Wondering about Panel Comparisons

[Whatmore]

I am yet to hear the sanders speakers (there is only one dealer in Australia) but I do own one of his magtech amps. I can vouch for Roger's superb approach and excellent service. And if the amp is anything to go by, the speakers should be brilliant.

 

[DonH50]

I'm still debating and considering when I might go for a visit. My vague long-ago memory of Roger is of a sharp and very energetic guy, lot of fun to talk with. - Don

p.s. Reading up I recall one thing I do not like about the new 3.7's: they no longer have the bi-amp option. Having that external crossover box has always been a bit of a pain, but made it very easy to bi-amp my IIIa's. Hopefully the 20.7 retains that feature...

 

[Barry]

I never saw much benefit for going beyond the Magnepan 3.6s, tri-amping, with a sub in my moderate size room at the volumes I listen. The 20s didn't sound better. I wonder whether you really need a big panel. I don't think any of the new Mag models are bi-ampable. Sounds like you'll have a lot of fun making the choice though.

 

[DonH50]

Technically, no, I do not need the 20.7, but this is not about "need"... As I have said, in a decent-sized room there was little difference between the IIIa's and 20's way back then, except for the extra bass (barely noticeable on music), though in a large room the 20's were the winners. My current room is small (13' 3" x 17' 7") so the 3.7's would be fine, and my current subs seem to integrate well.

Dropping the ability to bi-amp would be a big downer for me. Financially, I'd be way ahead to refurb my IIIa's, and with one in college and another heading there, that's a likely scneario. However, I can listen to the new stuff and dream.

I have never tri-amped Maggies, though have bi-amped quite often. I have helped others do it, just have not done myself. How do you like it?

 

[mep]

I'm still debating and considering when I might go for a visit. My vague long-ago memory of Roger is of a sharp and very energetic guy, lot of fun to talk with. - Don

p.s. Reading up I recall one thing I do not like about the new 3.7's: they no longer have the bi-amp option. Having that external crossover box has always been a bit of a pain, but made it very easy to bi-amp my IIIa's. Hopefully the 20.7 retains that feature...

Don-my expectation bias prediction is the following:

If you go to Roger’s and hear his speakers, you will figure out a way to buy them because you will want to buy them.

 

[Barry]

I agree with you about the inability to bi-amp even if the new speakers are suppose to be better integrated with the newer XO. I honestly can't believe the new ones can sound better than mine - mine don't have much of a sonic signature at all! I'm bypassing the outboard passive XO completely and crossing over the subs at around 45Hz. This takes a big load off the bass panel and improves the clarity of it as well as providing the opportunity for bottom end impact with the sub. I like the sound of panel bass. At one time I had it crossed over much higher around 60 Hz.

 

[ack]

I'm surprised, but that is very good to know, thanks!

It could be that the coils have not fully settled in yet... Anyway, check out this ML modder who was encouraged by my own; on a'gon he just told me that even CLX owners engage in crossover mods. In the end, we all feel the results "catapulted" our MLs to well above Summit X territory. And our friend JonFo here has been using an external electronic crossover for years now. It feels we all think ML's with original crossovers are an unfinished half-___ job

 

[FrantzM]

I agree with you about the inability to bi-amp even if the new speakers are suppose to be better integrated with the newer XO. I honestly can't believe the new ones can sound better than mine - mine don't have much of a sonic signature at all! I'm bypassing the outboard passive XO completely and crossing over the subs at around 45Hz. This takes a big load off the bass panel and improves the clarity of it as well as providing the opportunity for bottom end impact with the sub. I like the sound of panel bass. At one time I had it crossed over much higher around 60 Hz.

Barry

And if that is OK with DOn , else we take it off-line. What Active crossover are you using in your system?

@Don

I have not heard the Sanders but have heard great things about them. I am however a Magnepan fan; I think upon audition that the 20.1 was without any doubt superior to the 3.6 in all apect of music. It was so much an ability to go lower but that of force when needed and delicacy when called for in the low register. Also there was an integration within the registers that was missing in the 3.6 when compared to the 20.1.
I have not, unfortunately heard the new Maggies... My bet would be on them, regardless (expectation bias full tilt here ) .. It does seem however that they still require stout amplifiers .. the 20.1 needed at least 300 watts/ch .. Reading the specs of the 20.7, it seems the same would be required even in your room ...

 

[DonH50]

Hey Frantz,

No problem about the crossover, I'd like to know too! In the past I started with a passive home brew, used an ARC for a while, then an active, then finally a combination active/passive design of my own. I am not bi-amping currently, though they were most of the previous life. Mark (mep) was kind enough to contribute a dbx crossover that I am using around 45 - 50 Hz to cross over to the sub, taking the LF load off the panels, but the Maggies themselves are not bi-amped. My preference is fixed crossovers, but my experience says I would have to get a variable unit and play around a bit before determining the final settings. The Maggies use a low-order, asymmetric crossover a little tricky to duplicate.

Having magnets on both sides of the panels always seemed like an excellent way to go to me, and that was the main technical difference between the 3.x and 20.x. If that is still true in the 20.7, that is the thing that most feel contributed to their (the 20.x's) ability to play better softer.

Power is not an issue -- I have a small room and 500 W/ch for the mains.

 

[FrantzM]

Don

I have always wondered how this would sound to multi-amp Maggies with the help of something like a DEQX or a TAcT unit. Would that be something you would consider? DeQX or TAcT seem to provide an amount of flexibility that not much else can replicate let alone surpass...

 

[Ron Party]

Steve, was it the 20.1s that the Grell man had on a temp basis when his Rockports were being upgraded? I'm thinking of the evening at his house with Morbius, Ken Stevens, you and me.

 

[DonH50]

@Frantz: I have looked at them but they are, like most of What's Best, out of my price range. If I were to bi-amp again, my choice would be a miniDSP unit for the initial trials, then I'd decide if I wanted to build or buy a "regular" crossover or just keep the miniDSP. The Behringer units are another possibility, though my experience with Behringer over the years has been less than positive (I know plenty use and love them and I have not heard their latest products so have no comment on their performance today). Another possibility is to pull the dbx unit I am using now, or get another, and use it to see how a regular L-R design would work. In the past, I attempted to match the factory xovr response, but found the optimal design for me to require some experimenting.

I know very little about TACT but I think it is similar to DEQX in that it also provides powerful room correction. If so, that is a strong incentive, as the back wave from dipole speakers makes them a little trickier to set up than conventional boxes, despite their reduced interaction with the first reflection points since they send the energy more "straight out" than conventional drivers. However, it is my personal opinion (not just because I used to do it for a living, as that was long ago) is that the biggest improvement most audiophiles could make to their system is improving the room response whether by treatment, SW correction (Audyssey, DEQX, whatever), or a combination.

 

[Barry]

Barry

And if that is OK with DOn , else we take it off-line. What Active crossover are you using in your system?

@Don

I have not heard the Sanders but have heard great things about them. I am however a Magnepan fan; I think upon audition that the 20.1 was without any doubt superior to the 3.6 in all apect of music. It was so much an ability to go lower but that of force when needed and delicacy when called for in the low register. Also there was an integration within the registers that was missing in the 3.6 when compared to the 20.1.
I have not, unfortunately heard the new Maggies... My bet would be on them, regardless (expectation bias full tilt here ) .. It does seem however that they still require stout amplifiers .. the 20.1 needed at least 300 watts/ch .. Reading the specs of the 20.7, it seems the same would be required even in your room ...

Pass Labs XVR-1-3way. Used to replace the 3.6s passive outboard and add a pair of Kinergetic 5 x 10" subwoofer towers. Soon will mod the internal passive tweeter / mid pass with Duelund Cast caps and inductors to take it to the final level. If bi-amping, folks might want to take a look at the Pass Labs/First Watt B4 that's due ou end of the month.

 

[JackD201]

Might have a dealer in your area Don.

http://www.ambienceusa.com/pages/Reference1600.htm

 

[DonH50]

Rats, nope... NY, OH, MI, NH, WI. I had no idea there were so many other panel makers around...

 

[Gregadd]

A pair of CLX on Audiogon http://app.audiogon.com/listings/443367

Given your choice of amps and price I'll put my vote in for the 3.7 Magnepan.

 

[LL21]

Hi all,

I am considering replacing my decades-old Magnepan MG-IIIa's. Here is my short list:

Magnepan 20.7 (~$13k - $14k)
Martin Logan Summit X (~$15k)
Sanders Model 10c ($13k)
Sound Labs Millennium-3PX ($13,270)

While I love my Maggies, to my ears and instruments big 'stats have always sounded a little cleaner, but in the primordial past I found their frequency response lacking a bit (and more artifacts around the low-end crossovers to their subs than Maggie in some cases), dynamics a bit more compressed, and a number of models had reliability problems. A number of them also presented rather nasty loads, especially up high. Magnepan has always seemed a tad more colored and some models in some positions exhibited discontinuities going from high to low as the drivers were changed (not as much as most reviews would lead one to believe, at least IME), but the combination of fairly easy drive, clean sound, and good dynamics has kept me with them since the mid-70's.

Now, given the list above, what say you? Any others I should consider?
- Don

I will say, i have never forgotten how good the Apogee Stages were, and can only imagine the Duettas or Divas or Grands. Now of course, you've got to find them...and be prepared for maintenance, i would think. That said, probably well below your budget, and perhaps you can ensure you can get them totally rehab'd? A thought which normally i would never consider...except that i really was impressed by the Apogees...and i think i recall seeing a pair listed for like 2K on AGon...if the site will ever come back up properly!

 

[DonH50]

@Gregadd: Interesting... I have a pair of good subs that would mate with those pretty well...

My real choices in amps I can no longer afford, thus my current choice...

I am still trying to see if my IIIa's really have an issue or not; something else seems to be going on but I have not had the time and energy to pull out the console and troubleshoot.

@lloyd: I have heard the Grands many times, the others less often, and all long ago. They sound great but are a bear to drive, and if I were to refurb old speakers I'd just do my current Maggies. Which I may! Also, for whatever reason I have always preferred the taller panels over the shorter ones, probably because of their directionality. The taller models just seem to fill the listening space better to me. Yah, subjective, so be it!

Thanks guys - Don

 

[LL21]

Actually it is still on AGon. includes the sub...mini-Grand.

 

[LL21]

Interesting... I have a pair of good subs that would mate with those pretty well...

My real choices in amps I can no longer afford, thus my current choice...

I am still trying to see if my IIIa's really have an issue or not; something else seems to be going on but I have not had the time and energy to pull out the console and troubleshoot.

Well, the good news i suppose is if they are really in great condition (as advertised) you'll have plenty of leftover from the speakers to put back to your amp. Good luck with the healthcheck on your existing equipment!