Solid State Confessions

[DaveyF]

My wife hears Def Tech speakers all the time. There is a pair of the BP7002 speakers in the home theater set-up. So you don't like Wison tweeters or Def Tech tweeters. At least I'm in good company with speaker brands you don't like. My back and side walls are heavily treated and I don't hear brightness as an attribute of my system. I'm not asking anyone to like my speakers as I'm not in the business of selling them or trying to convince anyone they should own what I own.

Mark, if you like your current system, that's all that matters. I never try and suggest to others what they should like in audio....That's up to their ears and taste; which most likely differs from mine. I think that maybe what you are missing in my point and also Tim's, regarding our feeling that the Def Tech's tweets are bright; is that it goes some way to explain why you are wandering as to why you are liking your Phase Linear so much. As I said before, sometimes 'brightness' can be easily mistaken for an increase in definition....When you partner two 'bright' components together, IMHO it is VERY easy to mistake the result for 'definition'. Not saying that that is what you are hearing, just a possibility that's all.

 

[fas42]

Frank-Why in the world would I want to swap in another preamp into my system?? My preamp works perfect and I don't see the point.

Sorry if my meaning didn't come across, I was suggesting merely organise for access to a friend's or other person's preamp of equivalent quality on a very temporary basis, to see if that gave you a clue as to the cause of the new state of your system. Yes, a different preamp might have a somewhat different sound, but if the quality dropped back to somewhere near the old level then it would indicate that the mods to your current unit are highly likely to be the answer ...

Frank

 

[mep]

Davey-My tweeters didn't become more bright or less bright by changing out my amps. The biggest change between the two amps is the bottom end is stronger with more definition and depending on your point of view; vocals now sound "less thick" for lack of a better term. Tube lovers might say something is missing in the vocals and SS lovers would say a layer of something has been removed and now they are Goldilocks-like. I really don’t hear much difference between sax, horns, cymbals, snare drum, bells, violins, etc.

I can pretty much play the devil's advocate on any issue as long as I understand both sides of the coin. That would certainly hold true for making a case for why tube amps are a bad idea in 2011 (and we could certainly go back in time). Tube amps are never going to control woofers like a SS amp. They simply don’t have the dampening factors that SS amps have. This also means that SS amps will have a cleaner bass response than tube amps. The output impedance of tube amps can impact the frequency response of your speakers depending on the impedance curve of your speakers. SS amps also have less distortion than tube amps.

You can never perfectly match a pair of output tubes (let alone 4, 6, or 8 per channel), and even if you could (and you can’t), they would never stay exactly matched as they age anyway. Single-ended amps that use only one output tube don’t have this issue, but then you have far less output power at any sane B+ plate voltage. And with SE amps you have all sorts of other issues to deal with.

And let’s not even mention the care and feeding of tube amps (but I will). Output tubes are fairly expensive. The three GL KT-88 tubes I just bought from Upscale Audio cost me $190 with shipping. To re-tube all 12 of the tubes is around $800.00. Checking the bias regularly is very important with 6 tubes per channel and one bias pot per bank of 3 tubes. After about 2000 hours with a set of output tubes, you better start saying some prayers because it’s like driving around on a set of “may-pop” tires.

Some tube amps are a breeze to bias. I can bias a pair of Quicksilver V4 amps in under two minutes for both amps. To flip the Jadis on its side and remove the bottom plate screws and set the bottom plate off to the side takes me 5 minutes. I could go on and on, but from start to finish on the Jadis, it takes at least 30 minutes to bias the Jadis. Try biasing an ARC VT-100 MKII amp. That will be a couple hour job from start to finish and you better own a pair of meters. And don’t try and buy a replacement set of tubes for an ARC VT-100-anything from Upscale Audio because Kevin refuses to sell tubes for this amp because of how wacky the bias scheme is.

Of course, there are some tube amps that have auto-bias and you don’t have to worry about your output tubes until they blow up. Some tube amps are designed to take out a cathode resistor when the output tube blows up (think ARC), so unless you are handy with a soldering iron, this means your amp is going back to the dealer or manufacturer. Other amps take out a fuse when an output tube blows and you just have to replace a fuse and the output tube. But chances are you will have to buy more than one tube because you won’t have a tube that will match the one that blew.

I think I just talked myself into selling my Jadis.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

The biggest change between the two amps is the bottom end is stronger with more definition and depending on your point of view; vocals now sound "less thick" for lack of a better term.

Mark, this is a pretty good description of the differences I hear between tube and solid state, but I hear that lack of "thickness" or clarity and openness, throughout the midrange. I'd guess this is a big part of what you're hearing, in the lower mids, that sounds like a stronger, more defined low end. It's the thing I like best about good solid state, but I also understand why people love the tube sound. Wherever you come down in the end there will be a lot of goodness there.

By the way, I just want to make sure I'm clear that I did not mean to disparage your Def Techs. Definitive Technology is one of the few companies out there that builds really good-sounding speakers from entry level to high end, with a distinct family sound throughout the range. They punch way above their weight from the little $500 bookshelves to their floorstanders, where they do a big, enveloping soundstage even in their more modest efforts. They have a slavish devotion to making the most of their key design elements; passive radiators, integral powered subs and bipolar mids and trebles, and making them work together beautifully. Good stuff from a voodoo-free zone. I have nothing but respect for them as a company. That they sound relatively bright to me takes nothing away from that.

Tim

 

[FrantzM]

<snip>
I think I just talked myself into selling my Jadis.

mep

It has been suggested in this interesting thread to use an all SS system and decide... My personal opinion is that SS are as good as tubes these days when it comes to present a realistic portrayal of music. . I moved from tubes fanatic to SS pragmatic when I auditioned the Burmester and I have not regretted it. I am not going back to tubes Music is what matters to me not the rituals .. Same . i will not go back to CD transport or LP or Tapes .. that's me ..
Now back to you ...
You are more than surprised by what an old SS can do .. and it is unsettling. I, personally would have not have thought that the old Phase Linear would do that in this context of a Defy 7 but it did and you are faced with an SS decision because from the tone of it you are puzzled enough to consider SS ... There is nothing wrong with that ... Take your time, get some serious gear and audition some SS systems ... There are some interesting brands out there and some of them can surprise you by their musicality and truthfullness to the sound of the real thing ... I became convinced by Burmnster when i heard hiow well they reproduced the sound of piano and violins through various speakers, then the Cello and finally the Human voice where the whole line seems to be in another dimension ... Oh and their bass is amongst the best I have heard .. They remain MY favorite SS brand .. Then there are many others .. Some relatively unheralded in these USA shores :
Plinius
Edge (absolutely superb electronics amongst the 5 best SS I have heard)
Electrocompaniet
Odyssey ... This brand is rarely discussed but seem to be essentially the same as the German Symphonic Line electronics... These were good, very good, excellent ... and so affordable (by almost any standard) to give anyone pause about their worth .. Oh no don't let their price stop you .. They will (to use the audiophile vernacular) "blow away" amps costing > 50 (no typo) times more
Bryston .. I looove their top of the line amps.. big beasts .. I have not heard its smaller brothers but if they are cut from the same sonic cloth , then we are talking about winners here ..
Spectral .. Sane price : Superlative sound ... as good as the much more expensive SS (I think their DMA 200 or was it 260 S are better than the Boulder monos I heard in, admittedly, a different system)

There are many more but these jumped to me at moment ... I recently heard some of these so ...

 

[mep]

Frantz-I would love to hear some Burmester gear, but I can't play in those august leagues. I am contemplating my next move. I appreciate all of your tips.

Mark

 

[tony ky ma]

about biasing for tube amp

Mark - I know quite well of bad feeling in biasing heavy tube amp ( I did service for friend's Hi Fi shop) as well as getting old, so when I designed my own amp, I must make the adjustment from top plate, and the one of the reason I like the positive bias tube amp is no need protection for the power tube because if bias fail bias voltage will turn to 0 then current of the tube will decrease too, but in negative bias amp (300B 6550 EL34 6L6 etc) they go to the opposite way, need fuse or bias check all the time, I use a plug and socket ( for DC power supply) to place to the power tube's cathode for checking the current, very convenience, but I don't have to check often it so steady after first set

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Frantz-I would love to hear some Burmester gear, but I can't play in those august leagues.

Mark

I don't think you're going to have to. Remember, the bottom end is covered. You just have to drive the mids and highs of some pretty sensitive speakers. I'll bet you'd get great results from one of these...

Or one of these...

Or even one of these...

My God, you're thinking, he's showing me midfi integrated amps. Others will come along soon to tell you they are nowhere in the same league as....whatever. They don't have to be in any league, they just have to be up to the task, and I think every one of them is. Hey, you just found goodness in an old upper midfi amp. You're mind is opened up. Feed it. Use that Phase Linear as your benchmark and bring in a few contenders (with a liberal return policy) and see what they'll do. You might be surprised. You might find yourself with a few grand to spend on jazz records.

Tim

 

[microstrip]

(...) I think I just talked myself into selling my Jadis.

One of the reasons there are always very good deals on the used tube market is just that after an hot period or a tube failure audiophiles get "valvulitis nervosa" and change their amplifiers to SS. A friend of mine who loved my Audio Research D70 told me he could never own tubes, as he would always be thinking that the bias was incorrect or replacing tubes fearing premature wear .

I also went through it several times, but after a period of a few months always returned to tubes. The longest period was using a cj premier 350 with an ART preamplifier. Electrocompaniet, Krell and Mark Levinson also sounded great, but as my preference always returned to tubes, they soon became expensive mistakes ...

Happily others think differently - I bought my VTL MB 750s used at audiogon!

BTW, when traveling in Spain people are supposed to carry spares of car lights with them. I learned the following trick from them - always keep a complete set of spare tubes. Like this life will not look so terrible after a tube break!

 

[garylkoh]

And I'll even throw in this one:

My long-term preamp reference.

 

[fas42]

vocals now sound "less thick" for lack of a better term

To echo Tim, that is exactly the sort of measure I would use to say that the system is producing less audible distortion, implying that the Phase Linear is doing a "better" job at the moment. The achievable ideal is that vocals never sound "thick", at any time, on any recording ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

And I'll even throw in this one:

My long-term preamp reference.

What is it, Gary?

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Wait a minute...is that an Adcom? Why Gary, have you been slumming in the upper reaches of midfi town?

Tim

 

[garylkoh]

Wait a minute...is that an Adcom? Why Gary, have you been slumming in the upper reaches of midfi town?

Tim

Yep, a GFP-750. John Curl design. Great piece of gear even today.

Tim, if you see what I'm listening to right now, you'd think that the Adcom was above my station

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Yep, a GFP-750. John Curl design. Great piece of gear even today.

Tim, if you see what I'm listening to right now, you'd think that the Adcom was above my station

Do tell!

I saw a 750 for sale online a couple of years ago for about $800, if memory serves. Linkwitz recommends Adcom amps to power his Orions. If they're good enough for Sigfried, they're good enough for anybody.

Tim

 

[fas42]

Tim, if you see what I'm listening to right now, you'd think that the Adcom was above my station

Maybe, just maybe, it's an all in one DVD HT system ...

Frank

 

[mep]

Yep, a GFP-750. John Curl design. Great piece of gear even today.

Tim, if you see what I'm listening to right now, you'd think that the Adcom was above my station

I recognized that Adcom preamp right away, I just didn't know it was a John Curl design. John is an awesome desginer which is evident by how many companies use his design services.

 

[garylkoh]

A meagre system Oliver Twist would be proud of - EMU-0404 directly driving a DIY GainClone and Genesis Genre II loudspeakers. Music far, far better than it has any right to sound.

 

[mep]

A meagre system Oliver Twist would be proud of - EMU-0404 directly driving a DIY GainClone and Genesis Genre II loudspeakers. Music far, far better than it has any right to sound.

Why Gary, you have the same D/A converter I have. Prior to Foobar, I was beginning to think it wasn't very good. Now I know better. However, do you know if it is asynchronous or synchronous USB?

 

[mep]

One of the reasons there are always very good deals on the used tube market is just that after an hot period or a tube failure audiophiles get "valvulitis nervosa" and change their amplifiers to SS. A friend of mine who loved my Audio Research D70 told me he could never own tubes, as he would always be thinking that the bias was incorrect or replacing tubes fearing premature wear .

I also went through it several times, but after a period of a few months always returned to tubes. The longest period was using a cj premier 350 with an ART preamplifier. Electrocompaniet, Krell and Mark Levinson also sounded great, but as my preference always returned to tubes, they soon became expensive mistakes ...

Happily others think differently - I bought my VTL MB 750s used at audiogon!

BTW, when traveling in Spain people are supposed to carry spares of car lights with them. I learned the following trick from them - always keep a complete set of spare tubes. Like this life will not look so terrible after a tube break!

Microstrip-I too have been down the path of selling my tube amps only to return to them. I am getting fed-up with the set-up though. And if you have an amp that doesn't damage itself when a tube blows up, then all you need to do is like you say, shell out the cash for another tube set. Otherwise, you need to keep spare fuses and/or cathode resistors laying around. You also need to be able to use a DVM or have a milliamp meter.

And one other thing, because I like to let any tube amp warm up for an hour before I listen to it, I rarely ever listen to music through the week on my he-man rig. By the time I get home from work, walk the dogs, help prep or cook dinner, watch the evening news, I just don't have time to do much listening before I go to bed. I hate to waste "power on" time with my output tubes if I can't listen for a good while. With a SS amp, I usually never turn them off and thus they are always ready to go and I can listen for an hour or two every night.