Sound by Singer Closing or "Why the High End is Doomed, part 2"

marty

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
3,039
4,209
2,520
United States
jc
With all due respect, there was a public mailing from Singer announcing his closing. If my remarks were "the bearer of bad news", keeping them hidden from other audiophiles serves no useful purpose in my opinion. Rather, the news is fair and appropriate for discussion. The hi-end industry is in trouble. When you have an illness, would you want your doctor to keep the news to himself? Or would you prefer that he gather the thoughts from the leading key opinion leaders to make sure he is providing his best efforts towards a cure?
Marty
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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I saw the add in Stereophile. No where did he say, "Going out of Business."It's a "Clarence Sale" because he lost his lease. In DC I keep finding new stores. Maybe he' ll go Internet and not have a brick and mortar store. As Chicken little said, "The sky is falling, the sky is falling it hit me on the head."
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,238
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New York City
jc
With all due respect, there was a public mailing from Singer announcing his closing. If my remarks were "the bearer of bad news", keeping them hidden from other audiophiles serves no useful purpose in my opinion. Rather, the news is fair and appropriate for discussion. The hi-end industry is in trouble. When you have an illness, would you want your doctor to keep the news to himself? Or would you prefer that he gather the thoughts from the leading key opinion leaders to make sure he is providing his best efforts towards a cure?
Marty

The announcement is also up on his website.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
10,575
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Not that it really matters...

I'm not on SBS mailing list but this link says Clearence Sale. We lost our lease and are shutting down our showroom. We are pondering our next move. http://www.soundbysinger.com/high-end-video/product_385

By all means check that link and make sure I am not in early senility. I will make an with MY GP and my optician. Stereophile September 2010 p.73 is an SBS add Sponsored by VTL. No mention of closing. I realize this ads are purchased in advance.
 

btf1980

New Member
Aug 17, 2010
6
0
0
Before he updated his site on August 6th saying they lost their lease, he sent out an email to his customers on his mailing list.

See it here - http://bit.ly/bmvMCj

So everyone knows. In fact, I'm sure he would want everyone to know. He is trying to sell everything in stock! A liquidation sale would be pointless if it was a secret...
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
10,575
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Many businesses liquidate thier inventory before moving. Still no mention of going out of business in your link. If it says so in the private email, great! Your link says "While we ponder our next move. At least I know I'm not blind or senile.
 

btf1980

New Member
Aug 17, 2010
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Many businesses liquidate thier inventory before moving. Still no mention of going out of business in your link. If it says so in the private email, great! Your link says "While we ponder our next move. At least I know I'm not blind or senile.

I didn't mention anything about going out of business.
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Oh great. Then I'm golden.
 

FrantzM

Member Sponsor & WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
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Hi

I don't feel any joy about what's happening to SBS. I would not rather speculate, I know absolutely nothing about his problems or lack of these thereof. I must observe a certain tendency to look at things with pink-colored glass .. We seem to refuse to admit that the High End Audio Industry is in trouble, unless, we the interested acknowledge it , it wil go further unto problems ... Things have to be real bleak when a proud iconic store like SBS is liquidating its inventory... What for? I would ask ? To travel light? Come one guys .. there is trouble and considerable ones in the high end. This is sad, yet we should be forewarned .. It is not a negative stance it is a realistic one.
Often an Industry matures through this kind of shake-up .. We can only hope our dear High End Audio comes back stronger and with more interesting offerings ... For now it is experiencing life-threatening problems ...
 

Gregadd

WBF Founding Member
Apr 20, 2010
10,575
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Metro DC
The high end has been dying every since I became a part of it. Stores, manufacturers, and magazines come and go. With all due respect I never considered SBS an icon. Mike Kay and Lyric Hi-fi that's an icon. Maybe Andy flew to close to the sun and his wings melted. Who knows? JGH lost his magazine early on but remained an influence until his dying day. HP was writing a column for a magazine started by his former disciples. The high end survived solid state and CD. Both were "perfect" and made the high end unnecessary. In my mind the high ends biggest problem is competing against itself. Some of the products have gotten so good the law of diminishing returns has set in. Do I really want to spend another $20k for a speaker only slightly better than what I have now? Especially if there is only a limited amount of software that will reveal that difference.
 

audiodoctor

New Member
Aug 16, 2010
13
1
1
A new perspective, on Audio Retailing from an Audio Retailer and ex SBS employee.

Hi guys,

I have been following this thread for a while and I thought it would be fun to write in.

My name is Dave Lalin, I worked at SBS from 1989-1996, then at Innovative Audio from 1996-1999 and back at Singer from 1999 to 2005 then I left to start my own company, Audio Doctor. You can say I know Andy well, as well as the workings of SBS for both good and bad.

I do believe there are multiple parts to this saga, the first is the rent issues, which as Myles pointed out to completely changed the profitability and viability of having a huge store which went from an asset to a liability, the second is the erosion of a customer base, the industry is not doing anything to educate the younger generation that an ipod and a cheap set of headphones is a toy not a real music system, the third is Andy himself and the way the store was run.

Even in today's tough economic client there are audio stores that are doing well, one of the cornerstones in this business is the customer installation world. There are many custom install houses doing $200k installations which are profitable. Andy never had the ability to crack that segment of the market, which requires true dedication by the entire staff and sometimes you have to kiss the asses of the project managers, GCs, etc and a dedication to do it right, which Andy would never do. An interior designer doesn't want to see speakers, yet stores like SBS **** off and alienate the high end interior design crowd, who generally work with the wealthy who can afford good gear, by only pushing gear which the designers deem ugly and offensive.

The last part of the story is Andy is a polarizing figure, a true jekyl and hyde. Andy can be highly enrolling, charming and patient at times while others his treatment of both customers and staff boardered on insanity. Over the years i heard a litany of woes, from clients with bungled jobs, or poor service. This is bad business practice if you give good service and make the customers happy you may continue even in a bad economy.

If you put the customers first and profits second you will win over a lot more people. Today you have to work harder and smarter. Andy's model never changed and his demise is part of that reason.

As per me, my model is working wonderfully. I have been preaching the gospel of the micro store for years. If you look at circuit city or best buy with their huge stores, with wasted aisle space, huge arrays of shelves filled with low profit items, poorly trained staff, and bad displays and merchandising with too much overlapping products which confuse the client makes you wonder why best buy is still around.

With that being said I left SBS in 2005 because I was fed up with Andy and his treatment of both me and client's in general and proceeded to turn my 4,000 sq foot home into a private by appointment audio store. it is 2010 I have four sound rooms, six listening rooms, and $800,000.00 worth of gear on display, a micro SBS. However, where Andy and I differ is the selection of products, I worked very hard to find amazing sounding products that are more affordable while Andy generally went only for the most expensive products where ever he could. My Scaena speakers at $60k can challenge the $180k JM Labs, my $10k AMR CD 77 can compare with a $30-70k DCS stack, etc, and my business is doing well.
I feel that customers really benefit from someone who is selling superb gear and is looking out for their best interests.

I hope this sheds some light on the saga.

Sincerely,

Dave Lalin, President, Audio Doctor, www. audiodoctor.com, way out of date website no one is comming, if anyone is interested in my line listing here it is:

AMR, Artcoustic, Audioquest, ASI, Anthem, BAT, Bryston, Conrad Johnson, Cabasse, Chord Electronics, Cambridge Audio,Cyrus,l Dali, Earthquake, Exposure, Esoteric,Gallo, Gershman, HRT, Hegel, Isotek, Jl Audio, KEF Reference,Kubala Sosna, Luxman,Manley, Micromega, Naimnet, Nuforce, Primare, Plinius, PSB, Qsonix, Rega, RTi, Running Springs, Roksan, Runco,Scanea, Synergistic, Soundstring, Stillpoints, Screen Innovations, Solid Tech, Salamander, Stealth, Shakti, Tannoy, Usher, Vincent, Walker, and probably a few others i have missed.

My Kef 207.2 sound incredible yet cost $7k less than a Magico or Wilson, by preaching price over performance and the flavor of the month you may **** off a lot of consumers who can pick up on the retailers real motive.
 

amirm

Banned
Apr 2, 2010
15,813
38
0
Seattle, WA
Good first post Andy :). I am with you all the way except maybe the home showroom part :). In this part of the country, the code would not allow it if you have any employees that are not family members (we looked at that option intensely).

And you are right on as far as where the money is in the high-end. Our showroom is almost entirely built on architectural products. We attempt to balance fidelity with the looks and think products of this come have come a long way toward meeting both goals. We even went as far as picking a name which would appeal to non-technical people and that of the female community as to be all inclusive. And we also went relatively small in size (larger than your house but not by a lot). We have a full custom group which is driving the bulk of our business until our showroom is ready. We even go as far as providing line voltage services to both differentiate us from others and also to make it easier for customers and builders to do business with us (who wants to call an electrician just to run an outlet).

Is it going to work? Ask me a year from now :). But so far, so good.

I happen to know Bestbuy executives from my larger venture. While I fault them in some critical areas to be sure (outside of the scope of current discussion), they do have a plan and do make money from ways that may not be so obvious to a person on the outside. They are certainly better than many of the others who have gone out of business although I would put Fry's ahead of them by a mile.

Net, net, I am with you that selling high dollar gear is still with us. But the business is not necessary a big retail space with odd looking speakers and such. That business is very hard in my opinion. Businesses have to incorporate new trends as they develop and not wait 'till it is too late. Whether someone likes digital audio or not, it is part and parcel of offering audio products for example.
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,238
81
1,725
New York City
A new perspective, on Audio Retailing from an Audio Retailer and ex SBS employee.

Hi guys,

I have been following this thread for a while and I thought it would be fun to write in.

My name is Dave Lalin, I worked at SBS from 1989-1996, then at Innovative Audio from 1996-1999 and back at Singer from 1999 to 2005 then I left to start my own company, Audio Doctor. You can say I know Andy well, as well as the workings of SBS for both good and bad.

I do believe there are multiple parts to this saga, the first is the rent issues, which as Myles pointed out to completely changed the profitability and viability of having a huge store which went from an asset to a liability, the second is the erosion of a customer base, the industry is not doing anything to educate the younger generation that an ipod and a cheap set of headphones is a toy not a real music system, the third is Andy himself and the way the store was run.

Even in today's tough economic client there are audio stores that are doing well, one of the cornerstones in this business is the customer installation world. There are many custom install houses doing $200k installations which are profitable. Andy never had the ability to crack that segment of the market, which requires true dedication by the entire staff and sometimes you have to kiss the asses of the project managers, GCs, etc and a dedication to do it right, which Andy would never do. An interior designer doesn't want to see speakers, yet stores like SBS **** off and alienate the high end interior design crowd, who generally work with the wealthy who can afford good gear, by only pushing gear which the designers deem ugly and offensive.

The last part of the story is Andy is a polarizing figure, a true jekyl and hyde. Andy can be highly enrolling, charming and patient at times while others his treatment of both customers and staff boardered on insanity. Over the years i heard a litany of woes, from clients with bungled jobs, or poor service. This is bad business practice if you give good service and make the customers happy you may continue even in a bad economy.

If you put the customers first and profits second you will win over a lot more people. Today you have to work harder and smarter. Andy's model never changed and his demise is part of that reason.

As per me, my model is working wonderfully. I have been preaching the gospel of the micro store for years. If you look at circuit city or best buy with their huge stores, with wasted aisle space, huge arrays of shelves filled with low profit items, poorly trained staff, and bad displays and merchandising with too much overlapping products which confuse the client makes you wonder why best buy is still around.

With that being said I left SBS in 2005 because I was fed up with Andy and his treatment of both me and client's in general and proceeded to turn my 4,000 sq foot home into a private by appointment audio store. it is 2010 I have four sound rooms, six listening rooms, and $800,000.00 worth of gear on display, a micro SBS. However, where Andy and I differ is the selection of products, I worked very hard to find amazing sounding products that are more affordable while Andy generally went only for the most expensive products where ever he could. My Scaena speakers at $60k can challenge the $180k JM Labs, my $10k AMR CD 77 can compare with a $30-70k DCS stack, etc, and my business is doing well.
I feel that customers really benefit from someone who is selling superb gear and is looking out for their best interests.

I hope this sheds some light on the saga.

Sincerely,

Dave Lalin, President, Audio Doctor, www. audiodoctor.com, way out of date website no one is comming, if anyone is interested in my line listing here it is:

AMR, Artcoustic, Audioquest, ASI, Anthem, BAT, Bryston, Conrad Johnson, Cabasse, Chord Electronics, Cambridge Audio,Cyrus,l Dali, Earthquake, Exposure, Esoteric,Gallo, Gershman, HRT, Hegel, Isotek, Jl Audio, KEF Reference,Kubala Sosna, Luxman,Manley, Micromega, Naimnet, Nuforce, Primare, Plinius, PSB, Qsonix, Rega, RTi, Running Springs, Roksan, Runco,Scanea, Synergistic, Soundstring, Stillpoints, Screen Innovations, Solid Tech, Salamander, Stealth, Shakti, Tannoy, Usher, Vincent, Walker, and probably a few others i have missed.

My Kef 207.2 sound incredible yet cost $7k less than a Magico or Wilson, by preaching price over performance and the flavor of the month you may **** off a lot of consumers who can pick up on the retailers real motive.

Hi Dave,

Nice to see you here :)
 

audiodoctor

New Member
Aug 16, 2010
13
1
1
Dear Myles,

It is nice to be here and it is nice to have followed my own dream to have my own shop.

I have been fortunate to pick lines which are bringing me traffic, and believe me this really helps get customers through the door. As I mentioned in my post the market has changed and many people are looking for value as well as performance.

If you look at the remaining NYC stores they have mostly the same products different venues.

Lyric sells ARC, Ayre, B&W , Totem, Sonus Faber, Rotel, NAD, ARCAM, Marantz, Meridian, Classe,

Stereo Exchange sells Ayre, B&W, Totem, Sonus Faber, NAD, ARCAM, Marantz, Nordost, Meridian, Classe,

Innovative NO tube lines, except for a few really expensive Lamm, B&W, Classe, Rotel,

EARS NOVA GONE

This is part of the problem all of these retailers are suffering, if you are all offering the same product what is drawing a customer to that store vs another.

I have went out of my way to invest heavily in the most unique and highest value products on the market in this way my product offerings are different and there is a reason to visit my shop.

Too many retailers are reluctant to keep on reinvesting in new products and brands, I am just the opposite. Yes I draw no salary, but the strategy is paying off.

Myles I would love to have you over.

Notice an
 

mullard88

Well-Known Member
Jun 5, 2010
948
62
1,588
Picture a pair of Magico Model 6s...now picture a BMW 6 series coupe...got it? Now consider this....you can buy TWO BMW 6 series coupes for the same $160K. And that's why the high end may be doomed.

Ha ha ha . . . . A friend once told me that BMW is really means "Brings Me Women". Don't think the Magico Model 6 will attract a lot of women. If you can, go into the website of The Sound Chamber, a extreme high end retail shop in Hong Kong. They have an interesting ad on the Magico Ultimate.
 

MylesBAstor

Well-Known Member
Apr 20, 2010
11,238
81
1,725
New York City
Ha ha ha . . . . A friend once told me that BMW is really means "Brings Me Women". Don't think the Magico Model 6 will attract a lot of women. If you can, go into the website of The Sound Chamber, a extreme high end retail shop in Hong Kong. They have an interesting ad on the Magico Ultimate.

In New York, BMW = Break My Window ;)
 

Alan Sircom

[Industry Expert]/Member Sponsor
Aug 11, 2010
302
17
363
Ha ha ha . . . . A friend once told me that BMW is really means "Brings Me Women". Don't think the Magico Model 6 will attract a lot of women. If you can, go into the website of The Sound Chamber, a extreme high end retail shop in Hong Kong. They have an interesting ad on the Magico Ultimate.

Unfortunately, in London, a shiny new car is a blank canvas for someone's key. That applies to any car, but a new BMW might as well have a target painted on it. And at least you won't come home to find your Magico propped up on bricks with all its spikes missing.
 

Alan Sircom

[Industry Expert]/Member Sponsor
Aug 11, 2010
302
17
363
This is part of the problem all of these retailers are suffering, if you are all offering the same product what is drawing a customer to that store vs another.

Dave,

You highlight a problem that's endemic in most places right now - identistore! Perhaps part of the reason people visit a bespoke retailer is for the bespoke part... if you buy from a Magnolia store, you'll get more or less the same system you would get in any other Magnolia store. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with this, but it begins to be the wrong model when your clients are looking at spending very large sums on audio, because they might just want something a little more individual.

Because, repeat after me, "We are all individuals."
 

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