CH Precision L1 vs C1.2 Pre-Dac?

[agencal]

Hi all members.
I have a Sonus Faber iL Cremonese ex3me and driving it with CH M1.1 and a MSB Reference Dac-Pre. I came to CH becouse Gryphon’s power rating is a bit short for sonus faber and i felt CH is more relaxed,refined and detailed.After coming from Gryphon Essence pre power combo i am not happy with the soundstage depth and scale.Maybe it is the difference of class A to AB or lack of active pre amp. I am stream guy. I listen qobuz and tidal over roon.So i have two questions to ask .

1.My dealer offers to change the Msb dac with a C1.2 with stream card and tells me to use it as a pre amp. Then add a x1 powersupply.The snergy of beiang the same beand will be better than msb m1.1 combo. Sounds great but i read that most of the peple says dac’s pre will never be good as active pre amp like L1. I am on a budget now so is it better to go with L1 and add a relativly good dac from another brand or get the C1.2 and solve it in one box and add X1 with that budget.

2.Do you think CH’s 350w 4ohm is more powerfull than gryphons class A 100w 4ohm? Speakers slpecs tell to use amps betwreen 100 to 800w !!! Is M1.1 enough for this?

Thank You

 

[exupgh12]

Hi @agencal

1. Both your MSB DAC and your CH M1.1 are able to change gain (and feed back with your amp), did you try to match them ?
if C1.2 will sound better with your M1.1 is only because of matching input and out put gain, with all the respect the MSB is the better DAC in my experience.

2. Yes the CH is the more powerful amp, but the tonality of the two is different. gryphon have more meaty sound while the CH is more fast, clean and have less meaty sound.

 

[agencal]

T

Hi @agencal

1. Both your MSB DAC and your CH M1.1 are able to change gain (and feed back with your amp), did you try to match them ?
if C1.2 will sound better with your M1.1 is only because of matching input and out put gain, with all the respect the MSB is the better DAC in my experience.

2. Yes the CH is the more powerful amp, but the tonality of the two is different. gryphon have more meaty sound while the CH is more fast, clean and have less meaty sound.

Thank you. I did not know that i can change the output impedance from the msb dac. In the menu it is a constant value of 150ohm and it does not allow to change.

 

[Young Skywalker]

There is no impedance mismatch between the Reference DAC output (150 ohms) and the CH Precision M1.1 input (94,000 ohms for balanced). Adding a separate preamp will change the perceived sonic performance, maybe for the better but maybe not. It seems redundant in the context of your system.

I suspect that the loudspeaker is difficult to drive not because of its sensitivity, which is above average, but rather its impedance curve and associated phase angles. The “baby” Gryphon should have ample current to deal with that, so it is likely that you don’t like the Gryphon “house sound” which is a bit darker than most (less air/sparkle).

You could try an MSB amplifier (the best match with your Reference DAC). You could also try repositioning your loudspeakers following the amplifier change (this part is free).

I would caution against a DAC change. The MSB Reference DAC is very difficult to surpass if you care about recovering the maximum amount of recorded information.

 

[sbnx]

Ask the dealer to let you hear an L1 in your system. The CH preamp is very good.

 

[exupgh12]

T

Thank you. I did not know that i can change the output impedance from the msb dac. In the menu it is a constant value of 150ohm and it does not allow to change.

I see that this can be change only on Discrete and Premier but not on Reference and Select.

You can try adding pre amp or try checking your amp gain input as this is adjustable in 0.5 db steps to accommodate the input signal level.

 

[agencal]

There is no impedance mismatch between the Reference DAC output (150 ohms) and the CH Precision M1.1 input (94,000 ohms for balanced). Adding a separate preamp will change the perceived sonic performance, maybe for the better but maybe not. It seems redundant in the context of your system.

I suspect that the loudspeaker is difficult to drive not because of its sensitivity, which is above average, but rather its impedance curve and associated phase angles. The “baby” Gryphon should have ample current to deal with that, so it is likely that you don’t like the Gryphon “house sound” which is a bit darker than most (less air/sparkle).

You could try an MSB amplifier (the best match with your Reference DAC). You could also try repositioning your loudspeakers following the amplifier change (this part is free).

I would caution against a DAC change. The MSB Reference DAC is very difficult to surpass if you care about recovering the maximum amount of recorded information.

Reposition of speakers helped a lot. I am now in 3meters equlatteral triangle and toed the ex3mes directly to my ears and now i have a huge sound stage like i never experienced before. Thank you

 

[agencal]

I see that this can be change only on Discrete and Premier but not on Reference and Select.

You can try adding pre amp or try checking your amp gain input as this is adjustable in 0.5 db steps to accommodate the input signal level.

I have tried C1.2 and found.a great synergy than msb. But did not have the chace to try L1 yet.

 

[MadFloyd]

Reposition of speakers helped a lot. I am now in 3meters equlatteral triangle and toed the ex3mes directly to my ears and now i have a huge sound stage like i never experienced before. Thank you

Can you share a photo?

 

[ashandger]

Reposition of speakers helped a lot. I am now in 3meters equlatteral triangle and toed the ex3mes directly to my ears and now i have a huge sound stage like i never experienced before. Thank you

This is very similar to the way I had setup all my 3 previous Sonus Faber speakers and always got great depth and width with imaging well outside the speakers. Pedro, the setup guru for Absolute Sounds UK, often used a more severe toe-in where the tweeters would meet about a foot in front of the ears. I never tried this as I was happy with the soundstage I was getting. If you can try some Townshend Podiums under your speakers then you may well get even greater depth, transparency, detail and microdynamics. Lots of reviews online including a recent one from Paul Seydor on Tracking Angle. Enjoy your wonderful system.

 

[agencal]

Can you share a photo?

 

[agencal]

This is very similar to the way I had setup all my 3 previous Sonus Faber speakers and always got great depth and width with imaging well outside the speakers. Pedro, the setup guru for Absolute Sounds UK, often used a more severe toe-in where the tweeters would meet about a foot in front of the ears. I never tried this as I was happy with the soundstage I was getting. If you can try some Townshend Podiums under your speakers then you may well get even greater depth, transparency, detail and microdynamics. Lots of reviews online including a recent one from Paul Seydor on Tracking Angle. Enjoy your wonderful system.

Thank you. Never tried Townshend Podiums but i
Have Gaia II feet and they are great for bass tightness with this spealer. Yhey were magic with my Wilson sabrina x but not so with this ex3mes

 

[Elliot G.]

Hi all members.
I have a Sonus Faber iL Cremonese ex3me and driving it with CH M1.1 and a MSB Reference Dac-Pre. I came to CH becouse Gryphon’s power rating is a bit short for sonus faber and i felt CH is more relaxed,refined and detailed.After coming from Gryphon Essence pre power combo i am not happy with the soundstage depth and scale.Maybe it is the difference of class A to AB or lack of active pre amp. I am stream guy. I listen qobuz and tidal over roon.So i have two questions to ask .

1.My dealer offers to change the Msb dac with a C1.2 with stream card and tells me to use it as a pre amp. Then add a x1 powersupply.The snergy of beiang the same beand will be better than msb m1.1 combo. Sounds great but i read that most of the peple says dac’s pre will never be good as active pre amp like L1. I am on a budget now so is it better to go with L1 and add a relativly good dac from another brand or get the C1.2 and solve it in one box and add X1 with that budget.

2.Do you think CH’s 350w 4ohm is more powerfull than gryphons class A 100w 4ohm? Speakers slpecs tell to use amps betwreen 100 to 800w !!! Is M1.1 enough for this?

Thank You

First I am a CH dealer. The new C 1.2 is an excellent item and really great sounding. Using it as a volume control as well is IMO an interm step and using it with the L-1 is the way to go all day and twice on Sunday. The X-1 addition is IMO the last thing you do once you have a proper set up which is AMP/Preamp/DAC. You will find this the most satisfying of the combinations and if later on you want to upgrade you can add X-1's tto the preamp or the DAC. This is what I would suggest and would do. Enjoy

 

[agencal]

T

First I am a CH dealer. The new C 1.2 is an excellent item and really great sounding. Using it as a volume control as well is IMO an interm step and using it with the L-1 is the way to go all day and twice on Sunday. The X-1 addition is IMO the last thing you do once you have a proper set up which is AMP/Preamp/DAC. You will find this the most satisfying of the combinations and if later on you want to upgrade you can add X-1's tto the preamp or the DAC. This is what I would suggest and would do. Enjoy

Thank you Elliot. The c1.2 was occassion if buy it with x1 so i did it but any time i create a budget i will go with the L1 as well. It would be great to buy L1 wth C1.2 first but could not organize it that way.Do you think volume control of C1.2 is that bad that i can not live with it?
There will be a second mint M1.1 coming to my dealer with a very good price. Do you think i sould go with the monos of m1.1? Wihat sould i expect from that upgrade? In that case sould i go for the second m1.1 at first or this time go for L1 These things are like Lego add ons and you can never stop

 

[Elliot G.]

T

Thank you Elliot. The c1.2 was occassion if buy it with x1 so i did it but any time i create a budget i will go with the L1 as well. It would be great to buy L1 wth C1.2 first but could not organize it that way.Do you think volume control of C1.2 is that bad that i can not live with it?
There will be a second mint M1.1 coming to my dealer with a very good price. Do you think i sould go with the monos of m1.1? Wihat sould i expect from that upgrade? In that case sould i go for the second m1.1 at first or this time go for L1 These things are like Lego add ons and you can never stop

Systems are just that a system. The volume control on the DAC is fine but the overall SQ will be much better with the L-1connectedto the system.The mono amps are terrific however many of these upgrades are for a system that has been flushed out first and set up properly. I don't know your speakers well so I don't want to say the wrong thing but IMO I would rather have a stereo M10 than mono M1.1.
L1/C1.2/M1.1is a great combo. Thats what I would do first, make sure to have a great set up and a full loom of quality cables and live with it for a while. More more more is not always better better better.

 

[agencal]

Systems are just that a system. The volume control on the DAC is fine but the overall SQ will be much better with the L-1connectedto the system.The mono amps are terrific however many of these upgrades are for a system that has been flushed out first and set up properly. I don't know your speakers well so I don't want to say the wrong thing but IMO I would rather have a stereo M10 than mono M1.1.
L1/C1.2/M1.1is a great combo. Thats what I would do first, make sure to have a great set up and a full loom of quality cables and live with it for a while. More more more is not always better better better.

Thanks a lot. I will slow down a bit and enjoy what i have then. Thank you

 

[Elliot G.]

Thanks a lot. I will slow down a bit and enjoy what i have then. Thank you

Yes get it right ! By the L-1 i promise
you it will improve what you have by a lot.
Enjoy

 

[Young Skywalker]

Yes get it right ! By the L-1 i promise
you it will improve what you have by a lot.
Enjoy

Just curious and not disputing your expertise and familiarity with the CHP product line, but how does adding a component (an active preamp) to the signal path improve the sound, assuming there are no impedance matching or overall gain issues between the source and the load?

I can understand that an active line stage preamp has a role in many vinyl playback chains (since many phono preamps do not have oodles of super low noise gain) but most modern DACs have a low output impedance and enough voltage to drive most amplifiers to their full rated output.

I can understand that the output stage of a high end preamp is likely to be superior to that found in most modern DACs (some Aries Cerat DACs and the Playback Designs MPD-8 being notable exceptions) but it isn't like the DAC's output stage is bypassed when using an active preamp, only the resistor network of the volume control. Or is this not correct in the context of an all CHP signal path?

 

[zbub]

I am a sucker for having a preamp in the signal path, and since you already have a capable DAC, my vote is L1

 

[7ryder]

I had an L1/X1 (with an A1.5 amp) in my system prior to getting my MSB Reference. I ended up selling it and added the Reference Digital Director which did make a positive impact in my system. I also sold the A1.5 and replaced it with a D'Agostino Momentum MxV S250. In my room, these moves sound better than what I had previously. YMMV.