Sound by Singer Closing or "Why the High End is Doomed, part 2"

[Ki Choi]

...and said accessory was ________________??

It was Burwen Bobcat software...or still is...

http://www.burwenaudio.com/BURWEN_BOBCAT.html

Ki

 

[MylesBAstor]

It was Burwen Bobcat software...or still is...

http://www.burwenaudio.com/BURWEN_BOBCAT.html

Ki

Thanks for the link Ki. I didn't even know they were still around.

 

[Alan Sircom]

ALan

It could be that I am not following the industry enough.. I am not however sure an industry will survive by not trying to grow its ranks/customers.
Should I take your last post as meaning that the survival strategy is to simply raise price? Surviving on the enthusiasts? In other words the only way for High End Audio is to become more like the Luxury Goods Industry with prices entirely uncorrelated to performance? That may work for a while but not for long ..
Interestingly enough the notion of "Lost Generation" in Audio" seems to run counter to research by one of our members here, Dr Sean Olive. His findings suggest that when presented with correct reproduction.. Young people perceive the difference and preferred products that provide such.

No Frantz, the industry will not survive without growing its ranks. And at this time, the way it grows is to seek new markets and new territories. Places that still appreciate good music and appreciate it all the more when it sounds better. It can try to re-establish itself in the traditional markets like the UK and US, but in many cases, such exercises are folly and unproductive.

Those who live in countries that make cheap audio for us, tend not to want to own their own products or cheap imports. Instead, they spend more conspicuously. They often love the products and the sound they make, but they also appreciate it for what it is, as well as what it does. If the choice is tapping that market or death, who's going to choose "or death?"

And I didn't say anything about young people's ability to perceive differences in audio quality. It's that they don't care about those differences as much as people used to, if they have to work at or pay for that improvement. We are the "me" generation, they are the "meh" generation, willing to put up with OK in many cases because today's life's is too filled with competing stuff to worry about sound quality; "it's only music".

 

[DaveyF]

Tomelex, I agree this is a hobby for you and I, BUT it sure isn't for the likes of Andy Singer.
One of the things that I am hoping will change in the industry is what I believe is a propensity for what seems like a growing number of manufacturers and dealers who seem to operate on the 'there's one born every minute' theory; particularly in regards to pricing strategy.

 

[Alan Sircom]

Hi Davey,

Disclaimer: this comment has nothing to do with Singer in particular, I know nothing about them.

I wonder what percentage of this forums readership has easy access to a high end store, and if they do, just how much high end does the store carry. I think the internet has created a much better informed customer, and a customer desirous of more choices. When I used to visit high end stores regularily, I had to travel from one to 4 hours to reach a total of three high end dealers. Most of them carried the same stuff. There was little choice among all the possibilities out there. Singer excluded, as I gather he had lots of stuff to choose from.

Anyway, perhaps our expectations are just too demanding for a high end audio house to meet as regards how many components we want to hear before making choices. Also, I found that dealers would get disturbed if you auditioned more than a couple of speakers or cd players during a visit, despite the lack of customers.

What I mean by this is you unplugged cd player a from system 2, put it on system 3, unplegged speakers from system 4 and put on system 3, etc. In other words, the value that they alone could provide was considered too much effort on their part. Then there was their WOW, that sounds so good exclamation every time you changed something cause they just wanted to make the sale, they never realized how it made them look like idiots to me.

Times have changed, and in high end, if you are not willing to provide service, and time, to allow the customer to convince themselves before they plop down some rediculous amount of money, what the heck are you in the business for? That is the way I see it, the way they seemed to see it was I was wasting their time (as soon as I wanted to swap more than two components, after all they had put their systems together and I should just buy the system I could afford!).

Tom

There are counter-arguments to some of what you say.

1. Dealers and their limited stocking policy. A dealer has to buy demonstration stock in the majority of cases. This automatically puts them into conservative mode. Consider this as if you were a dealer - are you going to invest in products that you know will sell because they sell well in other stores, or are you going to take a chance with an expensive demonstrator that may prove impossible to sell? In most cases, a dealer will have a core of safe products (usually the brands that crop up in most stores across the country) and a few products that fall into a more left-field camp. Too many left-field products and your business collapses under the weight of expensive products that fail to sell in large enough numbers. Too few and you lack differentiation. The skill is getting the balance right, especially as this balance is very dynamic

2. Limited changes per audition. Most dealers know from experience that too many changes in a single demonstration session tend to lead to confusion rather than clarity in the prospective customer. More than about three changes in a session will leave even the most experienced listener lost. You can test this for yourself in a shoe store. Try on one or two pairs of shoes and you'll make a decision; try on six pairs and you'll either buy nothing or go all Imelda Marcos and end up buying the lot. As a dealer is ultimately there to get you to make a buying decision and give them money, they will try and prevent you from basically shorting out that process

3. The informed internet individual. The internet engenders a 'knowledge rich, understanding poor' mindset. The 'who?', 'what?', 'when?' and 'where?' are easy to find, but few take the time to ask 'why?'. Far from creating a more informed customer base, it creates a series of objections and questions based on the zeitgeist of the places the person tends to browse. This is rarely a complete picture. That's not simply directed at audio; a friend of mine who is in academe is constantly frustrated by the dogmatic, Wiki-fueled yet ultimately shallow shouting matches that have replaced debate in sophomore philosophy classes

Ultimately though, dealers do need to present themselves better if they are to survive.

 

[Jimna]

To comment more on the high end industry than SBS...

I am curious about the age of everyone involved in this discussion, just because you all seem to be an accurate example of the HE industries collective think tank. I really feel that much like the folks talking here, the HE industry is a bunch of old(er) guys with no concept of what my generation is looking for in quality vs price, and how we can possibly fit into today budgeted life style. Further more I bet that the same folks have no idea what its like to survive in this economic environment as a thirty-something struggling to get ahead while still allowing some of the finer perks in life too, my guess is most have been financially secure for a long time now and have lost touch with this most basic part of todays consumer and the reality of the challenges they face everyday.

My prediction (and prayer) is that this is all a natural flushing of the HE toilet, allowing the next generation to push out the high and mighty old timers and bring some fresh ideas and reality to a market that has none of either....at least I hope so because the alternative is the death of HE. As I read of all of the vast information on e-zines and forums, I cant relate any of it to my pears, it simply doesn't translate. If my generation completely drifts away from the industry because HE doesnt understand our needs, well there isnt much hope is there? I mean yes there still is a bunch of late 40's- early 50 somethings keeping it a-float, but in 10 more yrs they will be clinging to their retirements and hoping their super systems last longer than they do. Once that happens we might see the end if changes arent made now. I seriously cant have this conversation with anyone my age, they just dont get it....which is simply because high end doesnt get us, and we are its future if it has one at all. Its a ticking time bomb in plain sight and no one seems to be doing a damn thing about it.

I apologize if my post is to far off topic.


Jim

 

[tmallin]

I am curious about the age of everyone involved in this discussion, just because you all seem to be an accurate example of the HE industries collective think tank. I really feel that much like the folks talking here, the HE industry is a bunch of old(er) guys with no concept of what my generation is looking for in quality vs price, and how we can possibly fit into today budgeted life style. Further more I bet that the same folks have no idea what its like to survive in this economic environment as a thirty-something struggling to get ahead while still allowing some of the finer perks in life too, my guess is most have been financially secure for a long time now and have lost touch with this most basic part of todays consumer and the reality of the challenges they face everyday.

My prediction (and prayer) is that this is all a natural flushing of the HE toilet, allowing the next generation to push out the high and mighty old timers and bring some fresh ideas and reality to a market that has none of either....at least I hope so because the alternative is the death of HE. As I read of all of the vast information on e-zines and forums, I cant relate any of it to my pears, it simply doesn't translate. If my generation completely drifts away from the industry because HE doesnt understand our needs, well there isnt much hope is there? I mean yes there still is a bunch of late 40's- early 50 somethings keeping it a-float, but in 10 more yrs they will be clinging to their retirements and hoping their super systems last longer than they do. Once that happens we might see the end if changes arent made now. I seriously cant have this conversation with anyone my age, they just dont get it....which is simply because high end doesnt get us, and we are its future if it has one at all. Its a ticking time bomb in plain sight and no one seems to be doing a damn thing about it.

I apologize if my post is to far off topic.


Jim

Hi, Jim. I'm 57 so I'm one of the older guys, but I'm sympathetic to your comments. The "high end" is, or at least should be, more an attitude about seeking a high quality of reproduction of music than spending huge dollars. Even in the "What's Best" context, you can always seek "what's best" in the way of music reproduction within a particular price range. Your quest could be: What's the best bargain" in a particular audio component or audio system for a particular price?

Some of the magazines have recently moved in that direction. For just one example, The Absolute Sound has a "Start Me Up" regular feature which looks at gear with which you can assemble a musically satisfying audio system for less than $1,500 or so. Also, TAS regularly publishes recommendations of particular types of components segmented by price--recommended speakers for less than $500, $1,000, etc., for example. Occasionally TAS also recommends entire systems for particular prices.

You can further focus your search for high-end equipment by defining your goal. Do you want a portable system, a home system, two-channel only or multi-channel, music-server-based system or traditional optical-disc-based system, do you want LP playback capability, and so forth.

Not everyone wants to "play" at the cost-no-object level, not even someone like me who is "financially secure" and has been at this hobby for 45 years or more. Most of us have financial priorities which mean that we limit our high-end expenditures to certain amounts well below the cost-no-object level. Most of us are looking for bargains at particular price levels, and that's what much of high-end audio talk is about: getting the "best sound" for a particular outlay in the context of a particular component or type of system.

 

[andrew singer]

For the Record :Sound By Singer,ltd is alive and well .After having opposed the very idea of online High End Audio Business for many years while watching these entities grow and prosper it occurred to me
that SBS was on the wrong side of the argument and worse trying to hold back the future. The Audiophile community had spoken.On line was just fine!So,rather than **** and moan about online vendors taking advantage of me, the ultimate High End Audio brick and mortar dealer,I decided to turn the loss of our lease into a new beginning for:
SOUND BY SINGER DIRECT, a new approach to direct sales.
At Sound by Singer Direct,the material showroom will be replaced by the virtual showroom of the mind.
While We will introduce a shopping cart for some of our products,the Desiderata of sbs direct will be to do what we always have done consult, advise ,recommend and sell by telephone,email,and in person-Yes,we will finally have the time to make house calls .
where installation is needed we will put our customers together with seasoned installers who will deal directly with them or thru us depending on the customers preference.
So,check out WWW.SOUNDBYSINGER.COM where you will find a selected group of master craftsmen
Whose products we are proud to represent
Andrew Singer

 

[Jimna]

FTR, I meant no disrespect to those of you who have put countless yrs in the trenches of an audio journey. I aspire to be you some day. My post was aimed at the industry itself, not to disrespect my elders.

I for one hope HE soldiers on and adapts to the reality of the times. Without it I fear that a high quality of reproduction of music will be hard to find, it will all be crappy ear buds and Bose and all source devices will look like an ipod.

 

[JackD201]

Good to hear Andrew. Have you still got that Triplanar VII floor demo you had on moving sale?

 

[andrew singer]

yes ido!
andy

 

[JackD201]

Expect a call soon Andy, I've got an arm board waiting for one

 

[andrew singer]

excellent!send me an email and i will get u a direct tel number

bye

 

[JackD201]

Done

 

[Gregadd]

May I suggest private deals be consumated via pm. I hate it when I have to act responsibilty. Maybe we should start a forum for deals between members?

 

[JackD201]

My apologies. Got carried away there. Communications have gone to private mode. Sorry again Greg, and to everybody else as well.

 

[Steve Williams]

Thanks to all

 

[ciamara]

The future of high-end audio

To get the very best results in sound, we feel it takes more than knowledgeable and passionate sales people. Real world results require careful system design, including true audio engineering -- not just the specification of components. Remember there is a big difference. And real engineers have the skills and the professional integrity to differentiate between overpriced products and those products based on true engineering principles.

Sanjay Patel
Ciamara Corporation

 

[kach22i]

..............But when giants such as SBS start to leave the earth, it seems to me the end of the dinosaur era is close at hand.

Add to the list Audio Dimensions in Royal Oak (SE ) Michigan.

They started their close out a couple of weeks ago, I went in today and picked up a" built in June 2009" Esoteric SA-50 CD/SACD player (Demo) for a good price.

They claimed to be a victim of the Internet.

They introduced me to what big Magnepans could sound like when properly driven, what British mini monitors (Rogers) sounded like in nearfield listing and the wonderful voice of Holly Cole. Oh, and showed me how to use a record washer that cost more than my stereo at the time was worth.

I'm going back next week to pick up the box for the CD player, get a better power cord, and a warmer interconnect for the 40lb antique beast I bought.