Solid State Confessions

[mep]

Mark, you have a pair of big Def Techs, right? That's an aluminum tweeter with a silk surround, a hybrid of sorts. I've heard a whole lot of Def Techs from the tiny to the mammoth. That tweeter, while pretty smooth for aluminum, is a bit bright. It may like your tube amps better, but your midrange drivers, and most of the "music range," may really be benefitting from the speed and damping of the big SS amp. Just a guess. Do you have EQ of any kind in the system? If you do, while you're still using the SS amp, fool around with a slight dip, 3 - 6 db, at around 2k - 5K. You may get ultra sweet, sell your tube amps and take a cruise.

Or not.

Tim

Tim-They are the big Def Techs and I don't find the tweeter to be bright regardless of the amp I'm using. And no, I don't have any equalizers nor do I feel the need for one.

 

[mep]

I just want to clarify something here. I'm not saying that the Phase Linear 400 Series Two amp is better than my Jadis. What I'm trying to convey is the damn thing sounds shockingly good and I'm more than a little surprised. This amp was designed and built during the time when SS amps didn't sound all that good. It's not a mega-expensive amp that comes with lots of audiophile creds. Maybe if the Pass Labs X-250 had a higher input impedance I would still own it and have never bought the Defy 7 MKII. I want to continue to listen to the Phase Linear and come to grips with its performance. Let there be no doubt that the bottom end is better. It's a little funny that the amp feeds the input to the Def Tech sub amp and changing to SS gives a big boost in sound quaility to the bass from the Def Techs. This whole exercise is leading me to think about owning another SS amp that will work well with my 5.1 preamp.

 

[FrantzM]

Microstrip-Very interesting. I called Pass Labs and asked them if it was going to be a problem driving their amp with my 5.1 and they said no. It obviously was a poor match which would explain lots of things.

It would be interesting to revisit however the X-05 .. Many things have changed (I suppose) in your system ... I must also say that I appreciate your opening this very thread... It shows a degree of humility and intellectual honesty ...This can only advance your search toward better reproduction in your home environment... Embrace the experience.

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

It can be more than semantics - if the amplifier is current limited it will show in performance. With speakers having low impedance, many times you get limited before the theoretical voltage clipping. Surely you can consider this under the definition of "useful voltage swing" but is almost impossible to measure when playing music.

And I would consider that under the definition of headroom. Semantics. Perhaps I'm the one who has the terms wrong, but to me, when you hit the headroom roof, you hit the limits of the amp, regardless of what the theoretical limits are.

Tim

 

[fas42]

This is semantics, Frank. I would say that if the amp is "stressed" it has exceeded its useful voltage swing, and its headroom. Therefore we agree on everything except, perhaps, the definition of headroom.

Tim

When I use the word stress I mean in the sense of there being clearly obvious distortion appearing, but this distortion is not in the usual sense. The "difficult" CD I mentioned is that I have brought up many times before, a compilation of Status Quo hits. Very full, classic studio sound, with guitars driving hard continuously; the key is the drumming, on many tracks the crash cymbals are struck all the way through the song, a bad power amp doesn't even start to get the shimmer of these cymbals to emerge from the mix. A reasonable one will be able to do it at very low volume settings, but will give up as the volume approaches anything reasonable, the high frequency detail just disappears as the level goes up, and the sound goes dull.

In other words, the distortion, the lack of "true" headroom, is that the high frequency component stops being accurate at levels well before the clipping point is reached. So "lack of headroom" is shown by the sound dulling down rather than becoming shrieky ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Tim-They are the big Def Techs and I don't find the tweeter to be bright regardless of the amp I'm using. And no, I don't have any equalizers nor do I feel the need for one.

Not, then. I find the tweeter to be bright. YMMV.

Tim

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Frank, what is the title of this Status Quo compilation?

Tim

 

[RogerD]

I just want to clarify something here. I'm not saying that the Phase Linear 400 Series Two amp is better than my Jadis. What I'm trying to convey is the damn thing sounds shockingly good and I'm more than a little surprised. This amp was designed and built during the time when SS amps didn't sound all that good. It's not a mega-expensive amp that comes with lots of audiophile creds. Maybe if the Pass Labs X-250 had a higher input impedance I would still own it and have never bought the Defy 7 MKII. I want to continue to listen to the Phase Linear and come to grips with its performance. Let there be no doubt that the bottom end is better. It's a little funny that the amp feeds the input to the Def Tech sub amp and changing to SS gives a big boost in sound quaility to the bass from the Def Techs. This whole exercise is leading me to think about owning another SS amp that will work well with my 5.1 preamp.

Mark,

The Phase Linear has been recapped probably with better quality caps than the originals. No matter what some say, in my experience a recap done right can change and improve the sound quality from the original. I think others have mentioned a possible synergy created,that is possible as the grounding scheme of the PL might be a better match with your preamp.

 

[mep]

Not, then. I find the tweeter to be bright. YMMV.

Tim

Obviously my mileage does vary. I used to design and build speakers and my last pair was a four piece unit that consisted of a pair of 1/4 wavelength transmisson line subs with a two-way speaker that was also loaded via 1/4 wavelength transmission line for the woofer. All of the drivers in the main speakers were top of the line SEAS speakers. I had over $600 invested in the crossover parts. Taken as a whole, if these speakers would have been professionaly finished, they would have retailed for at least $10K. My brother bought a pair of the Def Tech BP7000SC speakers (the same ones I now have) and I drove to Louisville to give them a listen. I honestly expected to pick them apart and not like them. His front end source was R2R feeding a Counterpoint SA-5.1 which fed a pair of the Counterpoint Natural Progression mono-block amps. I honestly couldn't find anything to fault with the sound and I was shocked. You talk about expectation bias-I had one. I expected to find lots of things wrong with these speakers and go home smugly to mine. Instead, I went home and sold my speakers and bought a pair of the Def Techs. Most people that hear Def Techs (and not everyone even carries the top of the line BP7000SC) hear them in stores that are using them with a receiver to play back DVDs on a home theater system. Few get a chance to hear them with really good electronics. I'm allergic to bright tweeters and I don't find these to be bright.

 

[fas42]

Status Quo, 12 Gold Bars, on Vertigo 800 062-2, the track "Caroline" on it is as good as any. A very good test CD for a number of reasons: a very congested sound on anything less than a well sorted out system, the ride cymbals are used almostly continually on most of the tracks making it very easy to pick where the high frequency performance of your system is at. If someone says they are badly recorded, it means that their system is not up to scratch! Another good aspect is that the vocals are well recorded, in a nicely defined separate acoustic, and as one's system improves the vocals show off a soft sweetness, have almost an endearing quality to them.

Status Quo!! Yes, Status Quo ...

Frank

 

[fas42]

Mark, I would suggest swapping in another preamp, of nominal equivalent quality, that is in standard form and has a conventional pot into your setup and see what difference that makes to your perception of the sound.

To me, the killer advantage of the Def Tech speakers is that they have inbuilt amps doing all the bass work; this reduces enormously the stress on the amp and its power supply, which is also a key part of the Phase Linear doing well ...

Frank

 

[Phelonious Ponk]

Obviously my mileage does vary. I used to design and build speakers and my last pair was a four piece unit that consisted of a pair of 1/4 wavelength transmisson line subs with a two-way speaker that was also loaded via 1/4 wavelength transmission line for the woofer. All of the drivers in the main speakers were top of the line SEAS speakers. I had over $600 invested in the crossover parts. Taken as a whole, if these speakers would have been professionaly finished, they would have retailed for at least $10K. My brother bought a pair of the Def Tech BP7000SC speakers (the same ones I now have) and I drove to Louisville to give them a listen. I honestly expected to pick them apart and not like them. His front end source was R2R feeding a Counterpoint SA-5.1 which fed a pair of the Counterpoint Natural Progression mono-block amps. I honestly couldn't find anything to fault with the sound and I was shocked. You talk about expectation bias-I had one. I expected to find lots of things wrong with these speakers and go home smugly to mine. Instead, I went home and sold my speakers and bought a pair of the Def Techs. Most people that hear Def Techs (and not everyone even carries the top of the line BP7000SC) hear them in stores that are using them with a receiver to play back DVDs on a home theater system. Few get a chance to hear them with really good electronics. I'm allergic to bright tweeters and I don't find these to be bright.

Don't get me wrong, I like them. I think even small, inexpensive Def Techs punch way above their weight. But compared to the silk domes, electrostats and ribbons I get to compare them to, they sound bright to me. Not necessarily a bad thing, just an observation. I also agree with Frank's observation about taking the weight of the bass off the amps. It's a good thing. Even makes them work well with decent AV receivers.

Tim

 

[DaveyF]

Have to agree with Tim, all of the Def Techs I have heard sound too bright to my ears. As I stated before, when I was using speakers with Titanium domes, well everything seemed a-ok; when I switched to silk domes, then it became obvious as to how much the metal dome 'rang' and was generally bright. IMHO, the 'ringing' and general brightness can easily fool one into thinking the speaker is producing a more 'defined' sound. One of my personal 'bugaboos' with Wilson speakers is that they still use the dreaded 'Focal sourced' titanium dome, which again IMHO, is a very nasty ragged sounding driver.(Hey, that's my opinion and I'm sticking by it..) Yesterday, my sister-in-law came over and listened to my system, she is used to Wilson Watt/Pup 8's as my brother owns these. It took her all of thirty seconds to tell me that she hears how much smoother and more at ease/realistic my speakers sound. ( she isn't an a'phile, so doesn't know the vernacular )
Mark, I think if you have a chance, get your wife/significant other or any other lady to listen to your speakers/system, they will tell you in no time if the high-frequencies are bothering them.

 

[JackD201]

Make sure the "wife/significant other or any other lady" are in a good mood. I'll take a bright tweeter to an angry, chatty woman 100% of the time. YMMV.

 

[DaveyF]

Jack, LOL, that's a good point

 

[microstrip]

Mep,

As I have been a DIY man I was able to find some information about the circuit of your Counterpoint preamplifier. The output stage seems to be just a parallel double 6922 triode with a 10 kohm resistor load coupled through a capacitor. The quality of the preamplifier is due mainly to the tube regulated power supply and choice of components. But the coupling of the output of the preamplifier to the amplifier is critical as the output impedance is not low.

 

[mep]

Have to agree with Tim, all of the Def Techs I have heard sound too bright to my ears. As I stated before, when I was using speakers with Titanium domes, well everything seemed a-ok; when I switched to silk domes, then it became obvious as to how much the metal dome 'rang' and was generally bright. IMHO, the 'ringing' and general brightness can easily fool one into thinking the speaker is producing a more 'defined' sound. One of my personal 'bugaboos' with Wilson speakers is that they still use the dreaded 'Focal sourced' titanium dome, which again IMHO, is a very nasty ragged sounding driver.(Hey, that's my opinion and I'm sticking by it..) Yesterday, my sister-in-law came over and listened to my system, she is used to Wilson Watt/Pup 8's as my brother owns these. It took her all of thirty seconds to tell me that she hears how much smoother and more at ease/realistic my speakers sound. ( she isn't an a'phile, so doesn't know the vernacular )
Mark, I think if you have a chance, get your wife/significant other or any other lady to listen to your speakers/system, they will tell you in no time if the high-frequencies are bothering them.

My wife hears Def Tech speakers all the time. There is a pair of the BP7002 speakers in the home theater set-up. So you don't like Wison tweeters or Def Tech tweeters. At least I'm in good company with speaker brands you don't like. My back and side walls are heavily treated and I don't hear brightness as an attribute of my system. I'm not asking anyone to like my speakers as I'm not in the business of selling them or trying to convince anyone they should own what I own.

 

[mep]

Make sure the "wife/significant other or any other lady" are in a good mood. I'll take a bright tweeter to an angry, chatty woman 100% of the time. YMMV.

Even when they aren't angry, they still are usually chatty.

 

[mep]

Mark, I would suggest swapping in another preamp, of nominal equivalent quality, that is in standard form and has a conventional pot into your setup and see what difference that makes to your perception of the sound.

To me, the killer advantage of the Def Tech speakers is that they have inbuilt amps doing all the bass work; this reduces enormously the stress on the amp and its power supply, which is also a key part of the Phase Linear doing well ...

Frank

Frank-Why in the world would I want to swap in another preamp into my system?? My preamp works perfect and I don't see the point.

 

[mep]

Don't get me wrong, I like them. I think even small, inexpensive Def Techs punch way above their weight. But compared to the silk domes, electrostats and ribbons I get to compare them to, they sound bright to me. Not necessarily a bad thing, just an observation. I also agree with Frank's observation about taking the weight of the bass off the amps. It's a good thing. Even makes them work well with decent AV receivers.

Tim

Tim-I owned a pair of ML Aerius speakers for many years so I'm familiar with the sound of stats in relation to the sound of cones and domes. If somebody tells me that the Def Tech tweeters sound bright, I would wonder if it is the famous expectation bias of expecting an aluminum tweeter to be bright and/or I would wonder how well was the room treated and what electronics were being used to drive them. Again, I'm not trying to sell them to anyone. Out of all the reviews of the Def Techs, I don't remember anyone commenting on tweeter brightness, but then I might have missed that if they did. All I can say is that in my system, I don't find them to be bright.