Windsor Hifi Show - simple systems ruled

[microstrip]

(...) Otherwise read reviews and take a punt in the used market, if someone owns your component and has "upgraded" from that based on music you listen to and attributes he has highlighted. And if you don't like it, take a punt in the used market again based on another reviewer since the first did not work

IMHO most of the time people lie about the true reasons when selling used equipment ...

 

[bonzo75]

IMHO most of the time people lie about the true reasons when selling used equipment ...

Not relevant. My point to buy and sell in used market was that you reduce your losses if reviewer's recommendation doesn't work. So if KK recommended AR, i buy AR used, don't like it, sell it, then move to say, Roy Gregory, and try out his recommendation. In the absence of demos and compares, buy and sell used is the best way, I think

 

[microstrip]

Not relevant. My point to buy and sell in used market was that you reduce your losses if reviewer's recommendation doesn't work. So if KK recommended AR, i buy AR used, don't like it, sell it, then move to say, Roy Gregory, and try out his recommendation. In the absence of demos and compares, buy and sell used is the best way, I think

Ok, I though it was more than that. Unfortunately I very seldom manage to find exactly what I want in the used market and people very rarely want what I do not want anymore.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Not relevant. My point to buy and sell in used market was that you reduce your losses if reviewer's recommendation doesn't work. So if KK recommended AR, i buy AR used, don't like it, sell it, then move to say, Roy Gregory, and try out his recommendation. In the absence of demos and compares, buy and sell used is the best way, I think

it depends on one's personal culture and goals. and I'm not saying there is any correct 'one way' to be.

some folks simply enjoy the search for gear and sampling of gear and are not obsessed with attaining an end point....and used gear does make this approach less painful.

others have a place in mind they are going and see the way to get to that spot.

or their plan is to switch back and forth between those viewpoints.

neither is an entirely a linear process, as preferences can and do get adjusted and 'end points' can be found in the chaos.

but when an end point is in view then long term 'big boy' decisions get made for new gear with long term justifications. with-in personal comfort zones hopefully. I think it is important to leave behind other's views at some point and find the place for yourself.

 

[microstrip]

it depends on one's personal culture and goals. and I'm not saying there is any correct 'one way' to be.

some folks simply enjoy the search for gear and sampling of gear and are not obsessed with attaining an end point....and used gear does make this approach less painful.

others have a place in mind they are going and see the way to get to that spot.

or their plan is to switch back and forth between those viewpoints.

neither is an entirely a linear process, as preferences can and do get adjusted and 'end points' can be found in the chaos.

but when an end point is in view then long term 'big boy' decisions get made for new gear with long term justifications. with-in personal comfort zones hopefully. I think it is important to leave behind other's views at some point and find the place for yourself.

Great post, Mike. I think that reading reviews and knowing reviewers helps a lot to define the 'end points'.

 

[bonzo75]

I would disagree it helps to know end points

 

[Al M.]

I would disagree it helps to know end points

Why not? I have saved myself a whole lot of searching, money and frustration by deciding early in my audiophile journey (25 years ago) that for me personally a lively, dynamic and dramatic presentation, combined with a reasonably believable tonality, is the most important thing.

I also value many other parameters (anything that provides more resemblance with unamplified live music, really), but not at the expense of, and distraction from, my highest priorities.

I understand if others have different priorities. High-End is a very personal thing.

 

[bonzo75]

Why not? I have saved myself a whole lot of searching, money and frustration by deciding early in my audiophile journey (25 years ago) that for me personally a lively, dynamic and dramatic presentation, combined with a reasonably believable tonality, is the most important thing.

I also value many other parameters (anything that provides more resemblance with unamplified live music, really), but not at the expense of my highest priorities.

I understand if others have different priorities. High-End is a very personal thing.

So you got your end points on those attributes from reading reviews?

 

[Al M.]

So you got your end points on those attributes from reading reviews?

No, from discovering what I personally value the most when it comes to music reproduction that engages me.

I admire when I hear certain things in other systems that mine cannot do, but I am not easily flustered into thinking that I must have all that as well, otherwise I can't be happy.

 

[bonzo75]

No, from discovering what I personally value the most when it comes to music reproduction that engages me.

I think micro was referring to a different point and I was replying to that

 

[Al M.]

I think micro was referring to a different point and I was replying to that

Perhaps he was referring to a different point, but I am not sure. I was more reacting to Mike L.'s post and my interpretation of it.

 

[bonzo75]

Perhaps. I was more reacting to Mike L.'s post and my interpretation of it.

Ok, so we were addressing different points

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I would disagree it helps to know end points

ok, let's substitute 'clear reference of performance' for 'end point'. my intention was to represent that a person has a clear idea of the sort of sound that they want to achieve. and they go about assembling a system to reach that reference.

I know plenty of people searching for a reference to pursue. and then maybe quite a bit fewer folks who know what reference that they want and have an idea of how to get it.

neither is right or wrong. but my opinion is that generally people go from 'searching for a reference' stage, to the pursuing a particular reference' stage......

but no doubt people's long term reference can change and a new direction sets them off again searching.....but more times than not what happened really in that case is that they originally bought into someone else's reference....it was never theirs to begin with.

and at a mature stage in one's audiophile walk, we can appreciate many approaches to the end point, while retaining confidence in our own direction.

 

[bonzo75]

Hi Mike, I was referring to micro's comment of using reviewers to define end points.

And yes, reference components should change, change can often mean progress

Later, going into tube

 

[Al M.]

ok, let's substitute 'clear reference of performance' for 'end point'. my intention was to represent that a person has a clear idea of the sort of sound that they want to achieve. and they go about assembling a system to reach that reference.

I know plenty of people searching for a reference to pursue. and then maybe quite a bit fewer folks who know what reference that they want and have an idea of how to get it.

Yes, that is what I was referring to.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Hi Mike, I was referring to micro's comment of using reviewers to define end points.

And yes, reference components should change, change can often mean progress

Later, going into tube

sorry....my bad. I jumped into the middle of a thread a bit out of context.

 

[microstrip]

So you got your end points on those attributes from reading reviews?

I can say I got many of them from what I have read. Although currently I have a much better direct contact with equipment, twenty years ago I learned a lot from good reviewers and could drive my system to points I had no direct experience with, but had read about.

Reading a few well carried reviews before approaching some new equipment is always a good investment in my opinion.

 

[morricab]

Probably your Voyd was faulty or had a poor bearing - a synthesized split phase power supply using three separate synchronous motors should create a noiseless and smooth drive.

It was smooth but not entirely noiseless. The Papst external rotor motors are not dead silent and you have three of them. It could be the bearing was a worn but it certainly didn't look like it. Speed stability was quite good but not at the level of the Yamaha.

 

[morricab]

Not relevant. My point to buy and sell in used market was that you reduce your losses if reviewer's recommendation doesn't work. So if KK recommended AR, i buy AR used, don't like it, sell it, then move to say, Roy Gregory, and try out his recommendation. In the absence of demos and compares, buy and sell used is the best way, I think

This is sort of a shotgun approach but I would not call it an intelligent one. If you know what the reviewer is regularly using for demo recordings and talks about in the reviews then you might have a good idea what sonic virtues (or vices) that reviewer values. If they listen to mostly death metal then it is quite possible that their ideal system and yours don't match up to well.

If KK never listens to classical or attends live, unamplified concerts, then what ever he likes for his home system is quite possibly barking up the wrong tree for me...maybe not but many times that would be the case. Some reviewers who I used to think had a good idea of what sounds like the "absolute sound" have changed their direction so completely that I now doubt their sincerity of the past as they look more and more like trend followers.

I listen to a lot of classical and Jazz...about 75% acoustic rather than electric Jazz. I also listen to Rock and electronic music and even include some of that in my reviews but my most critical listening is often with classical or live acoustic jazz recordings that are known to have good sound quality. I will throw in some 80s pop/rock and some recent electronic (Moby, Yello for example) or world (Dead Can Dance) type music as well. I also throw in a couple of my own recordings that I made of solo violin (24 Paganini Caprices) and Violin and Piano (Beethoven Kreutzer Sonata) many years ago with a single stereo pair of condenser microphones on a Teac R2R from the mid 1970s.

 

[morricab]

it depends on one's personal culture and goals. and I'm not saying there is any correct 'one way' to be.

some folks simply enjoy the search for gear and sampling of gear and are not obsessed with attaining an end point....and used gear does make this approach less painful.

others have a place in mind they are going and see the way to get to that spot.

or their plan is to switch back and forth between those viewpoints.

neither is an entirely a linear process, as preferences can and do get adjusted and 'end points' can be found in the chaos.

but when an end point is in view then long term 'big boy' decisions get made for new gear with long term justifications. with-in personal comfort zones hopefully. I think it is important to leave behind other's views at some point and find the place for yourself.

Good point. Some people are in it for journey rather than arriving at the end. I know a guy who is only that...he has hundreds of pieces moving through his hands over the years and swings regularly from tubes/high sensitivity to big SS/large inefficent speakers and everywhere inbetween. He doens't care about ultimate sound quality but I seriously think he is trying to sample everything that is available on the market within (and even a bit beyond) his budget.

Of course trying to reach an endpoint can look an awful lot like the first case if one doesn't have a clear idea on HOW to get to that endpoint and understands how the gear is likely to sound and interact etc. This ends up looking more like a drunken sailor walk to the end (that they never reach) rather than a linear progression.

I now have a relatively fixed system that delivers the goods for smaller ensembles and is close enough to what I hear live that I don't have a huge letdown coming home. I guess I am lucky though with venues here in Switzerland because the sound is usually very very good at concerts here. Especially at a couple of nearby Jazz clubs and of course the Tonhalle and Opernhaus. I have been dinking around with amps as that for me seems to be the hardest to really nail down but I think I am just about there. I can still satisfy the itch through reviewing and it allows me to benchmark if my system has fallen off the pace of the latest and greatest. I like to use my observational talents to help others decide what to audition (but not what to buy). I have a distinct perspective that adheres pretty closely to HPs original "absolute sound" criteria. That may seem old fashioned in the distinctly relativistic reviewing world we now live in but for me that has always been the goal and not just does it sound good to me.