whether one listens blindly or not, he is still listening with his ears. If they can not be trusted, does it matter if he sees what he is listening to? My question is for Keith and I did not ask about the Harmon test or the Harmon engineers. I am not familiar with that. You are free to answer for Keith, but I would like to see how he answers the questions I asked.

 

[thedudeabides]

- when you question your desire / need to post on a forum due to moderator policies.

 

[MrAcoustat]

Yes of course I forgot, in my opinion you cannot trust your ears!
What would engineers know compared to 'seasoned audiophiles ', I mean they only design and make the stuff!
Keith.

For ME i don't care how the amplifier measures , if it doesn't sound good to MY ears it will stay in the store plain and simple.