The future of Krell

[asiufy]

I think you are getting caught up in the Watts war far too much. All amps are not created like your FBP 600. There are amps available with low rating that will drive difficult loads much easier than some well know products with crazy ratings. The MBL amps rated at around 440wpc drive 111f's and 101e's much easier than some 600 and 1200 watters. My Momentum's at 300wpc handled the pair of 11f's I owned much better than the McIntosh 1.2k's they replaced. Now the just laugh at the Alexandria's.

I have heard a pair of Accuphase A-65's tame Focal Utopia speakers better than some bigger amps.

Jim

I've had one of those Krell KBP beasties here, and I'd much, MUCH rather have my paltry 160W darTZeel 108.
We're not buying transformers or capacitors here. Or metal by the kilo. We're buying SOUND. And the KBP is not even close to the 108 in that aspect.


alexandre

 

[dallasjustice]

It all depends on the speakers and the rest of the system. It's tough to compare amps in isolation. I can tell you that I am very experienced when it comes to amps. It's a false choice to say you must choose between music and power. That's not true, IME. Yes, the Dartzeel is very musical with the right speakers. But, with the wrong speakers, the Dartzeel is NOT musical. I know, because I used to own a CTH-8550. I've heard the Krell 402e on my speakers and its pretty magical. I've not heard it in my room, so there's some risk involved. That's life. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I think I've figured out a way to make a run at the 600e. I will post later, if and when it happens.

I've had one of those Krell KBP beasties here, and I'd much, MUCH rather have my paltry 160W darTZeel 108.
We're not buying transformers or capacitors here. Or metal by the kilo. We're buying SOUND. And the KBP is not even close to the 108 in that aspect.


alexandre

 

[MCLSOUND]

well if he made those little dartz of 100/ch into mono's and double the orig. $18,000 price,you would have a pair of mono's for $36,000 that peaked out 320w at 8 and 450w at 4ohm...
WAIT
he did even better and made a pair of 450w mono's for $150,000
at least you will have a little something special and swiss!

 

[asiufy]

It all depends on the speakers and the rest of the system. It's tough to compare amps in isolation. I can tell you that I am very experienced when it comes to amps. It's a false choice to say you must choose between music and power. That's not true, IME. Yes, the Dartzeel is very musical with the right speakers. But, with the wrong speakers, the Dartzeel is NOT musical. I know, because I used to own a CTH-8550. I've heard the Krell 402e on my speakers and its pretty magical. I've not heard it in my room, so there's some risk involved. That's life. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I think I've figured out a way to make a run at the 600e. I will post later, if and when it happens.

But of course it depends on what the said amp will drive. I didn't say more power is not better. I said that shopping/choosing on power alone is not the way to go.
The CTH runs circles around the 402e. I know, I had both side-by-side, on Sonus faber Amatis. It is fairly good, though, considerably better than the older Krells. And depending on your speakers, might be the most cost effective amp, instead of going monoblocks (600/900).

I'm curious what speakers you thought the CTH was not musical, btw...

You can use 2 NHB-108s, though not as mono amps. That's what I plan to do

alexandre

 

[dallasjustice]

I am going to try the 600e mono, not the 402e.

I had the CTH-8550 on my YG Anat III and it lost it's lifelike presentation. The CTH-8550 was great on the YG Carmel though. I think it's the lower impedance dips that will expose the Dartzeel amps. If the speakers stay into higher impedances, then the Dartzeels are great.

But of course it depends on what the said amp will drive. I didn't say more power is not better. I said that shopping/choosing on power alone is not the way to go.
The CTH runs circles around the 402e. I know, I had both side-by-side, on Sonus faber Amatis. It is fairly good, though, considerably better than the older Krells. And depending on your speakers, might be the most cost effective amp, instead of going monoblocks (600/900).

I'm curious what speakers you thought the CTH was not musical, btw...

You can use 2 NHB-108s, though not as mono amps. That's what I plan to do

alexandre

 

[still-one]

Hi Jim
I know the difference. There is no difference in a 2KV worth of transformer.I understand your hi-end dollars worth of amps,but lets focus on the subject of the 710 and the 600e mono's.The 600e will fill the room,that is a fact.The 900e will just be more headroom(and I would figure they are not much more horse power than the FPB 750mcx) and doubt the sonics would change much.
Mcintosh 1.2K's are just glorified stereo reciver sounding amps designed for people who want to colour their sound.
Yes,well I am sure Dans new amps are a great retirement funds kitty.$$...But I am sure they sound fine.

MBLhas 1.6kv/mono=3.2KV total...I am sure with all the capacitance and output devices that they will kick.

I am not talking about a original 600 or 600c but I had the 700cx also and there was not that much difference at al in power output...no difference really.
It is true that I cannot dable in these huge priced amps but I was never a Wilson/Focal fan anyways.They are not my cup of tea.

I still stand by my statement that you cannot just assume that the Krell will fill the room better than the Soulution 710 just based on it output. I don't disagree that the differences between the two Krell amps is little more than headroom which in the room noted is large but not cavernous.

I would lean towards the 710's in my set-up but then my speakers do not require lots of power.

As to your other comments,
Wilson's in general are not my "cup of tea" either. I had no interest in the older Watt Puppy's, the Sasha's or Maxx 3's. They did nothing for me. I prefer a large soundstage which IMO only comes with larger speakers. To get an improvement over my 111f's I had narrowed by search to the Alexandria's, the Sonus Faber Aida and the MBL 101e II's. I decided on the Wilson's due to pricing, availability, and the ability to fine tune them to my room.

By the way you lose some credibility when you make comments about McIntosh as glorious receivers. You may not like them but that is only your opinion.
Jim

 

[dallasjustice]

I don't disagree that the differences between the two Krell amps is little more than headroom which in the room noted is large but not cavernous.
Jim

Jim,
You are correct, my room is not an enormous room. However, room size alone is not enough to know how much power is useful in a room. I have done much work on acoustics in my room which includes using a microphone to get detailed measurements and using an acoustician as well. My room is not over-damped but my decay time is slightly under .4. In a room with much longer decay time, one doesn't need as much power to "fill the room up", for lack of a better phrase.

Much of this stuff depends on listening taste. For example, if I only listened to large symphonic music, then I would prefer a room with longer decay time. In that case, I might be okay with the Soulution's power. The Soulution is a very powerful 2 channel amp. In fact, it's the most powerful 2 channel amp I've had by a large margin.

 

[asiufy]

I am going to try the 600e mono, not the 402e.

I had the CTH-8550 on my YG Anat III and it lost it's lifelike presentation. The CTH-8550 was great on the YG Carmel though. I think it's the lower impedance dips that will expose the Dartzeel amps. If the speakers stay into higher impedances, then the Dartzeels are great.

There's something seriously wrong with that YG and its interaction with the darTZeel. Perhaps impedance dips might be the culprit.
I tested my 108 with one of those, with active bass. As soon as we cranked the volume a bit, and a fast transient came, the 108 blew its fuses. It was too much for it. I've never had it happen before, or ever since. Only with that particular speaker.
The dealer then plugged the ASR Emitter II, and it played just fine. Not nearly as good as the 108, but good. And that's a 500W monster.
This is all just proof there's not a single "recipe". In order to get that glorious SQ, something had to be sacrificed on the darTZeel. And that precludes the use of speakers like the YG Anat. In my case, I'd just drop the YG and keep the darTZeels, though...


alexandre

 

[dallasjustice]

Alexandre,
There's nothing wrong with the YGs. Most experienced folks know that you build a system around speaker/room. One should never build a system around an amp, IMO.

There's something seriously wrong with that YG and its interaction with the darTZeel. Perhaps impedance dips might be the culprit.
I tested my 108 with one of those, with active bass. As soon as we cranked the volume a bit, and a fast transient came, the 108 blew its fuses. It was too much for it. I've never had it happen before, or ever since. Only with that particular speaker.
The dealer then plugged the ASR Emitter II, and it played just fine. Not nearly as good as the 108, but good. And that's a 500W monster.
This is all just proof there's not a single "recipe". In order to get that glorious SQ, something had to be sacrificed on the darTZeel. And that precludes the use of speakers like the YG Anat. In my case, I'd just drop the YG and keep the darTZeels, though...


alexandre

 

[dallasjustice]

Alexandre,
If you look at the review of the YG anat III by David Robinson on Positive Feedback, he had the same thing happen with his Dartzeel. The fix is easy though. If you crack open your Dartzeel and reset it on the 4 ohm tap, it will have no trouble driving the YG Anat III. The four ohm tap will make the model one much less powerful though. I think you only get like 40watts into 8, but no blow-ups.

 

[dcc]

YG is testing their loudspeakers with Krell gear. I guess you already talked to them.

One other amp you might consider is the Evolution One. It has been recently discontinued by Krell. This amp is reasonably powerful (450 W) but it plays in a different league. I had the chance to compare the Evo 900 and the Evolution One and there was a clear winner. I ended up acquiring them:

 

[mep]

Is it just me or the picture, but does that meter look cheap?

 

[LL21]

YG is testing their loudspeakers with Krell gear. I guess you already talked to them.

One other amp you might consider is the Evolution One. It has been recently discontinued by Krell. This amp is reasonably powerful (450 W) but it plays in a different league. I had the chance to compare the Evo 900 and the Evolution One and there was a clear winner. I ended up acquiring them:

Beautiful. I have heard these in a system and room I know reasonably well. Congrats. DallasJ - there are also the Krell MRA's!

 

[dallasjustice]

YG is testing their loudspeakers with Krell gear. I guess you already talked to them.

One other amp you might consider is the Evolution One. It has been recently discontinued by Krell. This amp is reasonably powerful (450 W) but it plays in a different league. I had the chance to compare the Evo 900 and the Evolution One and there was a clear winner. I ended up acquiring them:

That's correct. I've been to the factory and listened in their system with Dick and Scotty Warren. YG doesn't endorse any particular amplifier though. I know the YG works well with a lot of different amps. For example, I had the ASR and it was alot of fun. I had to let it go though because of some reliability issues and it was a little too tube sounding to my taste.

That's a nice shot of the Evolution One. I don't think it's available anymore. I am told they discontinued it because the "e" upgrade to the 900 outperformed it. I know you have your own experience, so I won't dispute that though. It looks beautiful to me.

 

[asiufy]

Alexandre,
There's nothing wrong with the YGs. Most experienced folks know that you build a system around speaker/room. One should never build a system around an amp, IMO.

Yes, I guess I'm not experienced enough
In my opinion, one should ALWAYS build a system around the pieces that are unique, and that provide the result intended.
Your rule is, IMO, useless. But again, as I said, I guess I'm just not experienced enough. Or maybe I just know what I like, and I found it.

Another person, local here, also attempted to hook up the YG to his 108. We brought the switch to 4 ohms. It didn't blew up immediately, but it eventually blew a fuse as well, as he listens loud. Again, this is the only speaker that has this effect on the 108, AFAIK. Even the Sashas, which are tough loads, will not do this.


alexandre

 

[still-one]

Alexandre,
There's nothing wrong with the YGs. Most experienced folks know that you build a system around speaker/room. One should never build a system around an amp, IMO.

I agree. Find the speaker you believe will achieve what you are looking for in your room, find the amp(s) that get the most out of it, tweak it with cables and room treatments.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

I agree. Find the speaker you believe will achieve what you are looking for in your room, find the amp(s) that get the most out of it, tweak it with cables and room treatments.

i agree with that approach. speakers come first, and they should be able to load the specific room.

for me; i would add to that that i won't consider a speaker that cannot 'work properly' with modest power in a medium to large room. not that more power might not help; but that modest power is sufficient. it helps if that speaker has integrated 'active' bass, as then that modest power gets you more ultimate full range performance....but that's only a preference, not an essential.

'modest power' to me means around 100-200 soild state watts and around 30-50 tube watts. most amps i like are more modestly powered.

 

[NorthStar]

So Mike, I just read your above post; does the sensitivity of a speaker have any consideration?
...And its average impedance too.

 

[mep]

i agree with that approach. speakers come first, and they should be able to load the specific room.

for me; i would add to that that i won't consider a speaker that cannot 'work properly' with modest power in a medium to large room. not that more power might not help; but that modest power is sufficient. it helps if that speaker has integrated 'active' bass, as then that modest power gets you more ultimate full range performance....but that's only a preference, not an essential.

'modest power' to me means around 100-200 soild state watts and around 30-50 tube watts. most amps i like are more modestly powered.

Mike-I don't buy the old wife's tale that tubes sound 2x as powerful as a SS amp. If you need 100-200 watts of SS power, I think you need the same tube power. My speakers are over 90dB efficient supposedly and they do have a built in 14" sub with its own 1800 watt amp. They didn't come to life (primarily in the bass) until I powered them with 250 watts of SS power. 100 watts of tube power either through a Jadis Defy 7 MKII or an ARC VT-100 MKII or an ARC VS-115 didn't cut it.

 

[microstrip]

Is it just me or the picture, but does that meter look cheap?

No Mep, it is because it is difficult to take a good photo of it - it does not look cheap. A good friend owns a pair with the matching preamplifier and I can assure you they look expensive when seen in reality. May be too expensive ...