System for 10K that will shame $30K systems all day long!

[Blizzard]

I actually have his Tempesta. I built them from a kit, and with Rick's help turned them into an 3-Way active system.

Right on. Nice speakers!

 

[Blizzard]

I do not see the use of AirPlay.

Anyway, with the money saved the best feature is to buy an acoustical measurement kit like this one and make a HR DRC filter to be used in HQPlayer convolver:

Now iSEMcon sells EMX-7150 mic for $346

AirPlay is quite useful if you have Apple products. Send YouTube audio from laptop or iPad/iPhone etc. Nice option to have and sounds really good too. Anyways the point of offering the image, was to make it easy for people. Even simply downloading the image and burning to stick is more than most people are willing to do. The procedure of installing the NAA daemon on the eMMC is much more advanced. But of course if you have the time and knowledge you can do anything. You can even figure out how to make the AirPlay work as well. Hell you can even make your own media player like Roon with enough time and knowledge

I can see the guy even made a how to guide on it. So anyone who what's to try, have at it:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/atta...est-dac-no-dac-hqp-naa-linux-install-how-.pdf

Nice suggestion with the room correction. Another great feature with HQplayer

 

[Blizzard]

Actually, in the other thread, I proposed a passive system made up of Benchmark DAC/Pre, Benchmark Amp and small Revel speakers paired with Revel subs. Under 10k (just one quick shot; there are many other viable alternatives out there). Have I heard it? Nope. What I know is that these primary components - source, pre, amp and speakers - come from manufacturers whose goals are fidelity to the recording and quality build, who measure and test exhaustively (and whose measurements have been confirmed independently), and who make gear that plays well with others. I have no patience for builders who do otherwise, unless they readily admit that their products operate outside of accepted standards and are very forthcoming about equipment that will/will not pair well with their own (and this is extremely rare). I'll admit that I don't understand why anyone would have patience with such foolishness, though I suppose making eccentric choices, and spending a great bit of time and money finding the eccentric choices that work well enough together, is a hobby in and of itself. But it's certainly not a hobby that interests me as long as there are still great recorded performances I haven't heard. I know my opinion is not popular here, but I believe that choosing a system, unheard, based on the above criteria, is far more likely to get good results than years of audiophile gear shuffling, in search of "synergy."

Tim

Hi Tim,

Many folks won't see the value in a system like I just recommended, or you recommended. These guys need absolute verification beforehand by either biased third party review's in major publications, or actually listening to it in a dealer showroom. For those guys, a system like this is worthless, until they have this verification. This thread is more for folks who take the time to analyze the information, and make an educated decision on whether or not the information provided is valid or not. For all the skeptics, there's plenty of comparable alternatives in the $30K plus range available in their nearest dealer's showroom.

Direct sales manufacturers are not for everyone.

 

[Blizzard]

Has anyone heard this supposedly incredible $10K system?

See last post. But perhaps someone will take the plunge and we will have verification.

 

[Folsom]

MA30 loaded speakers $2999
Folsom amp /vol $2150
Gustard X20 $800
Oppo BDP-105D $1300
Folsom simple power conditioner $1980
Pangea Audio AC 9 MKII Power Cable 4x $400
ZenWave D1 $125
Analysis Plus's Green Digital Oval AES/EBU .5m $149
Ram Electronic HS Canare 4s11 speaker cable 8ft /pair $74
Hospital grade plug in for wall, eBay $10

=$9987

The Folsom ones are priced direct order, which may not be offered too long.

I was very tempted to go with cheaper speakers, and a better power conditioner (maybe up to $5k), or the streaming DSD. But I like the Oppo versatility with the Gustard. And I'm sure no one would ever be disappointed.

 

[Blizzard]

MA30 loaded speakers $2999
Folsom amp /vol $2150
Gustard X20 $800
Oppo BDP-105D $1300
Folsom simple power conditioner $1980
Pangea Audio AC 9 MKII Power Cable 4x $400
ZenWave D1 $125
Analysis Plus's Green Digital Oval AES/EBU .5m $149
Ram Electronic HS Canare 4s11 speaker cable 8ft /pair $74

=$9977

The Folsom ones are priced direct order, which may not be offered too long.

I was very tempted to go with cheaper speakers, and a better power conditioner (maybe up to $5k), or the streaming DSD. But I like the Oppo versatility with the Gustard. And I'm sure no one would ever be disappointed.

What's the Folsom amp?

So the only transport is CD's and SACD's via the OPPO? Without HQplayer SDM/SRC the Gustard X20 won't sound near as good.

Of course cheaper cables are available, but they won't be as good.

No Tidal streaming, No Roon iPad GUI, no DSD support, no DSP to tweak sound preference, no swappable discrete input stage opamps.

I'm afraid I'd have to say my system would blow your's out of the water

 

[Folsom]

I know you'd think that. But unless the Gustard is a mistake, you're in for a serious surprise. However no matter what I say I know you won't care. All I can say to that is come visit me, or I'll introduce you to a stereo in MT that'll make you rethink red book. Best I can do.

Here's a thread on the amp as a DIY project, but it's also offered as a complete unit to whomever requests it (with seriously nice parts). The goal was to make an amplifier that within it's power range is truly high end, available to people that couldn't touch such otherwise. It's far exceeded my expectations. Even more amusing when it bested Tyson's Aleph J and F5, I later discovered the volume control I lent him so he could use it wasn't the correct one I thought it was . You may notice that even with a few flaws, Wayne from HTS wanted to listen with it over Clayton Monoblocks or fancy custom tube amps, on the "fun" day, when the Perfect Storm's were reviewed; and it's much better now. That was one hell of a surprise, I thought Ryan would play it on some cheaper speakers and send it back. I hope that's sufficient to your question.

 

[Folsom]

BTW I may have made a mistake, $50 can be taken off of the Folsom amp if the Gustard has a volume control with no bypass. If it does have a bypass I'm not sure which would be preferred until I know what the Gustard uses. Digital bit loss may not be worth it.

 

[Blizzard]

I know you'd think that. But unless the Gustard is a mistake, you're in for a serious surprise. However no matter what I say I know you won't care. All I can say to that is come visit me, or I'll introduce you to a stereo in MT that'll make you rethink red book. Best I can do.

Here's a thread on the amp as a DIY project, but it's also offered as a complete unit to whomever requests it (with seriously nice parts). The goal was to make an amplifier that within it's power range is truly high end, available to people that couldn't touch such otherwise. It's far exceeded my expectations. Even more amusing when it bested Tyson's Aleph J and F5, I later discovered the volume control I lent him so he could use it wasn't the correct one I thought it was . You may notice that even with a few flaws, Wayne from HTS wanted to listen with it over Clayton Monoblocks or fancy custom tube amps, on the "fun" day, when the Perfect Storm's were reviewed; and it's much better now. That was one hell of a surprise, I thought Ryan would play it on some cheaper speakers and send it back. I hope that's sufficient to your question.

That's the main advantage with HQplayer is the redbook performance. Resampling to DSD and bypassing the SDM/SRC of the Sabre chip.

As far as amps, that may be a cool little amp, but the amp I recommended is a world class destroyer. I had pretty much the same thing in a dealer showroom to compare it against a Devialet 400 setup and it was an embarrassment for the Devialet to say the least. Look at the Bel Canto black for a similar sounding amp when used with the Sparko labs opamp's. After all there's not much difference between the 2 amps except higher current into 1 & 2 ohm loads.

 

[Folsom]

You recommended an nCore. I wouldn't trade my amp for one, EVER. It doesn't have to have opamps, extra stuff in the signal. I refer to classD as class Dead. It's boring. And I don't really understand what makes you think an amp like mine that pairs well with $50k and $20k speakers, makes it "a cool little amp" vs. run of the mill hypex w/fancy opamp.

Perhaps I should choose another DAC? I thought the Gustard was amazing for all performance.

Also the nCore is higher performance than what is used in the BC Black; it's everything else in the Black system that makes it special.

You haven't touched the idea of a power conditioner in this conversation. Frankly I wouldn't even listen to your stereo much because it doesn't have one. I've never liked any stereo without one enough to be content and listen to a lot of music.

 

[Blizzard]

You recommended an nCore. I wouldn't trade my amp for one, EVER. It doesn't have to have opamps, extra stuff in the signal. I refer to classD as class Dead. It's boring. And I don't really understand what makes you think an amp like mine that pairs well with $50k and $20k speakers, makes it "a cool little amp" vs. run of the mill hypex w/fancy opamp.

Perhaps I should choose another DAC? I thought the Gustard was amazing for all performance.

Also the nCore is higher performance than what is used in the BC Black; it's everything else in the Black system that makes it special.

You haven't touched the idea of a power conditioner in this conversation. Frankly I wouldn't even listen to your stereo much because it doesn't have one. I've never liked any stereo without one enough to be content and listen to a lot of music.

I'm not saying your amps are no good, but there's a reason $50000 commercial systems use Hypex Ncore power. I would listen to them before judging them. If you have better technology than Hypex, I'd suggest you start marketing these modules to OEM's, and put Hypex out of business.

I think the DAC is by far the best value I've seen yet. But bypassing the SDM/SRC of the Sabre chip takes things to a new level.

The Bel canto black just uses standard NC1200 amp modules combined with the SMPS1200A700's. The amp I recommended uses the exact same power supply, only with the NC500's. The NC500's pretty much sound identical with the same buffer stages. Only difference is higher current at very low impedances. The buffer Bel Canto uses is very close to the buffer in this amp with the Sparko's.

As far as power conditioner goes, that's another bonus of using SMPS's for the amps. They reject mains interference much better than LPS's. So power conditioning doesn't have as big of an impact. I'd say add conditioning later if you want to do so. The components I've listed are far more critical.

 

[Blizzard]

i think its 10watts rms but cant certain. no my dac has no volume control, been down that path and did not like it.

You can adjust the gain on the input buffer to perfectly match your pre. It's amazing how much easier it is to get perfect sound when you know how to build this stuff. I could bring a system over to your place and have it dialled in exactly to your wildest dreams in no time. 1 system is all it would take.

 

[Folsom]

I'm not saying your amps are no good, but there's a reason $50000 commercial systems use Hypex Ncore power. I would listen to them before judging them. If you have better technology than Hypex, I'd suggest you start marketing these modules to OEM's, and put Hypex out of business.

I think the DAC is by far the best value I've seen yet. But bypassing the SDM/SRC of the Sabre chip takes things to a new level.

The Bel canto black just uses standard NC1200 amp modules combined with the SMPS1200A700's. The amp I recommended uses the exact same power supply, only with the NC500's. The NC500's pretty much sound identical with the same buffer stages. Only difference is higher current at very low impedances. The buffer Bel Canto uses is very close to the buffer in this amp with the Sparko's.

As far as power conditioner goes, that's another bonus of using SMPS's for the amps. They reject mains interference much better than LPS's. So power conditioning doesn't have as big of an impact. I'd say add conditioning later if you want to do so. The components I've listed are far more critical.

Hypex amplifiers get used due to power requirements and heat. If those are your requirements for in speakers, they're almost the only option. If the speakers were very sensitive, it'd be different. But Hypex stuff is very modular, so it's easy to plug and play. It's not my thing. It's nice, but I don't consider it to be a real contender. The sound is just never right for me. I can drop words to describe it all day because it excels with some so many common words for audiophile equipment, but overall word is boring because I'm not enticed at all to stay in front of it.

My mistake on the BC Black, I guess it is an nCore as well. But just to point out BC has been using classD amps for awhile now, and they've never been real hot sellers.

The best analogy I can give you is that Hypex reminds me of a Skyline GTR. Oh man it's fast, and handles superb. But it's also ugly, and uninteresting to me because I like a standard transmission. It's just worthless to me, the fun was never in knowing my car was fast, but about how it felt to drive. That also is pretty much the exact argument I'm giving you to my choices for a $10k system. I don't have the buzz words to support my position, but I know what I'm going to sit in front of for longer periods of time, no question.

Also, the Hypex SMPS is better than most SMPS's (but what isn't). However it doesn't provide PFC, doesn't filter the other equipment, and doesn't have dampening for capacitive loads on the line. It is not the equivalent of all power conditioning. It has an actually somewhat restrictive CMC because SMPS's have a lot of self noise. It's important to knock down as much common mode noise as possible - which the hypex's/SMPS's small transformer will generate. In fact the noise an SMPS can dump back into the AC is so substantial that requirements are getting stiffer on them for more filtration and PFC in settings where there's a lot of equipment. The Crown XLS amplifier is a good example with a much more robust filtration, and PFC - it's intended to be used around 100x other pieces of equipment.

 

[Blizzard]

Hypex amplifiers get used due to power requirements and heat. If those are your requirements for in speakers, they're almost the only option. If the speakers were very sensitive, it'd be different. But Hypex stuff is very modular, so it's easy to plug and play. It's not my thing. It's nice, but I don't consider it to be a real contender. The sound is just never right for me. I can drop words to describe it all day because it excels with some so many common words for audiophile equipment, but overall word is boring because I'm not enticed at all to stay in front of it.

My mistake on the BC Black, I guess it is an nCore as well. But just to point out BC has been using classD amps for awhile now, and they've never been real hot sellers.

The best analogy I can give you is that Hypex reminds me of a Skyline GTR. Oh man it's fast, and handles superb. But it's also ugly, and uninteresting to me because I like a standard transmission. It's just worthless to me, the fun was never in knowing my car was fast, but about how it felt to drive. That also is pretty much the exact argument I'm giving you to my choices for a $10k system. I don't have the buzz words to support my position, but I know what I'm going to sit in front of for longer periods of time, no question.

Also, the Hypex SMPS is better than most SMPS's (but what isn't). However it doesn't provide PFC, doesn't filter the other equipment, and doesn't have dampening for capacitive loads on the line. It is not the equivalent of all power conditioning. It has an actually somewhat restrictive CMC because SMPS's have a lot of self noise. It's important to knock down as much common mode noise as possible - which the hypex's/SMPS's small transformer will generate. In fact the noise an SMPS can dump back into the AC is so substantial that requirements are getting stiffer on them for more filtration and PFC in settings where there's a lot of equipment. The Crown XLS amplifier is a good example with a much more robust filtration, and PFC - it's intended to be used around 100x other pieces of equipment.

Which Ncore based Hypex amps have you listened to? Most use IC opamp based input buffer's, which is the sound signature they take on. Bel Canto just switched to Hypex Ncore last year, so you can't base the Ncores on the old ice power and Pascal modules they used to use. In fact you can't base their sound on any amp. You base it on the buffer used. Once you have been building Hypex based amps for 9 years, you might have a better understanding of why most of the commercial units sound like they do. The actual amps are completely devoid of any sonic signature what so ever. It's the buffer that determines how they will sound.

All the issues you talk about with the SMPS's are complete non issues. A modern SMPS will out preform a LPS any day of the week, as long as what it's powering has sufficient PSRR and CMRR specs. When you're using voltage regulators like the Hypex HxR's, with a PSRR rating of 110db, none of the switching noise what so ever makes it into the amp. And you can see it in the measurements.

You are talking about issues that don't exist in reality when you design the system properly. The Ncore amps are the best measuring amps in existence when combined with the SMPS's.

The only real reason to use LPS's this day and age is to make the amp much heavier, so it's big and impressive. Most people have a hard time believing something small and light is a serious amp.

Does your amp have specs that can beat this? Where's all that terrible SMPS noise?

 

[Blizzard]

While I'm posting measurement specs, might as well post some for the speakers as well. If you are among the crowd who frowns upon great measurements, this system definitely won't be for you. Avoid this thread like the black plague.

 

[Blizzard]

This is all I've found for the Gustard X20:


Frequency Response:20-20kHz/-0.1dB S/N:>128dB Channel crosstalk:-138dB @ 1kHz THD+N:<0.0005% 1 MD:<0.0005% RCA Output level:2.8Vrms @GAIN = +0dB XLR Output level:5.6Vrms @GAIN = +0dB AC power:AC 115V/220V 50/60Hz Overall Power Consumption:<50W


If you want to hear pops and crackles with this system, you're going to have to install a fireplace in your listening room and load it up with some nice dry spruce. Toss a couple wet logs in as well so you can hear the hiss from the moisture steaming out the ends

 

[Blizzard]

Hi Guys,

I found a review on the Mundorf MA-30, as well as another source to buy it in Asia:

https://translate.google.ca/transla...ifishuo.com/view_comm.php?id=9054&prev=search


https://world.taobao.com/item/42709221172.htm?spm=a312a.7700714.0.0.zzp0eG#detail

 

[Folsom]

What if I told you I have a measurement device that is unequaled, and backed up by processing power unlike anything else? More on this in a bit.

"build" Hypex amps? You mean plug in your opamp and quick connectors... They exploded onto the AudioCircle forum awhile back. It was like 'who didn't have one?' Some members still do, others never liked them.

When it comes to SMPS's, you're wrong Blizz. I don't think you understand how they work fundamentally if you're saying what I'm talking about are "non-issues". I really don't want to be rude here, but I don't think you know anything on the subject. What I'm talking about with PFC and filtration for AC mains contamination is a bigger concern now than ever before. Not everything is about whether it makes it to the amplifier. And I assure you the qualities of PF do make it. You've got all these conditions after conditions in order to make an SMPS viable in your opinion; how do you not see those conditions as obstacles that are problematic for audio designers? Also you're forgetting that classD itself is a noise generator, it's not perfect, even when it's very good like with Hypex. That noise isn't necessarily bad but it does have a signature of classD.

You do realize you can use a Hypex regulator with an LPS, right? LPS's are like SMPS's in the regard that the designer can make a very good one, or a run of the mill one. I want to advise you not to make the assumption that all amps should have SMPS's instead of LPS's, and that everyone using an LPS is simply trying to sell you weight. That's very insulting to so many designers that have tried both. Frankly you're saying 90% of the gear on this forum is 'wrong' , or overcharging for a hunk of iron.

Now what I'm about to say I highly suggest you take to heart. Measurements are indicators, not determiners. And my measurement device that I mentioned earlier is the last word, but despite how good it is it's never a guarantee that everyone will love that which measure the best, after all it's my ears so it's just an opinion; and one that says classD is class Dead.

 

[Blizzard]

What if I told you I have a measurement device that is unequaled, and backed up by processing power unlike anything else? More on this in a bit.

"build" Hypex amps? You mean plug in your opamp and quick connectors... They exploded onto the AudioCircle forum awhile back. It was like 'who didn't have one?' Some members still do, others never liked them.

When it comes to SMPS's, you're wrong Blizz. I don't think you understand how they work fundamentally if you're saying what I'm talking about are "non-issues". I really don't want to be rude here, but I don't think you know anything on the subject. What I'm talking about with PFC and filtration for AC mains contamination is a bigger concern now than ever before. Not everything is about whether it makes it to the amplifier. And I assure you the qualities of PF do make it. You've got all these conditions after conditions in order to make an SMPS viable in your opinion; how do you not see those conditions as obstacles that are problematic for audio designers? Also you're forgetting that classD itself is a noise generator, it's not perfect, even when it's very good like with Hypex. That noise isn't necessarily bad but it does have a signature of classD.

You do realize you can use a Hypex regulator with an LPS, right? LPS's are like SMPS's in the regard that the designer can make a very good one, or a run of the mill one. I want to advise you not to make the assumption that all amps should have SMPS's instead of LPS's, and that everyone using an LPS is simply trying to sell you weight. That's very insulting to so many designers that have tried both. Frankly you're saying 90% of the gear on this forum is 'wrong' , or overcharging for a hunk of iron.

Now what I'm about to say I highly suggest you take to heart. Measurements are indicators, not determiners. And my measurement device that I mentioned earlier is the last word, but despite how good it is it's never a guarantee that everyone will love that which measure the best, after all it's my ears so it's just an opinion; and one that says classD is class Dead.

This thread isn't for arguing about technology. So far you say you can build a better DAC power supply than the latest cutting edge LDO from Dustin Forman of ESS, and now you're pretty much saying Bruno Putzleys is clueless and knows nothing about power supply and amp technology. I'm sorry but it's going to take more than the information you're providing here to convince me that anything you have in the works is even close to the same league. As I said before, if you are one of the most cutting edge engineers in the industry, surpassing the abilities of Dustin Forman and Bruno Putzleys, you're probably going to be very famous soon.

There's a reason Hypex ditched their LPS's for SMPS's. It's because they destroy LPS's in every category when used with their amps.

I'm not sure what your talking about on the audiocircle forum about Hypex Ncore opamps? This is a OEM module only. Those guys haven't been playing with them at all.

Your information is full of holes and so incorrect it's almost not even worthy of a response. I suggest doing a bit more research before making these statements because they will be on public record and taint your reputation.

 

[Folsom]

I had no intention of talking about technology in this thread. You're the one that decided to just say my submission wasn't good. You don't even take it seriously into consideration.

At no point did I say I build anything better. Please, don't try to align yourself with the authenticity of designers you share nothing with. Their validity is not yours. And my opinion for what I like is mine.

NC400's and the SMPS's are available to the public through the right channels. Some people have got the NC1200, but it's not suppose to be readily available.

For the ESS DAC my needs may be different than what the LDO offers, and I prefer to try multiple things instead of deciding what's best on paper alone. That's not the same as claiming I'm a better designer. *Oops, no PM.

When I say you don't know what you're talking about with SMPS's, that's not saying Bruno doesn't know what he's talking about. There is no synonyminity between you two; to him you're a nobody as much as I am. The reality is Bruno is fully aware of everything I've mentioned about his SMPS's. And there's nothing wrong with him designing one similar to all SMPS's because their basic function requires a few things by their nature; he just makes his much better. His SMPS is his best chosen fit for the Hypex business model. Clearly based on where you see them, especially in speakers, a LPS doesn't have as many selling points for those wanting plug and play solutions in specific enclosures. He also wouldn't be the manufacturer of the LPS in the same manner, so he wouldn't make nearly as much money - not owning a transformer factory etc. He made the right choice for Hypex, and unless he's specifically stated no LPS he tried with his ears was as good, then I'm only inclined to believe the SMPS was chosen because it fits the business model and performance goals, not because "it's just the best ever look at the graphs!!!" There's nothing wrong with that. I do the same thing, choosing what fits as opposed to attempting an end all performance because it has no end. Ceramic circuit board with silver pours, or whatever, isn't always a realistic option.

I was excited about this thread when you said you were going to make it. But I thought more people would submit their ideas. Perhaps some questions would be asked as well. So far I'm the only person to submit something and it gets poo poo'd. But even before that I should have been smarter to notice the thread was about you. You basically tell everyone what's what, and deny their participation unless they'll drink the Kool-Aid. This is like so many threads on this forum where you simply try to dominate by posting.

Best of luck with your endeavors Blizzard.