Toward a Better WBF…

[PeterA]

I’m entitled to my opinion. And I do have some of the designers and builders of my equipment over from time to time but this is for me and not for anyone else. Sorry if that bothers you. I’m about pushing limits and exploring not about affirmation and acceptance.

it’s also about promoting gear. As we see the industry change and the demise of many brick and mortar stores, we see the rise of audio shows and home auditions. You often see clusters of people living in proximity of each other who have the same gear or similar gear from the same brands. Marketing has moved to social media and influencers. It’s not better or worse, it is just different. Things are changing and have been for quite a while. I understand your wish to remain private and I understand Mike wanting to share his system with his local audio group and people across the Internet.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron,

Why not the alternative formulation:

I have enormous respect for dCS' business model and engineering philosophy and technological prowess which results in exactly the sonic attributes many audiophiles are aiming for. I, personally, just don't happen to care for the resulting sonic attributes.

I completely agree with this alternative formulation.

 

[exupgh12]

Wilson, like most manufacturers, gets parts from 3rd parties. Some of these parts have gone up 4X according to Daryl.

I wonder how all this didn’t affect so many other industries that are not less dependent on 3rd party parts and materiel such as vehicles, electronics, and machinery.

i had argued with another’s speaker manufacturer regarding mater cost when he waved to me with that excuse, I just opened my smartphone and showed him that his speaker's material prices were long come back to pre “corona” prices, and so was goods delivery.

On the last two Munich shows I participated in several manufacturers and distributors meetings, i herd several times on those occasions that manufacturers were getting requests from distributors, mainly in the far East, for more expensive goods, as audio equipment had become a luxury to show the status of the owner.

 

[Al M.]

The examples I gave I’ve all heard and they are better than new current expensive advanced technology examples I’ve heard.

"The examples I gave I’ve all heard and they are better in my opinion than new current expensive advanced technology examples I’ve heard."

Here, fixed it for you.

Ron is right, you are conflating subjective personal opinion and preferences with objective fact.

 

[PeterA]

This post evidences how you continue to make the mistake of substituting your personal subjective preferences for objective fact. It implies as a matter of objective fact that new technologies and products don't sound better than the best technologies and products from the past. But this reflects nothing more than your personal subjective preference for what you personally consider to be the best technologies and products from the

Ron, I’m not claiming something as objective fact. You call it implication. When asked what is best, are you not asking someone for his opinion? I am sharing my opinion and asking questions. When Lee says new technology with new materials and better cabinets leads to better sound, that is an assumption based on opinion. When I and others ask why is it better, we are met with silence. If the answer is the cabinet is less resident, the follow up question is does it sound better? Again silence.

I am just throwing out some very specific examples of gear that I have heard that I think is the best in the class. This is the beginning of a discussion point. I asked for other examples of new technology that sounds better? I’m asking for opinions from others. I’m not getting any examples. I’m basically asking for those who claim the new stuff, the latest and the greatest, is better, to tell us what they mean by that statement and to prove it, or explain why they think so. Isn’t this a discussion forum?

 

[andromedaaudio]

as audio equipment had become luxury to show status of the owner.

Most of the audio industry these days is a bunch of nonsense .
It has almost nothing more to do with people who like music.

Its all about zirconium , graphene , carbon , carborundum balls , diamond gold / silver etc

 

[Carlos269]

Actually don’t flatter yourself. You don’t bother me. That what the ignore button is for. As to having people over I would go so far as saying that this is. Imo common place for everyone ( except you). I have held weekend events where well over 50 people have attended. I have one coming up in Q4 this year where members from all over the USA and internationally will be attending. You should try it. It’s part and parcel of the hobby. It’s not uncommon for members to bring their wives. It’s called being sociable.

For someone who has me on ignore you do seem to respond to me on a regular basis. Hit that ignore button again, please!

As far as having people over, it make sense for you to promote your Pitch Perfect Sound products. You are a dealer and salesman, enough said.

 

[Carlos269]

it’s also about promoting gear. As we see the industry change in the demise of brick and mortar stores, we see the rise of audio shows and home auditions. You often see clusters of people living in proximity of each other who have the same gear or similar gear from the same brands. Marketing has moved to social media and influencers. It’s not better or worse, it is just different. Things are changing and I spoke to have been for quite a while. I understand your wish to remain private and I understand Mike wanting to share his system with his local audio group.

Peter good point, I guess MikeL does consider himself an influencer and brand ambassador for his products. Look at how Steve Williams promotes his products here also. If you have financial interests at stake it makes perfect sense to promote products by having people over.

 

[Argonaut]

I’m sorry I wasn’t clear enough the first time for you to understand it so I had to repeat it.

Oh to be sure … I most certainly received the VAS. INC. promotional the first time around … repetition being quite superfluous.

 

[Argonaut]

I also repeated it because no one offered examples of the latest and greatest that sounds better than any of the examples I cited.

Perhaps you have simply worn us all out with your tiresome repetition of the Utah Mantra For Audio Nirvana…

 

[PeterA]

Now you are back to confusing your personal preferences with objective reality. Just because you think the Neumann DST is the best sounding cartridge does not mean other audiophiles think this. And if they prefer some other cartridge it does not make them objectively incorrect. It does in your eyes -- but that's the fallacy of your thinking.

The Neumann DST is my favorite cartridge. It is the best I’ve heard. I’m not saying that everyone is going to agree. But some are proclaiming technology marches forward and the ever escalating prices are justified by superior sonics.

I am not saying anything about correct or incorrect. I’m not saying any of this is objective. I’m just questioning the proclamations made supporting the hiend industry. I asked an open question but no one has bothered to answer. If someone prefers a cartridge to the Neumann, I accept that gladly and would welcome a discussion about why he thinks it’s better.

again I’m not saying they are incorrect in my eyes as you phrase it. You are putting all sorts of words in my mouth. I’m asking for defenders of the higher end to explain why these different technologies and different materials sound better not just different. I am saying they sound different and I prefer some specific examples from the past is sounding better to me.

when someone says they went to Munich and her Western electric speakers in a system and it was the best sound I’ve ever heard, it makes me wonder what advances the industry has made outside of the convenience

of digital.

Just out of curiosity why do you think not everybody who visits David purchases a complete Vintage Audio Specialties curated system? Are we all incorrect? Does none of us understand natural sound? Does none of us know what we hear in the concert hall?

Ron, people have different tastes and values. That is simple and obvious. I’ve never claimed that people are incorrect for not buying something David is selling. Lots of people go to live concerts and share their experiences. They are hearing natural sound. Of course they understand what they are hearing. Why would I ever criticized it Or claim they don’t understand it?Why are you making this stuff up and why are you fixated on this topic?

I have no idea how you would begin to put some statistically valid numbers to this numerator and the denominator of this question, so I feel like this post is more rhetorical than anything else.

You tell us -- of all audiophiles alive today who have heard Western Electric horns or Bionors and who think they are the best speakers they have ever heard, what fraction do they represent out of of all of the audiophiles alive today who have heard both Western Electric horns or Bionors and contemporary loudspeakers? What is that fraction?

I think you are simply projecting your personal preferences here, and the preferences of some of your friends.

It is not about statistically preferred. I have no idea who has heard both the latest greatest Wilson and Vianor or western electric In appropriate systems and rooms. The claim is that the most expensive latest and greatest newest technology sounds better. I’m saying not everyone agrees with that so what makes it better?

Ron, what makes the latest technology and new materials of the Wilson speakers better? What do you mean by better? Francisco says sounding more like the real thing is meaningless because stereo is so removed from the real thing. I think that is hogwash and everyone knows what real music sounds like an a legitimate goal in our hobby is to try to approach the sound of real instruments. That’s how I define better and it is a subjective opinion based on my own experience and listening abilities for me.

 

[PeterA]

"The examples I gave I’ve all heard and they are better in my opinion than new current expensive advanced technology examples I’ve heard."

Here, fixed it for you.

Ron is right, you are conflating subjective personal opinion and preferences with objective fact.

everything I say Al is in my opinion I guess I should add the qualification for every post. Thank you for doing so for me.

I guess people don’t want to take up the challenge of answering my question. Do you think it’s because they haven’t heard anything better than the examples I gave, or they don’t want to share their opinions? Why do you think there are no responses? Lee and others are claiming the latest and greatest sounds the best. Do you just accept that? You recently wrote you prefer your DAC to ones costing 5 to 10 times more. I suspect you’re talking about sound quality.

 

[Steve Williams]

For someone who has me on ignore you do seem to respond to me on a regular basis. Hit that ignore button again, please!

As far as having people over, it make sense for you to promote your Pitch Perfect Sound products. You are a dealer and salesman, enough said.

Ive never once done that Carlos.No need as the product sells itself. However I did a global soft launch for the new Lampi Horizon last year with well over 40 attendees. In Q4 Im hopefully doing a soft launch at my house for the new Taiko Extreme with BPS and so far have close to 50 RSVP's from all over the world. You should really try to get out more Carlos and interact with people . You might learn a few things about being cordial and social. As for the Ignore button rest assured you're on it. You just however showed up on. a thread I read and took a swipe at MikeL for being a mensch and sharing his system with others whereas you see it as an attention getting device. It's good to have friends Carlos. It gets you out from behind your little screen where you feel it is ok to hurl insults at Mike and others as you so often do. FWIW, I don't have any desire to respond to you on a regular basis but when you said what you did about Mike, I felt a response was indicated. I also love the way you tend to flip an argument and bring things back to you. Try being nice to people Carlos. It might give you a fuzzy feeling of friendship because to me this is an integral part of this hobby

 

[PeterA]

Perhaps you have simply worn us all out with your tiresome repetition of the Utah Mantra For Audio Nirvana…

You have the honor and distinction of being the first member I put on the ignore list. If you do the same for me, WBF will become a better place.

 

[Argonaut]

do you have the honor and distinction of being the first member I put on the ignore list. If you do the same for me WBF will become a better place.

Attention seeking as always …. Yawn

 

[Ron Resnick]

This has nothing to do with vintage audio specialties.

So it is mere coincidence that each of the components you cited are components sold by Vintage Audio Specialties?

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, what makes the latest technology and new materials of the Wilson speakers better?

I have no idea. I don't think in terms of objectively or factually better. I don't post in terms of objectively or factually better.

Virtually everything I write explicitly is in terms of my own personal subjective preferences. I would never pretend that in this subjective hobby the components I prefer are objectively or factually more consonant with live music than other components.

 

[rando]

As to having people over I would go so far as saying that this is. Imo common place for everyone ( except you). I have held weekend events where well over 50 people have attended. I have one coming up in Q4 this year where members from all over the USA and internationally will be attending. You should try it. It’s part and parcel of the hobby. It’s not uncommon for members to bring their wives. It’s called being sociable.

Spending all day, every day, immersed. As opposed to privately hammering out a few moments of active rest.

I don't seek embargo on Carlos over his choices in leisure involving personal privacy away from the outside world. Throttling over the edge of being content is at least a sign of pushing the envelope in this hobby. There are worse outlets than brusquely confronting social ease with inadequacies at observed interim.

Communally, chance of the next salvo in this thread freshening a wound is considerably more likely than lighting upon a fresh avenue of healthy pursuit. Perhaps the garden path to be lead down here would be suggesting setting down mastering of known variables in favor of... given an excess of burbling over wisdom. Racing improves the breed while tuning only improves the amount of lubricants sold.

 

[adyc]

Peter good point, I guess MikeL does consider himself an influencer and brand ambassador for his products. Look at how Steve Williams promotes his products here also. If you have financial interests at stake it makes perfect sense to promote products by having people over.

Ive never once done that Carlos.No need as the product sells itself. However I did a global soft launch for the new Lampi Horizon last year with well over 40 attendees. In Q4 Im hopefully doing a soft launch at my house for the new Taiko Extreme with BPS and so far have close to 50 RSVP's from all over the world. You should really try to get out more Carlos and interact with people . You might learn a few things about being cordial and social. As for the Ignore button rest assured you're on it. You just however showed up on. a thread I read and took a swipe at MikeL for being a mensch and sharing his system with others whereas you see it as an attention getting device. It's good to have friends Carlos. It gets you out from behind your little screen where you feel it is ok to hurl insults at Mike and others as you so often do. FWIW, I don't have any desire to respond to you on a regular basis but when you said what you did about Mike, I felt a response was indicated. I also love the way you tend to flip an argument and bring things back to you. Try being nice to people Carlos. It might give you a fuzzy feeling of friendship because to me this is an integral part of this hobby

Now I am afraid to share my incoming new speaker in WBF. I am afraid to be accused of promoting the brand. I am afraid to be asked to justify the purchase as this speaker is brand new and not vintage. Sorry. This place is not a friendly place.

 

[microstrip]

(...) Francisco says sounding more like the real thing is meaningless because stereo is so removed from the real thing. I think that is hogwash and everyone knows what real music sounds like an a legitimate goal in our hobby is to try to approach the sound of real instruments.

Peter,

If you want to refer to my opinions, please quote in context or do it properly.

That’s how I define better and it is a subjective opinion based on my own experience and listening abilities for me.

Exactly - something that is based on your experience (including your audiophile education) and listening abilities in your usual surroundings with your usual music. For me this is not the better, it is simply the preferred. When people talk about best and the better it is usually for a significant group of people.