Tech Das Air Force One....auditionedThe very long thread against the cream of decks

[jtinn]

Jonathan, Did you own the SME 30 or the SME 30/12 with V-12 arm? I know a gentleman who currently owns both and he has described them as sounding quite different. How would you describe the sound of the SME that you used to own? Thanks.

I had the SME 30/2 with the V and IV arms. I liked the compact nature of the table and enjoyed my time with it, but no matter what I did, there was always a bloatiness to the sound. I hear it with all of the SME arms.

I am a firm believer in a proper direct drive implementation. I have listened carefully to most of the elite tables out there and while quite enjoyable, they just do not compare.

 

[garylkoh]

Did you hear the Air Force One in my room at CES?

You should have come to say Hi, and I would have played you anything you wanted, instead of having to form an opinion of a turntable listening to a fraction of one track in an unfamiliar system.

 

[Steve Williams]

I have listened carefully to most of the elite tables out there and while quite enjoyable, they just do not compare.

compare to what

 

[jtinn]

compare to what

A properly executed direct drive table.

 

[jtinn]

Did you hear the Air Force One in my room at CES?

You should have come to say Hi, and I would have played you anything you wanted, instead of having to form an opinion of a turntable listening to a fraction of one track in an unfamiliar system.

That was one of the times. You were actually in a deep discussion with someone and I did not want to interrupt.

 

[rockitman]

A properly executed direct drive table.

So it's back to the DD versus belt debate. How does one deal with motor noise on the bearing from DD ? I can't see how a DD could ever be as quiet as a well executed belt.

 

[MylesBAstor]

So it's back to the DD versus belt debate. How does one deal with motor noise on the bearing from DD ? I can't see how a DD could ever be as quiet as a well executed belt.

I think once you key in on it, belts have a very distinctive sound.

Christian, did you think the Rockport tt sounded noisy? The Dobbin/Beat doesn't sound noisy to me.

 

[XV-1]

A properly executed direct drive table.

have to mostly agree.

My Exclusive P3 is better in most ways to my TW Acustik AC-3 table, especially in bass drive, control, speed and quietness.

Albert Porter prefers Technics SP-10mk3 to the much more expensive Wave Kinetics turntable that he used to own

Still, would love to hear the Tech Das AFI, as the Micro Seiki 5000's and 8000's do sound superb.

Even VPI are coming out with a DD table that will be their top of range.

 

[rockitman]

I think once you key in on it, belts have a very distinctive sound.

Christian, did you think the Rockport tt sounded noisy? The Dobbin/Beat doesn't sound noisy to me.

I haven't heard them, yet I always hear DD are supposed to be the best. I think it's more a matter of taste. That said I hear there is a new belt drive out that may be the best table yet....the subject of this thread...

 

[MylesBAstor]

I think the take home message is that one can't be too dogmatic about the choice of drive system (belt, rim, magnetic, DD, idler) any more (though there still could be a debate between AC vs DC). There are so many variables that go into the design of a turntable and I'd opine that it's the designer's properly balancing these parameters that is most important.

 

[JackD201]

I think the take home message is that one can't be too dogmatic about the choice of drive system (belt, rim, magnetic, DD, idler) any more (though there still could be a debate between AC vs DC). There are so many variables that go into the design of a turntable and I'd opine that it's the designer's properly balancing these parameters that is most important.

I fully agree.

 

[jtinn]

So it's back to the DD versus belt debate. How does one deal with motor noise on the bearing from DD ? I can't see how a DD could ever be as quiet as a well executed belt.

Hence my statement of "A properly executed direct drive table". We are not talking about $200 Japanese direct drive tables.

 

[rockitman]

How does one execute a DD table as quiet as a top line belt when the bearing itself is part of the motor ?

 

[garylkoh]

I think the take home message is that one can't be too dogmatic about the choice of drive system (belt, rim, magnetic, DD, idler) any more (though there still could be a debate between AC vs DC). There are so many variables that go into the design of a turntable and I'd opine that it's the designer's properly balancing these parameters that is most important.

Absolutely! It is the end result that counts - not the choice of drive system.

Nishikawa-san has over 50 years of experience in high-end audio, IMHO he has done the work in properly balancing between perfection and paralysis. Over dinner, he ticked off on his fingers the products he was the CHIEF designer of, and just on analog bits and pieces, he ran out of fingers. One stuck to my mind, and that was the Infinity Black Widow - so I'm eagerly anticipating his matching tonearm.

One thing that the design shared with the Vertere Reference Tonearm that I used together in CES this year, they were both cost-no-object exercises to see how much can be done in producing the absolute best. Nishikawa-san is developing a "junior" version of the Air Force One that will incorporate everything he learned in designing the Air Force One, but at a lower price-point. Touraj is also doing the same thing with the tonearm.

I wonder how Touraj's tonearm is going to stack up against Nishikawa's tonearm

That will make for an interesting shootout.... but considering that both are friends, I'm going to have to wear a fire-proof suit.

 

[MylesBAstor]

How does one execute a DD table as quiet as a top line belt when the bearing itself is part of the motor ?

"With its air-suspension isolation stand, air-bearing platter (both the axial and radial loads are supported by air), captured air-bearing arm, and direct-drive brushless motor, the System III Sirius's only mechanical contact is that of stylus and record. No belt, no springs, no thrust plate and ball bearing, no bushings—and, unfortunately, no way most of us will ever be able to afford the thing." Fremer/Stereophile

I know the DD motor going to be used in the new top-of-the-line VPI Vanquish comes out of the US Navy submarine service where quietness is of the utmost importance Motor alone for the new table is around $4000.

 

[Peter Breuninger]

 

[Dre_J]

I know the DD motor going to be used in the new top-of-the-line VPI Vanquish comes out of the US Navy submarine service where quietness is of the utmost importance Motor alone for the new table is around $4000.

Miles, do you know what that motor was used for in the Navy application?

 

[mep]

I want to know that too. I can't think of a submarine application that would use a motor that small in a noise-critical application.

 

[PeterA]

I had the SME 30/2 with the V and IV arms. I liked the compact nature of the table and enjoyed my time with it, but no matter what I did, there was always a bloatiness to the sound. I hear it with all of the SME arms.

I am a firm believer in a proper direct drive implementation. I have listened carefully to most of the elite tables out there and while quite enjoyable, they just do not compare.

Thanks Jonathan. I've often heard this description of SME from others, but I and also those who have heard my SME based system have never described my system that way. Is your observation that all SME arms sound bloated based on those SME arms on SME tables only or did you audition the SME arms on other tables as well? And did you ever try other arms on your SME 30/2 table? I'm curious if you can conclude from you experience with SME that an SME arm on your NVS table or a Durand Telos arm on an SME 30/12 would also sound bloated. Your response seems to describe the SME arms, but then you praise the proper implementation of direct drive which is a turntable, not arm, issue. Perhaps you could clarify the arm/table distinction. Thanks.

 

[MylesBAstor]

I want to know that too. I can't think of a submarine application that would use a motor that small in a noise-critical application.

The "technology" used in the design of the VPI motor was derived from military use.

Remember all those days after "Star Wars" was eliminated and military contractors scrambled to find civilian uses for their technologies? Same machining technologies later lead the the improved machining, say in turntable bearings and platters and air bearing arm tolerances.