Ron's Speaker, Turntable, Power and Room Treatment Upgrades

[Pb Blimp]

Well the back to back wasn't with the IQ statements, but I've listened to the IQ multiple times including one private session. The non-IQ was better with M3's, than the IQ with VR55's - although the VR55 do bass a bit better since they're active & the M3 require being forced into bass. The same judgment remains. The only reason I'd change that opinion is if all the DAC's with them were the problem. That would be Aqua Formula, MSB Select, MSB Reference, and MSB Signature. The VAC preamp was a problem with the IQ setup, but the issues would fade away by cranking it to unpleasant volumes so you could still get the real jist.

If I were to give a difference between IQ/non it seems like the IQ goes for a more refined sound, but I'd go for the non since it sounds more life sized. Perhaps the IQ has a hair more dynamics? That would be harder to say... Overall I don't think either excel in that manner, but may be more a result of complications with texture quality.

This whole thing is a bit of a mess. You start with negative comments about a world renowned amp predicated on an admitted problem with the preamp and set-up. Further, your comments completely contradict Lief's post (Albert's top guy) in which he indicates the amps are "untouchable" based on an audition you did using Albert's speakers. Something just ain't right about that.....

 

[Mike Lavigne]

This whole thing is a bit of a mess. You start with negative comments about a world renowned amp predicated on an admitted problem with the preamp and set-up. Further, your comments completely contradict Lief's post (Albert's top guy) in which he indicates the amps are "untouchable" based on an audition you did using Albert's speakers. Something just ain't right about that.....

hey, that amp is in good company. Folsom also dissed my dart mono's when he brought his own prototype amp over to my room. I was not thrilled about it. allowing him to bring his amps to my room on the pretense of his own research, then him writing that (which, by the way, I did not remotely agree with....but that is another story).

I think his amp designing maybe makes his views on other amps not quite as objective as it might be. he is not just another end user, he has his own amp design he believes in. a perfectly natural way to react when your personal product and beliefs are involved. we see it all the time and it's part of how things go. some guys are dealers for products and we see that.

but understanding it does not make it right.

 

[Ron Resnick]

PS: With 89 db sensitivity I might have these on the list:

http://www.vac-amps.com/productPages/Statement450_IQ.html

Thank you, microstrip and 853guy! I am aware of those driver and speaker differences. (I knew that comparison was going to attract some critical commentary!)

Thank you, Paul!

The big VACs are Leif’s (of Von Schweikert Audio) strong recommendation as well!

 

[Ron Resnick]

As far as tube amps go I think the VAC 450 iQ's are untouchable but that just my opinion

There we go!

Thank you, Leif!

 

[Ron Resnick]

Well the back to back wasn't with the IQ statements, but I've listened to the IQ multiple times including one private session. The non-IQ was better with M3's, than the IQ with VR55's - although the VR55 do bass a bit better since they're active & the M3 require being forced into bass. The same judgment remains. The only reason I'd change that opinion is if all the DAC's with them were the problem. That would be Aqua Formula, MSB Select, MSB Reference, and MSB Signature. The VAC preamp was a problem with the IQ setup, but the issues would fade away by cranking it to unpleasant volumes so you could still get the real jist.

If I were to give a difference between IQ/non it seems like the IQ goes for a more refined sound, but I'd go for the non since it sounds more life sized. Perhaps the IQ has a hair more dynamics? That would be harder to say... Overall I don't think either excel in that manner, but may be more a result of complications with texture quality.

I don’t understand that at all, Folsom. The 450 iQs have sounded amazing to me every time I’ve heard them. Those amplifiers are an integral part of the giant traveling VSA Ultra 11 system, which many people have reported is the best system they’ve ever heard at a show in their lives.

I feel like I have high-power, push-pull covered with my current VTLs. However, I do now believe that my MB-750s, without comprehensive capacitor upgrades, are outdated sonically. I would take the ARC 750s or the VAC 450s over my now-vintage VTLs in a New York minute. This is why I have put the VTLs up for sale on Audiogon.

I am just walking uphill to see if I can solve my amplifier equation with a high-power SET (which I view as both a sonic and an intellectual challenge).

 

[Pb Blimp]

hey, that amp is in good company. Folsom also dissed my dart mono's when he brought his own prototype amp over to my room. I was not thrilled about it. allowing him to bring his amps to my room on the pretense of his own research, then him writing that (which, by the way, I did not remotely agree with....but that is another story).

I think his amp designing maybe makes his views on other amps not quite as objective as it might be. he is not just another end user, he has his own amp design he believes in. a perfectly natural way to react when your personal product and beliefs are involved. we see it all the time and it's part of how things go. some guys are dealers for products and we see that.

but understanding it does not make it right.

Ahh, thanks Mike; that explains a lot.

 

[Folsom]

Pb, I said the issue with the preamp went away with volume. It was a VAC preamp, nothing broken. It sounded bad at low volumes, so much so that when I requested a wav file be played, the showman turned it to a hotter recording because people were turning around at the door. But later it was realized if the volume would have just been up it would have sounded good.

Mike, once again I never, EVER mentioned the fact I brought my amp to your house. You did. All I said was the darts only particular downside I heard was that the small changes in volume where hard to read - they did not present themselves well. So you have already read that, and zero'd in on that. To point out if you simply left that out, you'd notice I was giving the whole experience absolute top notch regard, claiming you have an absolute world class experience. Instead, a long time latef you bring this up again. Since you can't let it go, I will ask, whg can't you accept honest comments on amplifiers you didnt design? From the start of your expression of unease you have taken it very personally, and there isnt a good reason. I think of your opinions as valued information. SO when you made a comment about my amplifier, I didnt get all up in arms about despite being the designer, what's the point? It was a legit comment, and I could not explain why exactly my amp had the characteristic that it had never had before. Instead of getting upset, I developed a product to help correct what I thought the potential problem was, and it turned out so good it is in another members stereo - validated by yet another person whom was around. My point being is I feel like I am being cordial and grateful to experience such a good time at your oasis of sound, but you feel the need to hold onto something that never was. And that is after I have expressed numerous times that I am sorry that you are upset and I wish to remain audio pals, even though I that I am essentially catering to some desire to be mad at some me as though you designed the 458's and they are so infallable that I am simply spitting malicious fluff.

The truth is lately I was feeling as though whatever feelings had existed, had passed. I wanted to help you find a very simple solution to your ML3 SE issue (and know you own a Fluke, I have one too). That is, free help from an audio designer that understands these things, out of my own time. And even more so I was thinking about if there were a meeting at your place, it would be a treat to hear the new amps. Clearly that is not mutual... Oh well, c'est la vie.

 

[Folsom]

I don’t understand that at all, Folsom. The 450 iQs have sounded amazing to me every time I’ve heard them. Those amplifiers are an integral part of the giant traveling VSA Ultra 11 system, which many people have reported is the best system they’ve ever heard at a show in their lives.

I am not everyone, Ron. In fact I am known to be hard to please, in many aspects of life. The very reason I have held off on most exposure comercially is because of disatisfaction with potential pairings from other manufacturers - I need to make my own enitre line, or at least almost everything, before I show up at a show with a room. I am that dude. In fact if I can remember, the next time we chat I will tell you an anecdote about a funny moment I experienced, directly transposed from my nature.

You may notice I still said that the VAC's are good, but they could be better to win my total approval. If the VSA 11 sound so amazing with them, who only knows how boss they could get with something even better. Again, not that I havent almost shouted it from roof tops, I am a big fan of some work from Leif, so I do have to imagine very good things are possible. But my greater point is that I believe there are better ways to spend your money. Btw I would say I prefer Keith's ARC amp over VAC. It does a better job of expressing some things that are too important for me to forgo. I am human, and can live with a stereo that has certain faults, but I pick which ones work and dont work as forms of compromise. And were I about to drop $40k, you best believe my list of compromises would be short - I am paying you the same respect I give myself with my unfiltered comments on choice.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Pb, I said the issue with the preamp went away with volume. It was a VAC preamp, nothing broken. It sounded bad at low volumes, so much so that when I requested a wav file be played, the showman turned it to a hotter recording because people were turning around at the door. But later it was realized if the volume would have just been up it would have sounded good.

Mike, once again I never, EVER mentioned the fact I brought my amp to your house. You did. All I said was the darts only particular downside I heard was that the small changes in volume where hard to read - they did not present themselves well. So you have already read that, and zero'd in on that. To point out if you simply left that out, you'd notice I was giving the whole experience absolute top notch regard, claiming you have an absolute world class experience. Instead, a long time latef you bring this up again. Since you can't let it go, I will ask, whg can't you accept honest comments on amplifiers you didnt design? From the start of your expression of unease you have taken it very personally, and there isnt a good reason. I think of your opinions as valued information. SO when you made a comment about my amplifier, I didnt get all up in arms about despite being the designer, what's the point? It was a legit comment, and I could not explain why exactly my amp had the characteristic that it had never had before. Instead of getting upset, I developed a product to help correct what I thought the potential problem was, and it turned out so good it is in another members stereo - validated by yet another person whom was around. My point being is I feel like I am being cordial and grateful to experience such a good time at your oasis of sound, but you feel the need to hold onto something that never was. And that is after I have expressed numerous times that I am sorry that you are upset and I wish to remain audio pals, even though I that I am essentially catering to some desire to be mad at some me as though you designed the 458's and they are so infallable that I am simply spitting malicious fluff.

The truth is lately I was feeling as though whatever feelings had existed, had passed. I wanted to help you find a very simple solution to your ML3 SE issue (and know you own a Fluke, I have one too). That is, free help from an audio designer that understands these things, out of my own time. And even more so I was thinking about if there were a meeting at your place, it would be a treat to hear the new amps. Clearly that is not mutual... Oh well, c'est la vie.

i think I've said all i need to say about this. maybe think about putting something in your signature explaining you have designed an amplifier and you are passionate about it. it will provide a context for your comments. eliminate (intended or not intended) hidden agendas. or maybe not......i could be dead wrong and not being fair.

 

[Folsom]

i think I've said all i need to say about this. maybe think about putting something in your signature explaining you have designed an amplifier and you are passionate about it. it will provide a context for your comments. eliminate (intended or not intended) hidden agendas. or maybe not......i could be dead wrong and not being fair.

Mike, I understand that you are probably on guard a bit for people trying to yank your chain or bug you a lot, because you can afford to buy some nice gear. I specifically don't post about my non-commercialized products because I don't feel it is very tasteful to tromp around telling everyone to buy your gear, like you are telling them what to do. And because they are non-commercialized so far, I don't outwardly offer and suggest them beyond extremely tactful particular situations where I feel it is worth bringing up in order to fit a particular situation - so, almost never, like probably less than twice. The only thing I have really offered is subwoofer mods, which I do more for personal satisfaction and good will - it's not a continuous thing and would never pay the bills (I don't sell any sub gear, no kick-backs either).

To date Folsom (there is another guy, not a social posting type) has 4 different amplifiers that are credible for being considered complete, probably around a dozen that were not meant to be, at least one preamp, 6 or more power conditioners, a unique device that makes SE interconnects as good at noise rejection as balanced w/ ground isolation, and numerous handfuls of specialized circuits that can be applied to different things (amps, DACs, etc). We get contacted to do some design work, despite not having a website. And as part of a mission statement we support DIY and offer some PCBs for amplifiers & power supplies that are unique and insane for value as they - and I say this proudly - sound better than a plethora of commercial offerings. That is how the DIY coinciding goal works, to let people understand the value of their own labor and see that they can have something that is truly good, if they are willing to put in the work.

When I offer my thoughts on different gear, they are honest thoughts. I will not be comparing them to my own stuff publicly in an effort to slander gear, driving people into purchasing anything from me. Any comments I make are simply as a friend, contributing to the forum. In the future when I do have something people can buy, I will probably post less because I don't wish to create battles between manufactures - but I will answer any questions asked of me which may include opinions on gear including mine.

And to be as transparent as possible, I can tell you that I tried to console one member on making a power conditioner, whom was already getting into it. I told him it is going to start costing a lot, because from experience I know how FAST the parts can add up. He thought I meant I was going to charge him(nope), and literally went bananas all over the forum slandering me. I believe he has since moved on (maybe not willfully) from WBF; and now you know the most secret of agendas I have had.

Ron, apologies for temporarily hi-jacking your thread to make things clear. I wish I had more suggestions for choosing amplifiers beyond that I like the ARC amps compared to others I have some experience with. Well, I did suggest one possibility of having an amp made by a special guru, that for the price would never be a bad investment - as it's usable in secondary system and costs very little. I have never been set on tube-only amplifiers. What would I be thinking about? Thrax is without a doubt a company with multiple amplifiers I'd be looking into. The hybrid I have heard and thought was impressive, with lots of potential. But I didn't get in enough variables to be 100% sold. They do have an all-tube amp that perhaps I can vote for being in the running, based on my impressions of the hybrid. But it is at 70w, the minimum your speakers could work with I suspect.

 

[Pb Blimp]

Mike, I understand that you are probably on guard a bit for people trying to yank your chain or bug you a lot, because you can afford to buy some nice gear. I specifically don't post about my non-commercialized products because I don't feel it is very tasteful to tromp around telling everyone to buy your gear, like you are telling them what to do. And because they are non-commercialized so far, I don't outwardly offer and suggest them beyond extremely tactful particular situations where I feel it is worth bringing up in order to fit a particular situation - so, almost never, like probably less than twice. The only thing I have really offered is subwoofer mods, which I do more for personal satisfaction and good will - it's not a continuous thing and would never pay the bills (I don't sell any sub gear, no kick-backs either).

To date Folsom (there is another guy, not a social posting type) has 4 different amplifiers that are credible for being considered complete, probably around a dozen that were not meant to be, at least one preamp, 6 or more power conditioners, a unique device that makes SE interconnects as good at noise rejection as balanced w/ ground isolation, and numerous handfuls of specialized circuits that can be applied to different things (amps, DACs, etc). We get contacted to do some design work, despite not having a website. And as part of a mission statement we support DIY and offer some PCBs for amplifiers & power supplies that are unique and insane for value as they - and I say this proudly - sound better than a plethora of commercial offerings. That is how the DIY coinciding goal works, to let people understand the value of their own labor and see that they can have something that is truly good, if they are willing to put in the work.

When I offer my thoughts on different gear, they are honest thoughts. I will not be comparing them to my own stuff publicly in an effort to slander gear, driving people into purchasing anything from me. Any comments I make are simply as a friend, contributing to the forum. In the future when I do have something people can buy, I will probably post less because I don't wish to create battles between manufactures - but I will answer any questions asked of me which may include opinions on gear including mine.

And to be as transparent as possible, I can tell you that I tried to console one member on making a power conditioner, whom was already getting into it. I told him it is going to start costing a lot, because from experience I know how FAST the parts can add up. He thought I meant I was going to charge him(nope), and literally went bananas all over the forum slandering me. I believe he has since moved on (maybe not willfully) from WBF; and now you know the most secret of agendas I have had.

Ron, apologies for temporarily hi-jacking your thread to make things clear. I wish I had more suggestions for choosing amplifiers beyond that I like the ARC amps compared to others I have some experience with. Well, I did suggest one possibility of having an amp made by a special guru, that for the price would never be a bad investment - as it's usable in secondary system and costs very little. I have never been set on tube-only amplifiers. What would I be thinking about? Thrax is without a doubt a company with multiple amplifiers I'd be looking into. The hybrid I have heard and thought was impressive, with lots of potential. But I didn't get in enough variables to be 100% sold. They do have an all-tube amp that perhaps I can vote for being in the running, based on my impressions of the hybrid. But it is at 70w, the minimum your speakers could work with I suspect.

So you get on a car forum and claim a BUGATTI VEYRON SUPER SPORT can't accelerate, brake or corner well and this comment (which is patently absurd on its face) is not meant to incite a discussion about a car that you believe does accelerate, brake and corner well which you also happen to make. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Folsom]

Paul, if you're looking for a fight I'm not interested. I cannot imagine any other reason for the rudeness towards me, and Ron's thread. At this point you clearly do not believe anything I say, because you cherry pick a quote and proceed your attack from it - in disregard from the whole post. For that reason I cannot imagine any way I could possibly appease you, so don't expect the effort or fight.

 

[Pb Blimp]

Paul, if you're looking for a fight I'm not interested. I cannot imagine any other reason for the rudeness towards me, and Ron's thread. At this point you clearly do not believe anything I say, because you cherry pick a quote and proceed your attack from it - in disregard from the whole post. For that reason I cannot imagine any way I could possibly appease you, so don't expect the effort or fight.

I am not looking for a fight but I consider Kevin one of the most stand-up guys in the industry. When someones is conflicted by trade and has opinions so far outside the mainstream I feel this kind of disclosure/discussion is necessary if for no other reason than fairness to him. That said, I apologize to you and Ron for my rudeness.

 

[KeithR]

I take it back- looking forward to Rons exploration, not mine. He has some great ideas cooking

 

[Ron Resnick]

I take it back- looking forward to Rons exploration, not mine. He has some great ideas cooking

Don’t be silly. There is no reason to take anything back. I simply had not had a chance to reply yet.

I always appreciate suggestions. You proposed a great, simpler system.

I wince a bit when I think about six (6) Aesthetix boxes festooned with tubes. I wonder if I will lose in transparency whatever I gain in dynamics by using the Callisto, and dividing gain responsibilities between the Io and the Callisto, rather than relying solely on the Io as I did happily (or so I thought) for 18 years.

So all suggestions/critiques/musings/comments are welcome! This system will be a collaborative effort!

 

[Ron Resnick]

I have now calculated that the interconnect length between my line stage in the equipment room and the farther Pendragon bass tower in the listening room will be fifty-five (55) feet (allowing about four feet for measurement error and moving the bass towers around).

 

[microstrip]

I have now calculated that the interconnect length between my line stage in the equipment room and the farther Pendragon bass tower in the listening room will be fifty-five (55) feet (allowing about four feet for measurement error and moving the bass towers around).

XLR or single ended? You should use a very low capacitance cable, otherwise the load on the preamplfier will be significant. What will be the length between preamplfier and amplifier?

 

[Ron Resnick]

The Gryphon bass towers have a bridge to connect to the amplifiers, so the line stage to bass tower is the only long length.





I would prefer single-ended connections in general but my first thought is that that length requires balanced interconnects (the Io output and Gryphon input and outputs are true balanced, I believe).

But Mr. Fang says his AM Audio 833S amplifiers sound better with the single-ended input.

I agree, microstrip! I believe the MasterBuilt Ultra interconnect is very low capacitance.

PS: I have replaced the Alieno idea the JA200 MK. II, maybe with EL34s.

 

[microstrip]

The Gryphon bass towers have a bridge to connect to the amplifiers, so the line stage to bass tower is the only long length.

I would prefer single-ended connections in general but my first thought is that that length requires balanced interconnects (the Io output and Gryphon input and outputs are true balanced, I believe).

But Mr. Fang says his AM Audio 833S amplifiers sound better with the single-ended input.

I agree, microstrip! I believe the MasterBuilt Ultra interconnect is very low capacitance.

PS: I have replaced the Alieno idea the JA200 MK. II, maybe with EL34s.

I had no understood that the speakers include an active crossover for the middle/treble.

Using a stereo amplifier creates a very large ground loop - I would go XLR in this case. Probably the best choice to go RCA is using monoblocks and properly floating the grounds.

 

[Ron Resnick]

Actually, the crossover at the base of the ribbon/AMT panel is passive.

Now that I think I have dropped the Alieno from most serious consideration I’m not considering any stereo amplifier.