Sound by Singer Closing or "Why the High End is Doomed, part 2"

marty

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Most audiophiles were first enamoured by spectacular sound reproduction from a particular "hi-end" system either at a dealer, or at the home of a friend who purchased such a system from a dealer. Once smitten, many audiophiles started frequenting dealers both in their region and outside their region to see and hear the very latest and newest gear on a regular basis. This was particularly true before there were regional Stereophile shows, or CES events that were open to the public. We also went to high end retail outlets to enjoy the pleasure of the company of other audiophile-minded folks like ourselves with whom we could share our trials and tribulations, including the economic frustrations of not being able to afford the latest gear! (All of us were poor at one time or another!). I remember that going to places such as Soundex in Willow Grove, PA and Chestnut Hill Audio in Philly on any given Saturday in the 80's not so much as an adventure in hearing audio gear, but rather, more like attending a social club. The same people were there every week. We not only professed our opinions on the latest gear, but shared much about the music we enjoyed. It's how I came to know a lot about music and musicians of which I was not previously aware. It was, for us, our community's "barbershop". There was genuine camaraderie among us.

It is with great sadness then, that I noticed a particularly famous hi-end retailer, Andy Singer of the veritable "Sound by Singer" in Manhattan, who appears to be closing his doors. After some pondering and reflection, I think I am disproportionately disturbed by this because it is a very real signal of the sea change many of us have been observing for some time now; which is namely, that the "hi end" as we know it is dying. Recall this is a specialty market that at best, 100,000 people belong to as potential customers. The realities of today's economy combined with dramatic improvement in performance of audio gear at reasonable prices that can now be easily obtained as a simple commodities and not as audio "art", allows the vast majority of folks to achieve excellent home music reproduction at affordable prices conveniently. (For part 1, see: http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?757-The-B-amp-G-Z-92-or-%93Why-the-Hi-End-is-Doomed%94). No longer is there a need to go into the "sanctum sanctorum" of some arrogant ass of a hi end dealer and put up with "I am the guru, you are my pupil" crap, which is the way most of us broke into the hi end. If SBS closes for good (they claim they lost their lease and may yet emerge again as an entity that may or may not be the same as SBS), I will miss them. I bought my Siegfried's there and Andy Singer has always given me more than my share of the time of day for years even though I did not purchase stuff there regularly. Andy is the quintessential NY audiophile; literally a "bigger than life" dealer who commands respect from manufacturers and consumers alike. Show him a little respect and kindness and he will put himself out there for you and return that kindness by sharing knowledge that you can learn from. However, if you show him rudeness and attitude and you should expect to be ignored in return.

But here's the great paradox. The very thing that made SBS an enjoyable experience for knowledgable audiophiles is what helped kill it commercially. Average Joe is far more afraid of going into a place like SBS than they are of going into an automobile showroom. But you essentially have to go to a new car showroom to buy new car. However, audio gear (with the exception of the most esoteric audio gear) can be bought on-line or at a wide variety of consumer retail stores staffed by doting and friendly salespersons who are not particularly skilled, but are easily accessible. At their worst, they can push buttons and let you hear a lot of different equipment. At their best, well, sadly, it's typically no more than the fact they can push buttons and let you hear a lot of different equipment

Permit me, if you will, to make the analogy that specialized hi end audio dealers are like big pharmaceutical companies. For the past twenty years, big pharma has been a failing business, which is why there have been and will continue to be so many acquisitions and mergers in the industry. In fact, it is predicted that in 10 years, there may only be 5 or 6 big pharma companies left! The top 100 selling drugs cover only 40 pharmaceutical targets or classes and most big pharma companies do not have robust development pipelines with new compounds on their horizons. Some believe that the truly innovative compounds of the future are more likely to be discovered by small biotech companies than big pharma companies. I do not want to make this thread about drug companies, only to point out this analogy: I wonder- how many really specialized hi-end audio dealers will there be nationally in 5-10 years? The answer, sadly, is- probably fewer than there are now especially if the apparent fate of SBS offers any guidance. Here is one of the country's largest retailers (I am no longer referring to Andy Singer's suit size), in one of the most knowledgeable audiophile markets in the world, in one of the most affluent cities of the world, who can't seem to make it. What does that tell us?

I wish I could be more optimistic. But when giants such as SBS start to leave the earth, it seems to me the end of the dinosaur era is close at hand. Yup, I guess that those of us that love hi-end audio gear and have a few grey hairs are indeed dinosaurs. Lest we forget, dinosaurs ruled for a hell of a long time. But hey, everyone's number is up at some time, even hi-end audio dinosaurs and the retailers who served their kind.
Marty
 
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FrantzM

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Marty

I think I am as saddened as you are ... I would like to be more optimistic however...

I believe the High End Audio Industry can survive if they revert to performance something they seem to have forgotten about in the race toward profitability. When an industry relies on doubtful claims for its survival isn't it darwinism at its best to see it disappear? Almost everything technological seems to be getting better and less expensive while High End Audio seems to have taken a completely different path: Subtle to non existent performance gains for gravity defying price increases ... Contrast that to video ... It doesn't help that as an industry and hobby, High ENd Audio is not attracting a trove of new customers ... People are willing to pay more for quality , vide the success of the Apple iPhone, iPod or one could say the Blackberry and Android phones and the surge in more expensive, really, provably better earbuds .. but when an industry dares sell a Cat 5 cable for $500 or have several speaker cables for $30 K that most people including audiophiles can't reliably discern.. one should not be surprised to see an accumulation of bad faith toward it ...

I will stop there .. I only hope the Industry and its captains see the light else it is not only SBS that will close its doors ...
 
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amirm

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I didn't think Singer's problems were related to high-end audio but rather, the "creative" financial instruments he had created to move expensive gear. The financial crash put a huge dent in that way of doing business.
 

MylesBAstor

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I wouldn't count him out yet.
 

DWR

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I am going to be a little more optimistic too....if this is a loss of the lease situation the business may very well re-emerge. I would like to think that in the end when this all "shakes out" that enough people will realize that the high end equipment and quality sound is very well worth the time, effort, and price as many of us here have. Lets hope so!
 

es347

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Picture a pair of Magico Model 6s...now picture a BMW 6 series coupe...got it? Now consider this....you can buy TWO BMW 6 series coupes for the same $160K. And that's why the high end may be doomed.
 

marty

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Picture a pair of Magico Model 6s...now picture a BMW 6 series coupe...got it? Now consider this....you can buy TWO BMW 6 series coupes for the same $160K. And that's why the high end may be doomed.

EXACTLY! You've got it. Besides, the M6's have horrible 0-60 times and handle poorly. On the other hand, they are very fuel efficient and are able to run well on the gas that the average audiophile puts out.
 

FrantzM

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Methinks that however we, audiophiles, force ourselves to justify today's high End gear prices .. It remains one of the principal reasons of the ongoing industry problems ... Re-read Kach's last post it says it all ...
 

wineslob

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We live in an era of "Home Theater" with in-the-box systems (read Bose), small speakers that have good WAF ect, etc........ We are and were a miniscule segment of the population, and it's become even smaller.
As Kach states, the HI-End needs to get back to earth.
 

MylesBAstor

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I am going to be a little more optimistic too....if this is a loss of the lease situation the business may very well re-emerge. I would like to think that in the end when this all "shakes out" that enough people will realize that the high end equipment and quality sound is very well worth the time, effort, and price as many of us here have. Lets hope so!

Thing is landlords also despite the recession expect businesses to pony up more rent each time a businesses' leases expire. Walking around Manhattan, it is absolutely shocking to see the number of businesses closed. Recently my girlfriend and I were walking around the Village and swear half the businesses were closed. The same is also true for the Upper East Side where I reside. It seems that businesses that have a small margin of profit, eg restaurants are closing in droves.

What I don't understand, is wouldn't the landlord be better off getting rent than letting the property sit idle for months, even years as I've seen now. I'm sure that the rent got to the point where Andy felt he wouldn't be able to make a profit. Andy's no fool and knows that location is everything and hopefully will have the time to regroup and find a property that will make sense for his business. As those old timers remember, the 16th St. store is not his first storefront; he began on the second floor of a walkup tenament on E.34th. St. many years ago.

Also there also may be other things that I'm not at liberty to talk about that entered into Andy's situation that are non-audio related.

OTOH, my friend just got a real sweet deal on a pair of the latest VTL 450s. They should be arriving this week ;)

People in NY should check out Andy's site as there are deals one will probably never see again.
 

marty

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Marty

"... isn't it darwinism at its best to see it disappear?"...

Well, technically, not quite. As you know the big conflict in evolution centers around two hypotheses. The first is Darwinism, which is natural selection that occurs over time and is comprised of random genetic events. The second term is "intelligent design" which believes that indeed there is a "master planner" at work (but does not deny that there can be evolutionary events superimposed on this as well).

It seems to me that the demise of the hi-end, if it occurs, would be neither of these. Rather, the demise of the hi-end would be the results of very UN-intelligent design, and NOT the results of random events of any kind. It would actually be effected by a very purposeful set of actions, and not all of them with bad intent. Sure, there may be misguided calculations of what the audiophile market can bear that underlie the marketing of some obscenely expensive gear. On the other hand, some obscenely expensive gear may come to market as the exquisite vision of a particular designer that says "hey, look, all I'm trying to do is build the best there is, and I can't help it if the cost is extrememly high". Honestly, I hope that there will always be enough affluent wealth to support the hi-end as we know it, because a lot of good things can occur as the result of its existence such as the development of products whose performance can equate or nearly equate to that of a truly "hi-end" product, but can be priced as a true commodity and thus will be affordable to a far wider target audience.
 
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es347

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If I had it to do over, I would go for max bang for the buck. There's a ton of very good stuff out there for not outrageous prices and winding up with a great sounding system for minimal $$ would be very satisfying. To Frantz's point about price justification, you simply cannot. Try telling a non-audiophile buddy what you paid for your speakers. Most will feign cardiac arrest at spending $1K let alone 160X that.
 

FrantzM

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this thread is about SBS , I will try to remain within it but .. all things being equal ... It is not so much the nominal price but their progression and how much it correlates that remain the problem. Look at video or cars or computers or almost anything where performance is involved better performance for less price ... Are we there?

Back to the thread ... .. FWIW I didn't like Andy Singer store ambiance .. I was , am at home at his competitor, Lyrics's Mike Kay

I still hope that SBS makes it back .. like or hate him the Singer, man is a High End Audio pioneer
 

audioguy

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A local high end dealer of 23 years went out of business about 6 months ago. His quote: "The days of the guy walking in the store with $20,000 to spend on a 2 channel system is gone. The same guy walks in, with wife, and they spend $20,000 on 5 speakers, a sub, an SSP, a TV, and a DVD player."

My most recent experience at another high end store was very sad. I walked in specifically to hear, with an intention to purchase, a pair of Maggie 20.1's. He had 3.6's on the floor that were very poorly set up and sounded like a great $400 speaker system. He apologized and said he would call me when he got them fine tuned. I never heard from him and went in another direction.

The high end is failing because they have not adapted to the times. Different clients with different buying decisions with different objectives. The high end dealers who are surviving are doing so in the systems integration business --- whole house audio, control, etc.

Another dealer here in town who is a customer of mine said his days of building $200K home theaters is almost non-existent. The high end customer now spend $200K on home automation.
 

Kal Rubinson

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As those old timers remember, the 16th St. store is not his first storefront; he began on the second floor of a walkup tenament on E.34th. St. many years ago.
Speaking as an old-timer, his first store was that walk-up but it was on Lexington Ave. between 34th and 33rd. From there, he went to a store front operation on 33rd between Lex and 3rd.

Kal
 

Mobiusman

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In a world where lying and deception are the norm, and in high end audio, expected and routine, the fact is that we really do not know why Singer is shuttering his current location. I would share Marty's pessimism if Overature and Goodwin's High End also started to cut back. For the time being, let's just wait and see if Singer rises from the ashes, and if so, in what form. If he is gone for good, which I sincerely doubt, then it is time for a wake. However, I think that we will learn more by the form with which Andy re-emerges as an indicator of where high end audio is going in the next 5-10 years. He is no dummy and clearly has the clientele in NYC, whatever is left of them.

The real question is do you really need high end audio to get a thrill out of music? For me that answer is obvious and simple--NO. Unfortunately for high end audio, the NO will become more emphatic with each passing year because reasonably priced audio is getting so good.
 

MylesBAstor

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Well how many high end dealers such as SBS have such a huge dealership line and then to have much of that on display for audition is mind bogling

There will be a lot of lines scrambling for new dealers and sadly some may be closed out of the Manhattan market.
 

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