TAS review Berning 211/845 amplifier

[bonzo75]

What speakers did Peter hear them on?

 

[853guy]

I have been saying this for a while. Flea watting needs to stop unless you have horns, and also having big speakers in average rooms

Well... Yes and no.

8 watts (and less) can be pretty incredible on the right (non-horn) speaker if it has a benign impedance curve and phase angles, you sit in the relative near-field, you don’t need 20kHz to 20Hz linearity, you don’t expect big dynamic swings, you listen at moderate SPL, and have diet of music that’s not exclusively Mahler, Wagner and Bill Laswell. In other words, 8 watts or less can be awesome if your expectations are tempered by reality rather than modulated by some sort of Platonic idealism.

Having said that, with Ron having already chosen his speakers, the realities surrounding an all-out effort come with more heightened stakes, and the caveats associated with them become more firmly established. But in any case, it all comes down to expectations relative to preference, and none of us are free from compromises of the financial, domestic and ultimate sound quality variety - we all have to work within the boundaries we inhabit, and tempered expectations are first and foremost the arbiter of how successful we can be within them.

P.S. Did you ever get to Spiritland in the end?

 

[Blue58]

Ron, by hook or by crook you need to hear the NAT Magma NEWs w yr speakers
I was speaking to Peter the other day, he's heard them, and they stopped him in his tracks
They're conservatively rated at 170W, but sound much louder
Peter tells me they have unique grip but the tone of subtlety of the most textured and delicate SETs

Not the only big ones out there but only 30w output.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Of course that is up to you, Ron. In my view it not only the amount of watts that really matter but in particular the quality of those watts.

Yes, but, to me, merely "driving" speakers is one thing, and ease of reproduction and the absence of hardening or clipping or dynamic compression is something else. On the one hand I do believe in the high headroom philosophy. That is why I have had 750 watt (in tetrode) mono-blocks for 18 years.

On the other hand I would never say it is not valid to prefer the unique sonic qualities of SETs over other sonic attributes achieved by the high headroom philosophy.

 

[bonzo75]

Well... Yes and no.

8 watts (and less) can be pretty incredible on the right (non-horn) speaker if it has a benign impedance curve and phase angles, you sit in the relative near-field, you don’t need 20kHz to 20Hz linearity, you don’t expect big dynamic swings, you listen at moderate SPL, and have diet of music that’s not exclusively Mahler, Wagner and Bill Laswell. In other words, 8 watts or less can be awesome if your expectations are tempered by reality rather than modulated by some sort of Platonic idealism.

Having said that, with Ron having already chosen his speakers, the realities surrounding an all-out effort come with more heightened stakes, and the caveats associated with them become more firmly established. But in any case, it all comes down to expectations relative to preference, and none of us are free from compromises of the financial, domestic and ultimate sound quality variety - we all have to work within the boundaries we inhabit, and tempered expectations are first and foremost the arbiter of how successful we can be within them.

P.S. Did you ever get to Spiritland in the end?

If we are tempered by reality there are many compromises we can make - the what's best discussion stops, and what is pragmatic for me takes over, that is a different discussion. Tenor 75 OTL are then out on heat alone, who wants to sweat while enjoying music. I am judging purely on all out sonic assault

Because spiritland is so close, I keep procrastinating since I can go anytime.

 

[Audiocrack]

Dear audiocrack,

I appreciate the suggestion. I liked the Kaguras very much!

1) I personally could not justify spending that much money for 50w SET when other SETs (Absolare, NAT) are available for a fraction of the price, and

2) The Pendragons are only 89dB efficiency, and I just cannot imagine driving 83 or 84dB speakers with 50w. There has to be some dynamic compression going on, I would suspect. I do believe in the high headroom concept, but that is less important for the simple vocals and acoustic accompaniment I listen to mostly.

Of course everyone is entitled to his own opinion, preferences, etc. But the loudspeakers I listened to in Paris are 83db (just checked it) and were placed in an old beautiful room in a 17th century building with very high ceilings (I have got a height of 3,5m in my room but this room in Paris is clearly higher than 4m), very wide (6,8m) and pretty deep (somewhat more than 5m if I remember correctly). We nearly only played classical pieces including some (big) symphony pieces (on tape as well digital replay).

I heard no dynamic compression whatsoever. On the contrary: the sound was very dynamic.

Btw, the owner informed me that the Kondo G-1000 brings the best out of the Kondo Gagura's amps; in his view a big difference to his former M-1000 mk ii. I could not compare this two Kondo preamps in this system.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Hi Ron

I would add Kronzilla DX2s to your list of candidates. 100wpc parallel SE and only takes 1V to get them to full output. Lovely midrange. If you're staying with VTL and want the headroom the Siggie 2s are great in different ways in Triode and Tetrode mode. I like Triode, Jim likes Tetrode. We do agree that they are at their best with yummy NOS AT7s and BH7s in front of the bank of power tubes. Our fave combo are Tele AT7s with RCA BH7s. Fortunately these tube types are relatively affordable.

PS - How are my apostrophes?

I give you an A+ on your use of apostrophes!

I appreciate the KR suggestion. But I think the consensus is that comparable power SET NAT Audio amplifiers are a bit warmer in the midrange (if not as neutral and transparent and dynamic overall) and that would be my personal preference.

I have heard the VTL Siegfried IIs several times and I think they are fantastic but I don't know if they are sufficiently different from my 750s in the midrange to justify the upgrade cost. And on the Pendragon ribbon towers I would not value the better low frequency extension and control and the better high frequency extension of the Sig IIs over the 750s.

I have not switched my 750s into tetrode mode since I switched them into triode mode 18 years ago.

 

[bonzo75]

To be fair, if NAT works KR will also work (and vice versa), and I doubt one will reject another on midrange. I don't think anyone here has compared NAT Magmas to Kronzillas to make that judgement. So you could try either to see if it works, and if it does, then you could compare to the other.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Lampi => Tenor 75 OTL => horns - apparently the Tenors have a great inbuilt volume control.

Just need to confirm they will work on the horns. But then all my components will be dream components interacting well together, simple, and relatively low cost.

Well i see you are narrowing in on choices , it seems the system is coming together .
Must be the most thought out purchases in hifi i ve seen to date .
I read on your site you are an investment banker , well if you buy your stocks this way i have no doubt you re succesfull at it.
Only caveat i would make is playing without a preamp , it might be better to insert a pre , but if the tenor does it with volume control amp only , that would be great .
If i needed no more then 8 watts on my speakers , i " might " still have the zanden 7000 (300 B)

 

[KeithR]

ok, i'll say it since no one else is saying it.

buy a speaker that works with the room you have and the amps you like. period.

if your speaker anticipated choice is not compatible, then consider alternatives.

once you have new 4 tower monsters, your time for choice has sailed.

50 watts is a square peg, 89db is a round hole. you don't buy uber speakers to under power them. ease and authority is half the joy of speakers like that.

+1. Right on, as usual Mike.

 

[microstrip]

(...) 2) The Pendragons are only 89dB efficiency, and I just cannot imagine driving 83 or 84dB speakers with 50w. There has to be some dynamic compression going on, I would suspect. I do believe in the high headroom concept, but that is less important for the simple vocals and acoustic accompaniment I listen to mostly.

The Pendragons are a line source speaker, the 89 dB efficiency is meaningless unless we know how it was measured or what is exactly meant with it. The usual xx dB with 2.83V at 1m assumes a point source in anechoic conditions.

 

[KeithR]

I give you an A+ on your use of apostrophes!

I appreciate the KR suggestion. But I think the consensus is that comparable power SET NAT Audio amplifiers are a bit warmer in the midrange (if not as neutral and transparent and dynamic overall) and that would be my personal preference.

I have heard the VTL Siegfried IIs several times and I think they are fantastic but I don't know if they are sufficiently different from my 750s in the midrange to justify the upgrade cost. And on the Pendragon ribbon towers I would not value the better low frequency extension and control and the better high frequency extension of the Sig IIs over the 750s.

I have not switched my 750s into tetrode mode since I switched them into triode mode 18 years ago.

I know Brian Berdan/Luke Manley will come over personally, drop a pair off, and let you decide. At this level, I would consider it mandatory.

 

[bonzo75]

Well i see you are narrowing in on choices , it seems the system is coming together .
Must be the most thought out purchases in hifi i ve seen to date .
I read on your site you are an investment banker , well if you buy your stocks this way i have no doubt you re succesfull at it.
Only caveat i would make is playing without a preamp , it might be better to insert a pre , but if the tenor does it with volume control amp only , that would be great .
If i needed no more then 8 watts on my speakers , i " might " still have the zanden 7000 (300 B)

I am not not adding a preamp, I can always compare preamps on the Tenor, and maybe high end ones like the Ypsilon will sound better. But at least it will not be an immediate spend.

The other choice is obviously class A amps into Apogee. But then I will have to run a bit of a merry go round on amps and fuss about the room.

I don't trade anymore, just manage regulatory projects.

 

[KeithR]

To be fair, if NAT works KR will also work (and vice versa), and I doubt one will reject another on midrange. I don't think anyone here has compared NAT Magmas to Kronzillas to make that judgement. So you could try either to see if it works, and if it does, then you could compare to the other.

Nat doesn't have a US distributor, so that comparison isn't likely happening. KR is represented an hour east of LA, so I'm sure it would be easy to demo the big Krons...

 

[andromedaaudio]

I think all this power is better is also a bit roomdependant .
If i had a room in which i could play as loud as i want , i doubt i would ever sell the CAT poweramp .
The more you open up on your speakers the more the headroom thing becomes important.
Somebody could skip a bit if they dont play so loud and play jazz combos stuff like that , not extremely dynamic stuff

 

[flyer]

The Italian distributor of boulder and spectral and viva has an old Tenor 75 in stock listed at 6500 euro.

OTL amps need careful matching:

Perfect speaker is 16? and 95db efficient with reasonable phase angles - expected tube life 2000 hours
When the speaker is 8? and 90db efficient with reasonable phase angles- expected tube life 1000 - 2000 hour


Below 8? they will work but tube life is so short that you are better to invest in a Tenor Audio 175s at 10,000 - 20,000 hours tube life.

Don't know what the Duetta's sensitivity is but I guess it is not going to be terrific...

 

[bonzo75]

OTL amps need careful matching:

Perfect speaker is 16? and 95db efficient with reasonable phase angles - expected tube life 2000 hours
When the speaker is 8? and 90db efficient with reasonable phase angles- expected tube life 1000 - 2000 hour


Below 8? they will work but tube life is so short that you are better to invest in a Tenor Audio 175s at 10,000 - 20,000 hours tube life.

Don't know what the Duetta's sensitivity is but I guess it is not going to be terrific...

Oh this is not on Duettas at all .On Duettas it will be a class A monster. Tenor 75 will be for horns.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Ron, by hook or by crook you need to hear the NAT Magma NEWs w yr speakers
I was speaking to Peter the other day, he's heard them, and they stopped him in his tracks
They're conservatively rated at 170W, but sound much louder. . . .

I agree. It, and the Atma-Sphere MA-2, are, to me, my most interesting alternatives to my 750s.

 

[Audiocrack]

Yes, but, to me, merely "driving" speakers is one thing, and ease of reproduction and the absence of hardening or clipping or dynamic compression is something else. On the one hand I do believe in the high headroom philosophy. That is why I have had 750 watt (in tetrode) mono-blocks for 18 years.

On the other hand I would never say it is not valid to prefer the unique sonic qualities of SETs over other sonic attributes achieved by the high headroom philosophy.

Understand your point Ron. Btw, my active Genesis 1.1 loudspeakers have also a claimed efficiency of 89db and when you visited me they were played with 30 watts Kondo Gakuoh push pull power for the large wings (the woofer towers have their own solid state amplification as your Pendragons).

 

[Ron Resnick]

Understand your point Ron. Btw, my active Genesis 1.1 loudspeakers have also a claimed efficiency of 89db and when you visited me they were played with 30 watts Kondo Gakuoh push pull power for the large wings (the woofer towers have their own solid state amplification as your Pendragons).

Yes, I know that. And it does puzzle me! As you know I loved so many things about that system, and I found it very dynamic! But if I got to know it very well and lived with it I am sure I would come around to wanting to experiment with more power.

Gary uses the long ribbon driver in a narrow frequency range, and I don't know how that affects the power needed by that driver in that implementation versus its wide-band implementation in the Pendragon. Also I assumed (I may very well be wrong) that your engineer friend made modifications which increased the sensitivity of your uniquely modified Gen 1.1 system.