Tech Das Air Force One....auditionedThe very long thread against the cream of decks

paskinn

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Jan 28, 2013
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The long thread speculating about the Tech das really whetted my appetite; now I have had the chance of a thorough listen against some other world class decks. I'l try to give a brief outline of the findings.
Four of us listened for a long day; the decks where the Air Force One, fitted with HRS base, vacuum and Durand 12inch arm. The cartridges were two matched Koetsu blue lace stone bodied units with diamond Cantilevers. The rest of the equipment was at the top end, capable of showing what was going on, easily.
let me say that this is not a 'review' so much as an account of what we heard and felt, listening in a relaxed manner.
The decks we compared with the AF1 were a top level Continuum , an SME 30-12, and a year 2000, Rockport Sirius 111.
First off; all four decks were very fine. In that sense there was no obvious 'loser' or a deck which under performed. They seemed to fall naturally into two groups, the Rockport and the three others. Frankly, the Rockport sounded the most 'different' in an unexpected way. It had less obvious presence, a more relaxed presentation, compared to the others. All four of us felt it was the most 'invisible' of the decks, the one which least interfered with the business of playing music. We all loved it, although those seeking a more 'hi fi' form of presentation might have been less impressed. At this level, personal taste is all.Given that the Rockport is no longer made, and given that its cost would hughly exceed that of the other decks, it simply served as an interesting contrast, and an indication of what could be achieved.
The other three decks sounded reasonably similar, although the differences mattered. The best was the Continuum, which sounded rich, with a markedly powerful bass and an overall smoothness.very seductive. The Tech das, even with the Durand 12inch, was a bit more upbeat and analytic. Lots of detail, a fast pace, good focus and a pleasing silence between notes. This deck would most please those who welcome a more upbeat sound with a slight emphasis on detail.No doubt a graham arm would sound different. The deck sounded quieter with the vacuum in operation. The build quality was fully up to the mark, although we would have preferred a smaller footprint....the AF1 needs a huge table! Overall, I think it fair to say that there was broad agreement that the air Force 1 is a top rank deck, but we also felt it was a 'work in progress' which might benefit from further development. But be in no doubt, this is a fine piece of work.
I own an SME 30-12 so didn't take part in the evaluation of this unit, because of possible bias. The other three thought it extremely good, but very slightly lacking in ultimate refinement compared with the others. Given that it cost about a third of the AF 1 (in the UK) it was felt to have done very well indeed . It was no 'also ran'....all these decks are stars, which one suits will depend on personal taste and budget.
While auditioning we made notes, but avoided remarking on the performance of the decks. But when we compared notes, there was a surprising degree of agreement. If we had to give scores, it would have gone something along the lines of ; Rockport: 10, Continuum: 8.5, AF1: 8, SME: 7.5. These are 'tough' scores because personal taste will vary so much. We would not claim they are in any way 'definitive'. But they are the result of careful listening using seriously high-end equipment. No doubt others, with different tastes, using different cartidges and so, might have felt differently. As I said at the start, there are no winners or losers.
Well, that's an honest account, the best we can do.
NB: One obvious point....three of these decks were designed as complete entities, with arms built specially to match the decks. Only the AF1 does not come with a purpose designed arm, built by the manufacturer of the deck. How much this matters is unclear to me.
 
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paskinn

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Jan 28, 2013
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To be honest I don't know which model of Durand it was, I don't know much about them. but I will find out, i'm pretty sure it will be the more expensive model, knowing the chap who owns this stuff...he likes the best. But I will check.
The Rockport was an original Sirius Three from the year 2000. The 2012 model I mentioned in an earlier post was not used (they weigh over 800 lbs so hauling them from house to house would be a bit of a chore.) All four decks were owned by our host, a charming man who is fortunate to be able to have what he likes, including several listening rooms.
 

PeterA

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That must have been a fascinating day. What a treat, and it seems incredible that one lucky guy owns all of those tables for such comparisons. Am I right to assume that you heard the Koetsu Blue Lace on all four tables? I think the Durand arm would have been the Telos. I don't think he has designed a 12" Talea. The tables do all share integral suspension systems. Yes, it's hard to think of the SME 30/12 as being the least expensive table in such a comparison, but the others are quite expensive deck to be sure. Thanks for the report.
 

puroagave

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paskinn, any pics you can share of the setups? having shot out different table/arm set-ups at the same time i can attest to how difficult it is to come to any conclusions. there are so many variables at hand and when you compare - as you did - three of the best decks in the world it would seem very difficlut to grade them as you did.
 

mep

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Since this guy can obviously afford anything, I wonder if there is a reason why he doesn't have the NVA table?
 

Mike Lavigne

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To be honest I don't know which model of Durand it was, I don't know much about them. but I will find out, i'm pretty sure it will be the more expensive model, knowing the chap who owns this stuff...he likes the best. But I will check.
The Rockport was an original Sirius Three from the year 2000. The 2012 model I mentioned in an earlier post was not used (they weigh over 800 lbs so hauling them from house to house would be a bit of a chore.) All four decks were owned by our host, a charming man who is fortunate to be able to have what he likes, including several listening rooms.

the Durand is the Telos. the Telos is the only 12" Durand model. i own 2 of them.

the Sirius III might have been my old one as it was new in 2000.......what is interesting is that i had a Telos protype in my room next to my old Sirius III a few times. so i know how they compare.

since we are on the subject of the host's gear, i'll take this opportunity to confess that i miss-interpreted things told me previously by the host. when paskinn posted earlier about both the 2012 model 'super-Rockports' and the hosts systems i had disagreed and thought that the super-Rockport was more just hot-rodded and that the host's system was somewhat modest. i've since again spoken to this gentleman and i was wrong. the mods to the super-Rockport are more a re-design and quite a ways better that what i thought. these 2012 super Rockports are likely a whole new level of tt. and his system is way more involved and over-the-top than my original understanding was. i think he was simply being modest when he originally spoke to me. my apologies to paskinn.
 

andromedaaudio

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Great read , a big thumps up for the rockport design.
One more example that most of the nicest hifi in existence originated around the year 2000 in my opinion
 

paskinn

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Jan 28, 2013
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I didn't bother with pics, not least because they were all 'standard' decks, with pics all over the place. And, shamefully, I don't actually know how we post a pic on this (or any other) forum .But I am going to work that out and will get pics next time I go round. I did post on this forum about the radical 2012 Rockport. The owner of that (who was one of the four listeners) is arranging for those pics appear on a UK site ''Hi Fi Wigwam'', along with more details. That's because we all live in the UK. As you made the request, if you send me a private message with your E-mail address, i'l post those pics as an attachment to you. I know how to do that. If worried about internet security, access Wigwam for the pics. If you then wish to post them here, fine. That is the most complex and femarkable deck ever made....there can never be another.
Anyway, back to the subject. I agree with you that these comparisons are difficult, and that different people may well get different results. And even if we all 'hear' the same thing, our value judgements on the outcome could still be quite different. I stressed that in my opening remarks. There can never be a 'winner' in that sense. However, we were surprised at how much we did agree, because that isn't always the case. As for scores, again, it's not maths, you can allocate quite different scores. It was just a shorthand way of showing how close the three current decks were in performance...at least to us. But, once again, other people will probably have other outcomes. And two of the people have bought, or are going to buy, the Tech Das for their collections, so it was obviously enjoyed quite a lot. I don't have anything like that kind of money. But I'm happy to get the chance to hear such stuff. The remarkable thing, is that between them, two of the guys own four Rockports, two Continuums, Several Walkers...and about 20 other decks. As for the Wave Kinetic.....is it reliable? We've heard of problems with the speed control. Anyway, even very wealthy folk don't buy everything (do they). I'm sure anyone who has the means and enthusiasm to buy any of these decks will be thrilled. All are just fabulous . I'l stay content with my SME, for me that was the most expensive bit of audio I have ever bought. Glad I did. I justify it by driving a used Toyota. And finally, in the end it is just a hobby, no-one gets hurt, we have fun. All the variety of opinions is part of that. Ultimately, no one is 'right' or 'wrong'.
 

paskinn

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Jan 28, 2013
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the Durand is the Telos. the Telos is the only 12" Durand model. i own 2 of them.

the Sirius III might have been my old one as it was new in 2000.......what is interesting is that i had a Telos protype in my room next to my old Sirius III a few times. so i know how they compare.

since we are on the subject of the host's gear, i'll take this opportunity to confess that i miss-interpreted things told me previously by the host. when paskinn posted earlier about both the 2012 model 'super-Rockports' and the hosts systems i had disagreed and thought that the super-Rockport was more just hot-rodded and that the host's system was somewhat modest. i've since again spoken to this gentleman and i was wrong. the mods to the super-Rockport are more a re-design and quite a ways better that what i thought. these 2012 super Rockports are likely a whole new level of tt. and his system is way more involved and over-the-top than my original understanding was. i think he was simply being modest when he originally spoke to me. my apologies to paskinn.

Sir, you are a true gent (as we say in the UK). Not that there was any need for an apology as none of us thought you had anything but the very best intentions. In fact Mik (the owner of Rockport 2012) just telephoned to say what a nice man you are!
 

vinylphilemag

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That's because we all live in the UK. As you made the request, if you send me a private message with your E-mail address, i'l post those pics as an attachment to you. I know how to do that. If worried about internet security, access Wigwam for the pics. If you then wish to post them here, fine. That is the most complex and femarkable deck ever made....there can never be another.

PM sent.
 

paskinn

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Jan 28, 2013
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Yes, that's it, pictured last week at Mik's house. The colour has a metallic flek in it, which isn't caught here. He has two black Rockports, so the vivid colour is a bit of fun. This machine is all new, has the Tim Sheridan motor and speed control unit, which was apparently modelled from work Tim Sheridan did for the NASA Mars probe. It is a strange tale, as Mik had to co-ordinate the whole project, involving technicians from various parts of the US. If poor Tim had not died last year, I suspect there might have been a few decks at least, if Andy Payor could be persuaded. He had his fingers burnt so badly with the finances of the decks in the past. Now there can be no more. The invoiced cost, just for parts and technical advice, was just awesome. I think Andy Payor made losses on all his great machines in the 1990s, there was no trade margins, and impossibly high parts and construction costs. It was all a brave and probably foolish dream. A complete money pit. Which is why no commercially viable deck will perhaps reach the height of the Rockport....you'd ruin yourself. But I'm glad people were so unwise...because they made something unique....and the 2012 machine is the maddest of the lot.

Sounds quite nice though..and a fitting tribute to Tim Sheridans last ever project.
 

PeterA

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Yes, that's it, pictured last week at Mik's house. The colour has a metallic flek in it, which isn't caught here. He has two black Rockports, so the vivid colour is a bit of fun. This machine is all new, has the Tim Sheridan motor and speed control unit, which was apparently modelled from work Tim Sheridan did for the NASA Mars probe. It is a strange tale, as Mik had to co-ordinate the whole project, involving technicians from various parts of the US. If poor Tim had not died last year, I suspect there might have been a few decks at least, if Andy Payor could be persuaded. He had his fingers burnt so badly with the finances of the decks in the past. Now there can be no more. The invoiced cost, just for parts and technical advice, was just awesome. I think Andy Payor made losses on all his great machines in the 1990s, there was no trade margins, and impossibly high parts and construction costs. It was all a brave and probably foolish dream. A complete money pit. Which is why no commercially viable deck will perhaps reach the height of the Rockport....you'd ruin yourself. But I'm glad people were so unwise...because they made something unique....and the 2012 machine is the maddest of the lot.

Sounds quite nice though..and a fitting tribute to Tim Sheridans last ever project.

Massive construction, direct-drive, air-isolation suspension, linear tracking tone arm. It must just sound incredible. Stuff that dreams are made of. Thank you Paskinn for sharing. My only question is which cartridge does Mik prefer in this table?
 

b3344

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Jan 16, 2013
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just want to say when i want to compare something . i will use same condition . if we want to compare table it need to use same tone arm and cartridge and cable in the same room same system to get true result . thank for you description but need to know more about test condition , all 4 table is in the same room ?
 

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jtinn

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paskinn: Your conclusions really do not surprise me. The Rockport was the only direct drive table. I thought pretty much the same with my comparisons. I did not listen to the TechDas anywhere but at shows and did not think it was up to the other tables mentioned. I used to own the SME and am very familiar with it as well.

Thanks for sharing your experience.
 

rockitman

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just want to say when i want to compare something . i will use same condition . if we want to compare table it need to use same tone arm and cartridge and cable in the same room same system to get true result . thank for you description but need to know more about test condition , all 4 table is in the same room ?

Ridiculous in a sick way...this turntable quandary...
Beyond the Gang Nam Pale....:cool:
 

PeterA

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paskinn: Your conclusions really do not surprise me. The Rockport was the only direct drive table. I thought pretty much the same with my comparisons. I did not listen to the TechDas anywhere but at shows and did not think it was up to the other tables mentioned. I used to own the SME and am very familiar with it as well.

Thanks for sharing your experience.

Jonathan, Did you own the SME 30 or the SME 30/12 with V-12 arm? I know a gentleman who currently owns both and he has described them as sounding quite different. How would you describe the sound of the SME that you used to own? Thanks.
 

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