Sound by Singer Closing or "Why the High End is Doomed, part 2"

[audioguy]

The only on line audio stores I have dealt with are those who have good products BUT put customer service 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. While I no longer own any of their products, SVS was the very best example I have ever seen.

Based upon what I just read by an ex SBS employee, that is not an Andy Singer strong suit. If he does not fix that, his new internet business will fail as well.

 

[rblnr]

Dear Myles,

It is nice to be here and it is nice to have followed my own dream to have my own shop.

I have been fortunate to pick lines which are bringing me traffic, and believe me this really helps get customers through the door. As I mentioned in my post the market has changed and many people are looking for value as well as performance.

If you look at the remaining NYC stores they have mostly the same products different venues.

Lyric sells ARC, Ayre, B&W , Totem, Sonus Faber, Rotel, NAD, ARCAM, Marantz, Meridian, Classe,

Stereo Exchange sells Ayre, B&W, Totem, Sonus Faber, NAD, ARCAM, Marantz, Nordost, Meridian, Classe,

Innovative NO tube lines, except for a few really expensive Lamm, B&W, Classe, Rotel,

EARS NOVA GONE

This is part of the problem all of these retailers are suffering, if you are all offering the same product what is drawing a customer to that store vs another.

I have went out of my way to invest heavily in the most unique and highest value products on the market in this way my product offerings are different and there is a reason to visit my shop.

Too many retailers are reluctant to keep on reinvesting in new products and brands, I am just the opposite. Yes I draw no salary, but the strategy is paying off.

Myles I would love to have you over.

Notice an

Just want to say that I've been to Dave's place a couple of times, and it (and he) is exactly what we'd look for in a stereo store. Great and often uncommon products at all price ranges, all ready to listen to. My experience at other retailers in the NYC area has been very hit and miss -- some seemingly trying to thwart my attempts to buy something (are you listening CSA?). Dave, btw, introduced to my first great amp, a White Audio A-100, at SBS.

-- Robert Learner

 

[btf1980]

I was talking with a friend yesterday about high end audio, after an afternoon of record shopping. He raised some points, that quite honestly, I thought were very valid.

He more or less said that the industry by design is exclusionary. You don't grow by limiting access to consumers. He attends trade shows pretty regularly because of his job, and told me about the closed room auditions. What's the point of bringing your gear out, if you won't let people listen to it? The industry has become a circle jerk of regulars, press people, journalists etc. They'll bring equipment to a trade show, but not for the general public to hear it? Why?

He brought up the parochial nature of the industry. There is no education, instead it's condemnation & ridicule of how people listen to iPods, mp3s, cheap gear, HTIBs, bose etc. How will we attract younger people? Computer audio is still not accepted as true "hifi" by many, despite the fact that pretty much everyone under 40 listens to music this way. It should be the industries job to help attract & cultivate these people, and maybe show them how to maximize their listening experiences. Maybe educate them about the differences between low bit-rate mp3 and FLAC/ALAC. Stop the proselytizing of super expensive gear. It's great, but it is not essential. One look at hifi magazines, you would think it was a hobby for people like Bernie Madoff only. What is there for the average person? Look at stereophile or TAS, and it will be another review of some ungodly expensive speakers or some turntable that looks like a medieval torture device, with tone arms that could pay for a few semesters at a top tier University. There is no balance. I remember reading a review of the Esoteric SA-50, and the reviewer was gushing at how affordable it was. The industry has become so far removed from reality that $6,000 boxes are considered "cheap".

Another point he mentioned was how hifi equipment gets more expensive as time goes on, when all performance equipment gets cheaper. Computers, cars, televisions etc. They all get cheaper & better! Remember when plasma tvs were $15-$25K? They were bulky pieces of crap that used up tons of electricity. Now, you can get excellent plasmas for a little over $1K that are superior to the $15K-$25K behemoths of yesterday. May not be valid to many since these are produced in much higher quantities than hifi gear, but it is a point nevertheless. Prices come down everywhere else, not here. Prices skyrocket. We have equipment racks that cost over $15,000. Racks!

I see his points & I agree for the most part. It is true. The question is, will the industry adapt, or will it continue to falter? I mean, will we just have Michael Fremer, John Atkinson & co. talking about veblen goods that no one is buying? Has it come to this? Stores like Sound by Singer can be intimidating to people who don't know much, and they were not very accommodating or welcoming either. Don't be surprised when people don't come back to see you when you're promoting Magico speakers & dCS gear combo specials in your window that cost upwards of a quarter of a million dollars.

 

[tmallin]

I was talking with a friend yesterday about high end audio, after an afternoon of record shopping. He raised some points, that quite honestly, I thought were very valid.

He more or less said that the industry by design is exclusionary. You don't grow by limiting access to consumers. He attends trade shows pretty regularly because of his job, and told me about the closed room auditions. What's the point of bringing your gear out, if you won't let people listen to it? The industry has become a circle jerk of regulars, press people, journalists etc. They'll bring equipment to a trade show, but not for the general public to hear it? Why?

He brought up the parochial nature of the industry. There is no education, instead it's condemnation & ridicule of how people listen to iPods, mp3s, cheap gear, HTIBs, bose etc. How will we attract younger people? Computer audio is still not accepted as true "hifi" by many, despite the fact that pretty much everyone under 40 listens to music this way. It should be the industries job to help attract & cultivate these people, and maybe show them how to maximize their listening experiences. Maybe educate them about the differences between low bit-rate mp3 and FLAC/ALAC. Stop the proselytizing of super expensive gear. It's great, but it is not essential. One look at hifi magazines, you would think it was a hobby for people like Bernie Madoff only. What is there for the average person? Look at stereophile or TAS, and it will be another review of some ungodly expensive speakers or some turntable that looks like a medieval torture device, with tone arms that could pay for a few semesters at a top tier University. There is no balance. I remember reading a review of the Esoteric SA-50, and the reviewer was gushing at how affordable it was. The industry has become so far removed from reality that $6,000 boxes are considered "cheap".

Another point he mentioned was how hifi equipment gets more expensive as time goes on, when all performance equipment gets cheaper. Computers, cars, televisions etc. They all get cheaper & better! Remember when plasma tvs were $15-$25K? They were bulky pieces of crap that used up tons of electricity. Now, you can get excellent plasmas for a little over $1K that are superior to the $15K-$25K behemoths of yesterday. May not be valid to many since these are produced in much higher quantities than hifi gear, but it is a point nevertheless. Prices come down everywhere else, not here. Prices skyrocket. We have equipment racks that cost over $15,000. Racks!

I see his points & I agree for the most part. It is true. The question is, will the industry adapt, or will it continue to falter? I mean, will we just have Michael Fremer, John Atkinson & co. talking about veblen goods that no one is buying? Has it come to this? Stores like Sound by Singer can be intimidating to people who don't know much, and they were not very accommodating or welcoming either. Don't be surprised when people don't come back to see you when you're promoting Magico speakers & dCS gear combo specials in your window that cost upwards of a quarter of a million dollars.

Perhaps someone has already posted a link to this six-minute YouTube video as part of this thread, but, if not, it is worth looking at because it is at once very humorous and dead serious about the way the rest of the modern (and young) world views the high end of us old fogies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCBe7-6rw4M

 

[amirm]

Looks like Andy will start a new online business model called "Sound By Singer Direct". Good luck Andy!

Good luck indeed. Just about any high-end line has a rule against selling online and outside the territory. So he won't be able to replicate anything resembling his old business this way.

 

[FrantzM]

I was talking with a friend yesterday about high end audio, after an afternoon of record shopping. He raised some points, that quite honestly, I thought were very valid.

He more or less said that the industry by design is exclusionary. You don't grow by limiting access to consumers. He attends trade shows pretty regularly because of his job, and told me about the closed room auditions. What's the point of bringing your gear out, if you won't let people listen to it? The industry has become a circle jerk of regulars, press people, journalists etc. They'll bring equipment to a trade show, but not for the general public to hear it? Why?

He brought up the parochial nature of the industry. There is no education, instead it's condemnation & ridicule of how people listen to iPods, mp3s, cheap gear, HTIBs, bose etc. How will we attract younger people? Computer audio is still not accepted as true "hifi" by many, despite the fact that pretty much everyone under 40 listens to music this way. It should be the industries job to help attract & cultivate these people, and maybe show them how to maximize their listening experiences. Maybe educate them about the differences between low bit-rate mp3 and FLAC/ALAC. Stop the proselytizing of super expensive gear. It's great, but it is not essential. One look at hifi magazines, you would think it was a hobby for people like Bernie Madoff only. What is there for the average person? Look at stereophile or TAS, and it will be another review of some ungodly expensive speakers or some turntable that looks like a medieval torture device, with tone arms that could pay for a few semesters at a top tier University. There is no balance. I remember reading a review of the Esoteric SA-50, and the reviewer was gushing at how affordable it was. The industry has become so far removed from reality that $6,000 boxes are considered "cheap".

Another point he mentioned was how hifi equipment gets more expensive as time goes on, when all performance equipment gets cheaper. Computers, cars, televisions etc. They all get cheaper & better! Remember when plasma tvs were $15-$25K? They were bulky pieces of crap that used up tons of electricity. Now, you can get excellent plasmas for a little over $1K that are superior to the $15K-$25K behemoths of yesterday. May not be valid to many since these are produced in much higher quantities than hifi gear, but it is a point nevertheless. Prices come down everywhere else, not here. Prices skyrocket. We have equipment racks that cost over $15,000. Racks!

I see his points & I agree for the most part. It is true. The question is, will the industry adapt, or will it continue to falter? I mean, will we just have Michael Fremer, John Atkinson & co. talking about veblen goods that no one is buying? Has it come to this? Stores like Sound by Singer can be intimidating to people who don't know much, and they were not very accommodating or welcoming either. Don't be surprised when people don't come back to see you when you're promoting Magico speakers & dCS gear combo specials in your window that cost upwards of a quarter of a million dollars.

GREAT POST !!! (Sorry I had to shoot) ...

Let it be said that The High End Audio Industry is suffering but is in denial .. Whenever I, bring the point of EVERYTHING getting better while getting cheaper; everything excepts High End Audio gear, I will always find my fellow audiophiles pointing to all directions but the contrary ... I am getting less and less optimistic when the very consumers of an industry are making excuses for its disconnect with reality .. The better speakers get better? Or so says the manufacturers and promptly there is a 25 tp 40% price increase... Examples are numerous but I can recall from the top of my head Wilson MAXX2 to MAXX-3 ? 35,000 is added .. Arakis Active .. (previously 165,000) 60,000 would be added ... not SIX thousands .... SIXTY! 37% more ... Note that there are speakers who might approach , equal or even surpass its performance at the differential (60,000) or maybe less but you would be hard-pressed to find it in most magazines ... since this speaker would not be in the same "Price Class" ... ...

It should not be so .. The industry must adapt to what the public is shouting out there : Give us better products at a btter price not the other way around ... I really would like to see another example of an industry where performance is supposed to be the criterion where stagnation is rewarded with ever increasing price ... We are the ONLY industry I can think of that apply this ...

Now, another point... The Internet has to do with the demise of many of these audio-stores ... I believe customers were willing to accept the pontification, the proselytism and the condescension because they were intimidated and frankly did not know enough to challenge the all powerful messengers of the Audio Gods aka Store Owners or salespersons.. Right now .. Through Internet Fora and other discussions groups .. Anyone who really want to understand is able to. No longer does he want to shell big bucks to any pompous oracle.. He/she calls , researches the 'net and most likely will find a better price and countless recommendations from fellow enthusiasts .. No longer does he/she have to suffer the sneering attitude of the Messenger of the Audio Gods ... And it does not seem that neither the Messengers nor the Audio Gods themselves are getting the message ... We will see more closing of that nature .. Let's hope High End Audio survive their demise

 

[Gregadd]

Amir I think Andy always treid to be a national dealer. Nice to know the sky was not falling on Andy. He may yet emerge from the dense fog. God Bless and your family Andy.

 

[audiodoctor]

If Andy starts an internet business you can know two things, one that Andy is in it only for the money, and secondly he has lost the reason for getting into the high end in the first place! The entire industry is predicated at listening to components, the only way you really know what something sounds like is in direct comparison to something else, and what defines a great store is the ability to listen to different things that you are interested in.

I worked at SBS in their heyday in the 90s, you could listen to Theta vs Wadia, vs EAD vs Krell front ends, and you could come away with the front end that you really liked. What made SBS the great store it was, was the very fact that it had such a great selection of competitive brands that a prospective buyer could experience in one place.

Buying components on the internet should be outlawed, it is a disservice to the industry! When you start treating equipment of this nature, which really requires the guidance and experience of knowledgable people to set it up to get the results the customer is trying to accheive in the first place, is taken out of the equation, what you have is a walmart buying for the cheapest price mentality and comodotization of a product. High end audio purchasing should be considered a privilage and an experience, setting up a great system is an art.

The rush to the internet and trying to circumvent a retailers right to make a profit in order to purchase gear at the lowest price has lead to the dissolution of the high end audio retailing experience for many parts of the country.

The other case made for creeping prices is also way off the mark. In the case of limited production, hand made products they will always be expensive, and in the case of Wilson and JM Labs they will look for any excuse to raise prices, some of which their costs did go up in other cases their higher parts cost did not justify the 30% or higher increase in price!

Today, there are tons of great sounding components that are extremely affordable, unforutunatly due to the emergence of the Chinese. Today you can put together a great sounding system cheap: Cambridge Audio and PSB come to mind. An English made Exposure integrated amplifier is only $1,295.00 add a great pair of $500.00 speakers and you are good to go. I have a Hegel h 70 integrated amplifier which comes with a built in $1,200.00 DAC and the thing sounds incredibile, costs only $1,995.00 plug in a computer add a $1,000.00 pair of speakers and real high end system for $3,000.00 plus speaker cable.

The market dynamic has changed the biggest pitfall to the growth of the industry is not educating the youth market. The Bose animated you tube video is an excellent point of where we are failing to reach the uninitiated. The video is both sad but true in many cases.

 

[Alan Sircom]

Sorry to introduce a dose of reality into an otherwise entertaining rant-fest, but there are a few things to bear in mind.

1. Entry-level, mid-price and high-end products haven't gone away; they've been joined by a group of super-high-end products
2. The prices of some of these product and product categories have risen with inflation, but generally not as much as people expect. An entry-level NAD C315BEE is about 15% less than the index-linked price of the first NAD 3020. The Audio Research SP9's $1,695 price in 1987 was equivalent to $3,093.70 two decades later, which is $98.30 more than the 2007 launch price of the SP17. The 2010 equivalents of my first system would cost me 25% less in index-linked terms today
3. Audio went through its "smaller for cheaper" phase a long time ago. Computer and digital camera price erosion is slowing now, suggesting these markets are maturing just like audio did in the 1970s and 1980s
4. Audio changed in the 2000s. Today, many companies would likely sell exactly the same number of preamplifiers if it made a preamp at $10,000 or $100,000. In many respects, because of the shift in where the money is today, some of these companies would be more likely to sell a preamp for $100,000 than $10,000
5. I'm sure given the chance most manufacturers would rather make 1,000,000 things for $10 and at $1 profit than 100 things for $100,000 and at $10,000 profit, because there's every possibility that you don't get to sell your 100 quota. But the high-volume, low-margin world doesn't seem to apply to audio at this time. Except for streamers, they sell by the lorry-load

The usual cry from the naysayers is that this is new top-strata is killing the audio business. Why? Does the presence of the Bugatti Veyron kill the motor industry? People are struggling to buy automobiles because the economy is tight, not because of the existence of high-end automobiles. And yet, Bugatti's order books are constantly full.

Until recently, much of the traffic in the audio business was built on inexpensive and mid-price audio and video equipment. That all went away after the real estate crash. It's starting to come back, but for the last three years, sales have been largely volume sales of very cheap audio in Wal-mart or similar, or products with sports-car sticker prices with not much in between, even though there are the products to plug that gap. The exceptions are the few still thriving markets for audio (Russia, Singapore, HK, etc) where it's a status-led conspicuous purchase - in those places, high-end dominates. Upwardly mobile young Singaporeans are big fans of saving up for dCS/Jeff Rowland/Cardas/Avalon systems and the like, because they can show their affluence through better products in each of those four company's products, and because it shows respect to the boss, who has a full Scarlatti/Criterion+501s/Clear Beyond/Isis or Sentinel system. And why shouldn't they? The fact that these systems do sound good and work together well helps, of course.

 

[MylesBAstor]

Looks like Andy will start a new online business model called "Sound By Singer Direct". Good luck Andy!

http://www.soundbysinger.com/high-end-audio/product_389

That's pretty much what I heard thru unofficial channels

 

[MylesBAstor]

I was talking with a friend yesterday about high end audio, after an afternoon of record shopping. He raised some points, that quite honestly, I thought were very valid.

He more or less said that the industry by design is exclusionary. You don't grow by limiting access to consumers. He attends trade shows pretty regularly because of his job, and told me about the closed room auditions. What's the point of bringing your gear out, if you won't let people listen to it? The industry has become a circle jerk of regulars, press people, journalists etc. They'll bring equipment to a trade show, but not for the general public to hear it? Why?

He brought up the parochial nature of the industry. There is no education, instead it's condemnation & ridicule of how people listen to iPods, mp3s, cheap gear, HTIBs, bose etc. How will we attract younger people? Computer audio is still not accepted as true "hifi" by many, despite the fact that pretty much everyone under 40 listens to music this way. It should be the industries job to help attract & cultivate these people, and maybe show them how to maximize their listening experiences. Maybe educate them about the differences between low bit-rate mp3 and FLAC/ALAC. Stop the proselytizing of super expensive gear. It's great, but it is not essential. One look at hifi magazines, you would think it was a hobby for people like Bernie Madoff only. What is there for the average person? Look at stereophile or TAS, and it will be another review of some ungodly expensive speakers or some turntable that looks like a medieval torture device, with tone arms that could pay for a few semesters at a top tier University. There is no balance. I remember reading a review of the Esoteric SA-50, and the reviewer was gushing at how affordable it was. The industry has become so far removed from reality that $6,000 boxes are considered "cheap".

Another point he mentioned was how hifi equipment gets more expensive as time goes on, when all performance equipment gets cheaper. Computers, cars, televisions etc. They all get cheaper & better! Remember when plasma tvs were $15-$25K? They were bulky pieces of crap that used up tons of electricity. Now, you can get excellent plasmas for a little over $1K that are superior to the $15K-$25K behemoths of yesterday. May not be valid to many since these are produced in much higher quantities than hifi gear, but it is a point nevertheless. Prices come down everywhere else, not here. Prices skyrocket. We have equipment racks that cost over $15,000. Racks!

I see his points & I agree for the most part. It is true. The question is, will the industry adapt, or will it continue to falter? I mean, will we just have Michael Fremer, John Atkinson & co. talking about veblen goods that no one is buying? Has it come to this? Stores like Sound by Singer can be intimidating to people who don't know much, and they were not very accommodating or welcoming either. Don't be surprised when people don't come back to see you when you're promoting Magico speakers & dCS gear combo specials in your window that cost upwards of a quarter of a million dollars.

Sorry but your exclusionary argument falls apart because a trade show such as CES is by definition trade only (yes there's a few who get in thru their dealers, etc but that's a real minority). That's why there are other shows such as RMAF and now other local audio shows such as the recent one in CA.

As far as the closed room demos: these exhibitors you're referring to -or off site demonstrators-are there basically to meet their dealer network, speak with them and show prototype or products soon to be introduced. Reviewers are often invited to get press for the new products.

And is being a member of the Ferrari club being exclusionary too?

 

[MylesBAstor]

If Andy starts an internet business you can know two things, one that Andy is in it only for the money, and secondly he has lost the reason for getting into the high end in the first place! The entire industry is predicated at listening to components, the only way you really know what something sounds like is in direct comparison to something else, and what defines a great store is the ability to listen to different things that you are interested in.

I worked at SBS in their heyday in the 90s, you could listen to Theta vs Wadia, vs EAD vs Krell front ends, and you could come away with the front end that you really liked. What made SBS the great store it was, was the very fact that it had such a great selection of competitive brands that a prospective buyer could experience in one place.

Buying components on the internet should be outlawed, it is a disservice to the industry! When you start treating equipment of this nature, which really requires the guidance and experience of knowledgable people to set it up to get the results the customer is trying to accheive in the first place, is taken out of the equation, what you have is a walmart buying for the cheapest price mentality and comodotization of a product. High end audio purchasing should be considered a privilage and an experience, setting up a great system is an art.

The rush to the internet and trying to circumvent a retailers right to make a profit in order to purchase gear at the lowest price has lead to the dissolution of the high end audio retailing experience for many parts of the country.

The other case made for creeping prices is also way off the mark. In the case of limited production, hand made products they will always be expensive, and in the case of Wilson and JM Labs they will look for any excuse to raise prices, some of which their costs did go up in other cases their higher parts cost did not justify the 30% or higher increase in price!

Today, there are tons of great sounding components that are extremely affordable, unforutunatly due to the emergence of the Chinese. Today you can put together a great sounding system cheap: Cambridge Audio and PSB come to mind. An English made Exposure integrated amplifier is only $1,295.00 add a great pair of $500.00 speakers and you are good to go. I have a Hegel h 70 integrated amplifier which comes with a built in $1,200.00 DAC and the thing sounds incredibile, costs only $1,995.00 plug in a computer add a $1,000.00 pair of speakers and real high end system for $3,000.00 plus speaker cable.

The market dynamic has changed the biggest pitfall to the growth of the industry is not educating the youth market. The Bose animated you tube video is an excellent point of where we are failing to reach the uninitiated. The video is both sad but true in many cases.

I think Dave and Amir have two good points. One, is how will he carry and sell products outside his territory? As Dave mentioned, how can you sell high end equipment over the net short of having a stock room and bringing the gear over personally to the home so the buyer can listen? Or a guaranteed buyer satisfaction? Otherwise, it would seem you are buying based on Andy's recommendation.

I've already commented on the cartoon-that has appeared in many formats as iphone4 etc. The bottom line is the industry can't be everything to everyone. If someone want an all in one music system for under $500, they are better served by Sony. They can only do something for that price because they can sell millions and make up for a small profit margin with quantity of sales. And for those who point to the Chinese option, have a chat with the few manufacturers who have gone over there; it's a nightmare with rampant counterfeiting of parts.

Would you expect Ferrari to sell at 15K model? Why then a high end audio company. And no one seems to mention in that cartoon that the dealer came up a variety of options, of course the cheapest being the last, for the girl to buy. And why doesn't anyone comment upon and PRAISE those companies trying to sell those ipod docks to give young kids some better sound? Or the prevalance of music servers?

 

[btf1980]

Sorry but your exclusionary argument falls apart because a trade show such as CES is by definition trade only (yes there's a few who get in thru their dealers, etc but that's a real minority). That's why there are other shows such as RMAF and now other local audio shows such as the recent one in CA.

As far as the closed room demos: these exhibitors you're referring to -or off site demonstrators-are there basically to meet their dealer network, speak with them and show prototype or products soon to be introduced. Reviewers are often invited to get press for the new products.

And is being a member of the Ferrari club being exclusionary too?

There's a difference. Ferrari isn't complaining about people not having an interest in Ferrari. The interest is high. There's no shortage of playboys, moguls, athletes, rappers etc who want Ferraris, and those who aspire to one day own one. They can afford to be exclusionary. I can't say that about the high end hifi industry. There aren't hordes of people, wealthy or otherwise beating down the door for MBL amps.

 

[Alan Sircom]

There's a difference. Ferrari isn't complaining about people not having an interest in Ferrari. The interest is high. There's no shortage of playboys, moguls, athletes, rappers etc who want Ferraris, and those who aspire to one day own one. They can afford to be exclusionary. I can't say that about the high end hifi industry. There aren't hordes of people, wealthy or otherwise beating down the door for MBL amps.

Except that this is describing a trade show and trade shows have trade conferences that you don't get into unless you are part of that trade. That holds with any trade, big or small; if I walked into a trade meeting on the Ferrari stand at a motor show, do you think I would be welcomed with open arms, or sent packing?

In other news, I've found stores that list their opening hours from 9am-8pm aren't open at midnight. Damn them and their exclusionary door policy.

Are there any more windmills at which you care to tilt?

 

[FrantzM]

Would you expect Ferrari to sell at 15K model? Why then a high end audio company. And no one seems to mention in that cartoon that the dealer came up a variety of options, of course the cheapest being the last, for the girl to buy. And why doesn't anyone comment upon and PRAISE those companies trying to sell those ipod docks to give young kids some better sound? Or the prevalance of music servers?

On the Ferrari comparison .. Aside from the status that it represents .. Performance-wise... a Nissan GT-R is as quick in the 0-60 mph as most Ferrari. Exotic car manufacturers are now pressed to produce cars that can truly compete with much less expensive models ... That is the basic truth .. A Nissan GT-R or BMW M3 (another super, super Car) will put to shame most exotics you care to align next to these and will likely be more reliable ... much more ... So aside from the status that a Ferrari bestow its owner .. If it comes to performance, they are no longer at the top of the curve ... By the way, Nissan makes 15 K cars ...

Now to get back at performance and pricing .. Does anyone here truly believes that those 300 K amps will smoke ANY amps around? Notice I did not talk about 30 K speaker cables ....

So are we coming to term that our dear industry is coming closer to Luxury goods than performance in term of pricing ? Are we coming to term to with the fact that those price are becoming more and more disconnected with performance? We can deny but the facts are looking at us with piercing eyes.

The Music servers were almost forced on the Audiophile community. It isn't that these were welcomed with opened arms. The biggest problems seem to be the difficulty to milk out the music server when almost any PC can be .. a music server .. Thus the emergence of "Audiophile"-USB cables and "Audiophile" CAT 5 cables !!! What is there to applaud? Really?

It seems important that we , of the High End Audio, both professionals and enthusiasts open our eyes to this sad reality .. The industry is not growing. We are not getting new people in our fold... It seems the same people are buying and buying over ... This is not sustainable ... In this way lie doom and withering .. Look around, the icons of High End are slowly disappearing. What will it take to revive this industry? I am certain it will not be denial

 

[Gregadd]

As moderator: I think the point has been made as to Andys' personality and profit motives. As a competing dealer there is a conflict of interest. Especially where Andy has had no opportunity for rebuttal. I am not issuing a formal admonition. I think it is just a point to consider.

 

[American Audiophile]

The mercurial always resurface somewhere and so will Andy and SBS, that is a given. But his previous business model was outdated in todays market.

 

[Alan Sircom]

On the Ferrari comparison .. Aside from the status that it represents .. Performance-wise... a Nissan GT-R is as quick in the 0-60 mph as most Ferrari. Exotic car manufacturers are now pressed to produce cars that can truly compete with much less expensive models ... That is the basic truth .. A Nissan GT-R or BMW M3 (another super, super Car) will put to shame most exotics you care to align next to these and will likely be more reliable ... much more ... So aside from the status that a Ferrari bestow its owner .. If it comes to performance, they are no longer at the top of the curve ... By the way, Nissan makes 15 K cars ...

Now to get back at performance and pricing .. Does anyone here truly believes that those 300 K amps will smoke ANY amps around? Notice I did not talk about 30 K speaker cables ....

So are we coming to term that our dear industry is coming closer to Luxury goods than performance in term of pricing ? Are we coming to term to with the fact that those price are becoming more and more disconnected with performance? We can deny but the facts are looking at us with piercing eyes.

The Music servers were almost forced on the Audiophile community. It isn't that these were welcomed with opened arms. The biggest problems seem to be the difficulty to milk out the music server when almost any PC can be .. a music server .. Thus the emergence of "Audiophile"-USB cables and "Audiophile" CAT 5 cables !!! What is there to applaud? Really?

It seems important that we , of the High End Audio, both professionals and enthusiasts open our eyes to this sad reality .. The industry is not growing. We are not getting new people in our fold... It seems the same people are buying and buying over ... This is not sustainable ... In this way lie doom and withering .. Look around, the icons of High End are slowly disappearing. What will it take to revive this industry? I am certain it will not be denial

We aren't getting new people into audio because we have a 'lost generation' of music lovers who don't particularly care about the sound it makes. This doesn't just mean they aren't buying high-end audio, they aren't buying any audio in great numbers now, unless it's a pair of Skullcandy headphones for their iPod. Even this is questionable today - those people I know in the music business have seen a marked downturn in 'iPod-targeted' music sales recently, as people move from an iPod to an iPod app on an iPhone.

Why do you think Monster Cable is now in the headphone and the earphone business? Because Noel Lee is a smart businessman and can see his next generation of Monster customers not buying speaker cable; not because of "cables don't matter" arguments, but because they aren't buying enough loudspeakers. I've heard the same from almost every end of the audio world... even our Wal-Mart equivalent struggles to sell a $28 'hi-fi' system to anyone under 40 these days.

If the Japanese multinationals and 'the people on the mountain' cannot reach this market anymore with marketing budgets larger than the whole specialty audio industry, what chance does the little guy stand?

 

[FrantzM]

ALan

It could be that I am not following the industry enough.. I am not however sure an industry will survive by not trying to grow its ranks/customers.
Should I take your last post as meaning that the survival strategy is to simply raise price? Surviving on the enthusiasts? In other words the only way for High End Audio is to become more like the Luxury Goods Industry with prices entirely uncorrelated to performance? That may work for a while but not for long ..
Interestingly enough the notion of "Lost Generation" in Audio" seems to run counter to research by one of our members here, Dr Sean Olive. His findings suggest that when presented with correct reproduction.. Young people perceive the difference and preferred products that provide such.

 

[MylesBAstor]

We aren't getting new people into audio because we have a 'lost generation' of music lovers who don't particularly care about the sound it makes. This doesn't just mean they aren't buying high-end audio, they aren't buying any audio in great numbers now, unless it's a pair of Skullcandy headphones for their iPod. Even this is questionable today - those people I know in the music business have seen a marked downturn in 'iPod-targeted' music sales recently, as people move from an iPod to an iPod app on an iPhone.

Why do you think Monster Cable is now in the headphone and the earphone business? Because Noel Lee is a smart businessman and can see his next generation of Monster customers not buying speaker cable; not because of "cables don't matter" arguments, but because they aren't buying enough loudspeakers. I've heard the same from almost every end of the audio world... even our Wal-Mart equivalent struggles to sell a $28 'hi-fi' system to anyone under 40 these days.

If the Japanese multinationals and 'the people on the mountain' cannot reach this market anymore with marketing budgets larger than the whole specialty audio industry, what chance does the little guy stand?

I think some of the issue here is advertising. Advertising, unfortunately, brings credibilty in present day society. Bose bought credibility because its ads air on every TV station and are featured in every magazine. Imagine where high-end would be if they had infinite ad dollars.

Ten years or so ago, Mark Levinson and Dick Burwen brought out this $300 (or less?) accessory to improve the sound of MP3. It never got any traction because they didn't have any capital to back the product.