Magico Ultimate 3

[spiritofmusic]

I'm going to totally embarrass myself as the most non-computer literate person on the planet here, but what the heck!...does the Conbrio have an integral DAC, or does this have to be separate alongside the 3 boxes? Additionally, does the Ultimate have to be run fully active ie up to 10 amps worth, or can it be run passive with just a pair of monoblocks? It's an imposing pair of beasties as it is, and 10 amps boxes, 3 music server boxes, tt etc is a hell of a lot of real estate.
So, can the Ultimate be run by just a couple of monoblocks, and maintain an all-passive chain with tt/phono stage/cdp/pre/monos running into it's crossover?

 

[stereo]

LOL.... good one!! I only dealt with life or death situations... no real biggie!

Life or death... I can picture that ;-)

 

[stereo]

Drivers are by ALE. I've heard these in the personal horn system of Victor Sierra of Sierra-Brooks. They are extremely good drivers. Extremely pricey too I've heard. IIRC some can go for as much as $15,000 each. I haven't heard any GOTOs. Super-sized horn systems are rare and most I've seen use JBL or A-L.

Magico has tested all these drivers and also the TADs before going for custom designed drivers: they are coming originally from ALE and are modified by Magico. ALE drivers can be more than $20k each depending on model...
JBL is mid-fi and Goto was significantly worse than ALE.

 

[stereo]

I'm going to totally embarrass myself as the most non-computer literate person on the planet here, but what the heck!...does the Conbrio have an integral DAC, or does this have to be separate alongside the 3 boxes? Additionally, does the Ultimate have to be run fully active ie up to 10 amps worth, or can it be run passive with just a pair of monoblocks? It's an imposing pair of beasties as it is, and 10 amps boxes, 3 music server boxes, tt etc is a hell of a lot of real estate.
So, can the Ultimate be run by just a couple of monoblocks, and maintain an all-passive chain with tt/phono stage/cdp/pre/monos running into it's crossover?

The Conbrio doesn't include any DAC. Only digital crossover.
How to run the Ultimate is your choice. You can go fully active with 5 DACs and 10 channels of amplification, or you can go with a 3 ways active system, with a single DAC. A fully passive system is also possible (except for sub), but I wouldn't recommend it.

 

[spiritofmusic]

Stereo, I don't get why these can't work passively with a monoblock per spkr. Avantgarde Trios, OMA Imperias, Cessaro Projekt Liszt/Betas/Gammas, Musique Concrete horns all have powered subs, and pride themselves on being able to be run with a pair of flea-powered SETs. Doesn't multiplying the amps, X 3 or X 5, just introduce more inherent noise issues (120db eff is going to pick up hum no problem).
Additionally one of the great joys of horns is to use minimal power ie SETs, so doesn't a 5 pack/10 pack of solid state defeat the greatest raison-d'etre of such hyper-efficient behemoths?

 

[stereo]

Stereo, I don't get why these can't work passively with a monoblock per spkr. Avantgarde Trios, OMA Imperias, Cessaro Projekt Liszt/Betas/Gammas, Musique Concrete horns all have powered subs, and pride themselves on being able to be run with a pair of flea-powered SETs. Doesn't multiplying the amps, X 3 or X 5, just introduce more inherent noise issues (120db eff is going to pick up hum no problem).
Additionally one of the great joys of horns is to use minimal power ie SETs, so doesn't a 5 pack/10 pack of solid state defeat the greatest raison-d'etre of such hyper-efficient behemoths?

Some companies think that aligning drivers efficiency is an optimized way to design a speaker. Why would you spend a lot of money for a high efficiency driver if you need to attenuate it down 10dB with a resistor?
As I said, you can do whatever you want, but it doesn't mean it makes sense from a design point of view (and yes, you may not hear the difference with a pair of Avantgarde or Cessaro).
On SS vs. tubes. It is a personal choice. Some of current Ultimate owners use tubes, other SS.

 

[Dimfer]

Drivers are by ALE. I've heard these in the personal horn system of Victor Sierra of Sierra-Brooks. They are extremely good drivers. Extremely pricey too I've heard. IIRC some can go for as much as $15,000 each. I haven't heard any GOTOs. Super-sized horn systems are rare and most I've seen use JBL or A-L.

drool inducing eh

 

[nirodha]

drool inducing eh

If there was ever a WAF-killer...haha. Must say that I have never really listened to a horn-based speaker. The reasons: there aren't many around and the sentence used by many reviewers, something like..."it doesn't sound like a horn-based speaker" which kind of puts me off. I love the way some of them look by the way! Like some Acapellas

 

[spiritofmusic]

Stereo, I get the 3 amp/1 dac config'n, Hell, even 10 amps, but FIVE dacs? Surely active, as I remember it from the active Linn and Naim sytems of the 70s/80s was that the source signal goes into the preamp, then the active x/over, then into up to 6 monoblocks, and then the spkrs. The source signal, if we're talking digital, is a holistic stream of data from the server in your case, so surely it only needs one dac? What am I missing? Btw what is the dac you're going to use, that you'll have to shell out a small fortune for, buying 4 more than the rest of us have to?

 

[stereo]

Stereo, I get the 3 amp/1 dac config'n, Hell, even 10 amps, but FIVE dacs? Surely active, as I remember it from the active Linn and Naim sytems of the 70s/80s was that the source signal goes into the preamp, then the active x/over, then into up to 6 monoblocks, and then the spkrs. The source signal, if we're talking digital, is a holistic stream of data from the server in your case, so surely it only needs one dac? What am I missing? Btw what is the dac you're going to use, that you'll have to shell out a small fortune for, buying 4 more than the rest of us have to?

let me try to explain. If I over-simplify, you can basically go for 2 different scenarios (and many more in between):
1) digital source > 1 DAC > 1 pre > 1 digital crossover > 3 amps: one internal sub amp and 2 amp for tweeters vs. other channels (putting together the 3 drivers with similar sensitivity, with an analog XO)
Advantage: simple. Easier to do Takt timer alignment between the source and DAC.
Disadvantage: the crossover takes an analog signal, converts it back to digital, does the XO in digital domain, and convert back to analog. The analog XO between the 3 channels gives you much less flexibility on XO slopes, time and phase alignment, etc

2) digital source > digital XO (in my case same as source) > 5 DACs > a 10 channel pre > 5 amps
Advantage: one single conversion from digital to analog. Full flexibility in XO on how to handle each individual driver. Full flexibility on how to amplify each driver.
Disadvantage: More difficult to set up. Expensive. Needs a very good clock for takt time alignment across the DACs. Needs a custom made pre.

I will probably try both before deciding what is best. There are pros and cons.Theoretically option 2 is best, but as always it mainly depends on quality of implementation. Real life is different from paper!

 

[edorr]

2) digital source > digital XO (in my case same as source) > 5 DACs > a 10 channel pre > 5 amps
Advantage: one single conversion from digital to analog. Full flexibility in XO on how to handle each individual driver. Full flexibility on how to amplify each driver.
Disadvantage: More difficult to set up. Expensive. Needs a very good clock for takt time alignment across the DACs. Needs a custom made pre.

Here is what you could do. Run a digital source (server) into a Trinnov MC12. Your upstream source could be the new MSB UMT Plus used as a music server, which allows you to use their SOTA galaxy clock as the masterclock for the whole downstream architecture. You then build the active cross-overs with the Trinnov. The you output digitally to an array of MSB Dacs. These DACs have analog volume control and RS232, so no need for preamps. You control volume via macro programming over RS232.

If you do want a MCH Preamp at the end of the chain and want to throw some serious cash at the issue, you can daisy chain EMM Labs $preamps which are $15K for each stereo channel. I believe the Ayre top of the line will allow you to do the same.

 

[edorr]

Or use 5 Todaldac D1 in a 5-way configuration.
Use the digital built-in digital XO.

Connect the server without using the built-in digital X0 into the first Totaldac d1's.
The 5 amps connects to each d1.

No clock input, but I'm sure it can be customized.

MSB Galaxy clock is great, but is no match to a rubidium oscillator.
A great clock is the new Abendrot Stute.

Not sure how this would work with the Xover. You need a five way X-over the TotalDac is a 2-way.

Trinnov would also allow you to create different presets with different Xover points, and also offer full blown DRC. In my view, to crack this nut you need a single box to do all the digital processing, and then output 10 discrete channels to 5 dacs.

 

[Bruce B]

Or save yourself the trouble and complexity and use 8-channel DAC's.

 

[edorr]

From the pricelist:

Active crossovers (for specific speakers):
-2 way active crossover d2-single or d2-tube: 8915euros incl VAT in EU, 8195euros ext VAT out of EU
-3 way active crossover d3-single or d3-tube: 10800euros incl VAT in EU, 9900euros ext VAT out of EU
-2 way active crossover d2-dual: 11880euros incl VAT in EU, 10900euros ext VAT out of EU
-D2-digital active crossover with digital outputs: 4540euros incl VAT in EU, 4175euros ext VAT out of EU
-two d1-dual boxes associated to make a 2 way active crossover : 19900euros incl VAT in EU, 18500euros ext VAT out of EU
-three d1-dual boxes associated to make a 3 way active crossover : 29200euros incl VAT in EU, 26800euros ext VAT out of EU
-four d1-dual boxes associated to make a 4 way active crossover : 37500euros incl VAT in EU, 34400euros ext VAT out of EU

and so on...

Got it. So 50K euro (about $65K USA) will get you the goods. However, with all due respect to TotalDac, for this type of project, I would not want to have to deal with a garage operation in France, with no local USA support.

 

[edorr]

Or save yourself the trouble and complexity and use 8-channel DAC's.

Obviously, the primary design objective here is to get as close to perfection as possible, not "saving trouble and complexity".....

 

[stereo]

Thanks to everybody for your suggestions.
I tried multi- channel DACs like the Forssell 8 channels. Not bad for the money, but doesn't reach my bar.
I tried some fashionable, cheap new DAC like the Metrum Hex. Better than Forssell, but also not reaching my bar.
I heard the MSB, and didn't like it.
I don't want to try the latest DCS stack, because buying 5 of them is not an option ;-)
TotalDAC seems an interesting idea, but lack of clock input is a killer.

The server is going to the the Conbrio for sure. For active XO it is imperative that all channels are aligned at output of XO, so all DACs get the same sample at the same time (and the DACs need to be clock sync'ed). If not, you have phase skew at the sample level beyond all phase alignment because of the DSP in the XO. Conbrio will provide with 5 very clean, synchronized digital outputs towards the DACs.

 

[edorr]

I heard the MSB, and didn't like it.

That's a first.... What did you not like about the MSB. What DAC have you heard you did like? What are the contenders?

 

[stereo]

MSB Galaxy clock is great, but is no match to a rubidium oscillator.
A great clock is the new Abendrot Stute.

First time I hear about the Abendrot Stute clock. I had a look at what they use. Nothing special. Like 95%+ of all clocks on the market, it probably uses a milspec rubidium module, I guess less than 1k for the physics package (there are less than 2-3 manufacturers of rubidium tubes and 5-6 rubidium modules on the market). You can buy one of these modules for less than 400USD on EBay, if you take a cheaper version with less thermal stability:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SRS-STANFOR...36176?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item338290So

So basically you pay 24k mainly for the PSU and a nice box ;-)
I am ready to spend a lot of money for outstanding products like the Ultimate, but it doesn't mean I am not price sensitive: I pay a lot, but only when there is real value I am getting for it.
If I would spend so much money for a clock, I would rather build mine: am studying the possibility to use a Cesium clock (military technology, module costs 14k), GPS-disciplined (GPS is used to calibrate the local clock, constantly measuring the local drift). Drift is around 10e-8 for rubidium, vs. 10e-11 for cesium.

 

[stereo]

With the 5 Totaldac d1's you don't need the Conbrio digital XO and DAC's, so you don't need a clock.
Totaldac also makes an server which can be connected to an external NAS.

And you don't need an complex 10-channel analog preamp because it's inside the d1.

So total price around €55' for the 5 dacs and server.
This is actually cheap for the sound they deliver.

how do you connect 5 boxes and not have them Synched?

 

[andromedaaudio]

who says this individual[dac] amp/ driver configuration is the best, i ve not read stereo tested/listened to the other possibities, like a passive x over, making things more complex and expensive doesnt make them automatically better

Obviously, the primary design objective here is to get as close to perfection as possible, not "saving trouble and complexity".....