Madfloyd's System

MadFloyd

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Hi Al,

What a wonderful review of Ian's system! Has he installed the Pass Labs XS-150 monoblocks yet? Ian's system is world class in every since of the word. I think the strides that Magico has made with the M-Pro put them right on top with the combination of detailed, dynamic and organic sound. The Pass Labs XS-Pre and XS-150 combo also deliver a wonderfully organic sound and from what I've read, they're a wonderful synergistic match with Magico. Last but not least is Ian's analog source, which is top notch as well. Ian has put together an amazing system. We applaud you Ian. :)

Best,
Ken

Thank you for the kind words.

Ken, the XS-150's have not arrived yet, Al heard my system with the XA160.8's.

I hope to have the XS-150's in a week or so.

Al is probably not responding because his home computer isn't functional at the moment - when he made his post yesterday he also sent me an email wherein he mentioned that he was posting from work.
 

Alpinist

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Thank you for the kind words.

Ken, the XS-150's have not arrived yet, Al heard my system with the XA160.8's.

I hope to have the XS-150's in a week or so.

Al is probably not responding because his home computer isn't functional at the moment - when he made his post yesterday he also sent me an email wherein he mentioned that he was posting from work.

You're welcome, Ian! I hope the XS-150 mono amps takes you to the next level. I look forward to hearing your impressions.

All the best,
Ken
 
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Jazzhead

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Well done MadFloyd , good to hear of such great progress in your quest . Many congratulations , enjoy in good health .
 

PeterA

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I have just had the pleasure of hearing Ian's system again. It has improved yet again. Below is an edited copy of an email that I sent him this morning describing my observations. I may also post some further thoughts about his new Pass XS 150 amps in the Pass Labs forum:


Thank you Ian for yet another enjoyable day listening to great music with friends. Al M. and I had a great time. Thanks also for treating us both to lunch again.

For me, there were two really interesting comparisons yesterday. The first was the brief amp comparison. Similar to other direct comparisons we have made in your system in the past, I could identify differences, sometimes only subtle, but yesterday I think I was able to clearly understand HOW they sounded different.

Your new XS 150s combine the best of both the XA160.5 and the XA160.8 amps and take the resolution a step further. This was very clear to me. Similar to the .5, the XS fully exposes the harmonics of notes. The decays and trailing edges are more evident, and the music sounds more complete. There is an overlap of sounds, a more continuous, rich, natural presentation. The XA160.8 does not resolve these harmonics to the same extent. This lack of completeness to the music makes the .8 sound ever so slightly cool, more analytical and less beautiful. The .8 resolves layers and details very well, but it does not quite resolve the harmonics fully. The rich, warm natural sound of music depends on this complete recreation of the entire musical note. Sounds seem cleaner with the .8 because the sound is less complex and more direct. But it is also less complete. It resolves spacial information and transients very well. The XS 150s seem to do it all combining great control over the speakers, providing an ultra clean sound and high resolution but also presenting the complete note in all of its beauty and complexity, resulting in an extremely natural sound.

The second really interesting thing was the change in speaker positioning. It was very clear which location was better. This is not always the case, but your system has reached a point where it is so revealing of tiny changes that it was easy to hear. I commend you for finding that location and applaud your perseverance and willingness to experiment. I think you got this right. I would only try to get a straight edge along the footers and a laser to fine tune the toe in slightly and perhaps play with tiny changes of an inch or so, but you are very close if not there right now.

I knew immediately while listing to the M Pro that you were on the verge of having a truly extraordinary system. With the addition of the Kronos, ZYX cartridge and Pass XS electronics, you now have all the pieces. The tone and dynamics were excellent, along with scale, but lacking for me and Al was the sense of presence which prevented the system from being truly special. Al heard a new level of transparency yesterday and I heard, for really the first time ever at your house, a real sense of presence. That was the last missing piece for me and what I still preferred about my own system over yours.

Now you went ahead and took that little advantage away from me. And I applaud you for it. I can now honestly write that your system does everything that I love so much about my own system, but it does it at a higher level. And in a few areas - scale, extension and resolution - considerably better than mine.

My first audio mentor once told me that if you want to enjoy digital, just never listen to the same recording on vinyl. That was back in 1993, and things have surely changed since then. I am now reminded of his comments when thinking about our two systems. I can’t help but to be slightly more aware of my system's deficiencies now that I have been exposed to a system which is so much better in some areas. So to paraphrase my mentor, if I want to really enjoy my system, I had better not hear your system too often.

That is kind of funny, but actually I appreciate your system in part because it demonstrates very well what is possible in audio reproduction today. It is state of the art, in my opinion. We can learn from that and it gives us another reference beyond live music on which we can base future thinking about the audio hobby.

I congratulate you on what you have achieved. It is truly remarkable and an example to all who are lucky enough to experience it, what is possible in this hobby. You have done a great job putting this system together. Congratulations, your system is truly remarkable and very special.

Peter
 

Alpinist

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Jun 17, 2014
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USA
I have just had the pleasure of hearing Ian's system again. It has improved yet again. Below is an edited copy of an email that I sent him this morning describing my observations. I may also post some further thoughts about his new Pass XS 150 amps in the Pass Labs forum:


Thank you Ian for yet another enjoyable day listening to great music with friends. Al M. and I had a great time. Thanks also for treating us both to lunch again.

For me, there were two really interesting comparisons yesterday. The first was the brief amp comparison. Similar to other direct comparisons we have made in your system in the past, I could identify differences, sometimes only subtle, but yesterday I think I was able to clearly understand HOW they sounded different.

Your new XS 150s combine the best of both the XA160.5 and the XA160.8 amps and take the resolution a step further. This was very clear to me. Similar to the .5, the XS fully exposes the harmonics of notes. The decays and trailing edges are more evident, and the music sounds more complete. There is an overlap of sounds, a more continuous, rich, natural presentation. The XA160.8 does not resolve these harmonics to the same extent. This lack of completeness to the music makes the .8 sound ever so slightly cool, more analytical and less beautiful. The .8 resolves layers and details very well, but it does not quite resolve the harmonics fully. The rich, warm natural sound of music depends on this complete recreation of the entire musical note. Sounds seem cleaner with the .8 because the sound is less complex and more direct. But it is also less complete. It resolves spacial information and transients very well. The XS 150s seem to do it all combining great control over the speakers, providing an ultra clean sound and high resolution but also presenting the complete note in all of its beauty and complexity, resulting in an extremely natural sound.

The second really interesting thing was the change in speaker positioning. It was very clear which location was better. This is not always the case, but your system has reached a point where it is so revealing of tiny changes that it was easy to hear. I commend you for finding that location and applaud your perseverance and willingness to experiment. I think you got this right. I would only try to get a straight edge along the footers and a laser to fine tune the toe in slightly and perhaps play with tiny changes of an inch or so, but you are very close if not there right now.

I knew immediately while listing to the M Pro that you were on the verge of having a truly extraordinary system. With the addition of the Kronos, ZYX cartridge and Pass XS electronics, you now have all the pieces. The tone and dynamics were excellent, along with scale, but lacking for me and Al was the sense of presence which prevented the system from being truly special. Al heard a new level of transparency yesterday and I heard, for really the first time ever at your house, a real sense of presence. That was the last missing piece for me and what I still preferred about my own system over yours.

Now you went ahead and took that little advantage away from me. And I applaud you for it. I can now honestly write that your system does everything that I love so much about my own system, but it does it at a higher level. And in a few areas - scale, extension and resolution - considerably better than mine.

My first audio mentor once told me that if you want to enjoy digital, just never listen to the same recording on vinyl. That was back in 1993, and things have surely changed since then. I am now reminded of his comments when thinking about our two systems. I can’t help but to be slightly more aware of my system's deficiencies now that I have been exposed to a system which is so much better in some areas. So to paraphrase my mentor, if I want to really enjoy my system, I had better not hear your system too often.

That is kind of funny, but actually I appreciate your system in part because it demonstrates very well what is possible in audio reproduction today. It is state of the art, in my opinion. We can learn from that and it gives us another reference beyond live music on which we can base future thinking about the audio hobby.

I congratulate you on what you have achieved. It is truly remarkable and an example to all who are lucky enough to experience it, what is possible in this hobby. You have done a great job putting this system together. Congratulations, your system is truly remarkable and very special.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Thanks for posting that terrific review of Ian's system! You did a tremendous job of describing the differences between the Pass XA.5, XA.8 and XS series amps. Having owned both the XA-100.5 and XA-100.8 amps, I absolutely agree with what you stated. I'm glad to hear that the XS series gives you the best of both the XA.5 and XA.8 series.

And Ian, congratulations on adding one of the final pieces to a world-class system in the XS-150 mono amps. Bravo!

Best,
Ken
 

Al M.

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Great review, Peter. I enjoyed very much the time with you both yesterday, Ian and Peter.

Indeed, the presence with the new position of the speakers, a bit further back and apart, is now striking. You mentioned that I heard a new level of transparency. Yes, as I wrote on another thread "what struck me this time was the incredible level of openness and transparency on some recordings -- extremely close to the transparency of unamplified live music in the most open sounding venues (I had no idea that this was even possible from a system)."

"if I want to really enjoy my system, I had better not hear your system too often." I do not quite share this sentiment. I did enjoy my own system also very much after coming home yesterday.
 
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LL21

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MadFloyd

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Thanks, guys. It was a fun day!
 

KeithR

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Congrats, Ian, on getting your system in tip top shape! I know you've put a lot of effort into it and it sounds like the rewards are immense :)
 

Al M.

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Yesterday I went to Ian's place to listen to music, specifically to a lot of jazz that I didn't know yet (and for Ian there was a lot of exploration of to him not yet well-known stuff as well). Normally I listen mostly to classical and classical avantgarde, but lately I have been deep into jazz, including jazz avantgarde. Last time when I was at Ian' s place, together with Peter A., I was drooling over his record collection, which included a whole lot of old-time jazz that I didn't know yet, and I told him that I wanted to listen to that stuff, which he graciously agreed to.

We spun one album after another for just musical interest, regardless of sound -- drums on 1950s recordings usually sounded suboptimal, because at that time sound engineers mostly had not yet figured out how to record them properly, but we lived with that. We started at 10:30 in the morning and, after a lunch break, listened until the evening. Apart from jazz we had a short venture into progressive rock, and a few other things. The only two audiophile things we did during the entire day was a quick comparison of two pressings of Henry Mancini's "Peter Gunn" soundtrack (a recent 45 rpm re-issue won) and a brief switch between two gain settings on the phono amp (more about that below).

Here is the playlist of artists:

Duke Ellington
John Hodges
Duke Ellington & John Hodges
Count Basie
Pianist Andrew Hill
Ornette Coleman (Shape of Jazz to Come)
Henry Mancini (Peter Gunn)
Ian Garbarek
Sax player J. R. Monterose
Drummer Pete La Roca, featuring Joe Henderson on sax
Ry Cooder & V.M. Bhatt
Modern Jazz Quartet
Trio of Doom (Jaco Pastorius, John McLaughlin, Tony Williams)
Trombonist Grachan Moncur III (Evolution)

Prog Rock:
Gentle Giant (album Free Hand)
Genesis (Lamb Lies Down on Broadway)

Ian was not sure if I would like everything because he said some of it was an acquired taste. But I loved practically all of it, also the 'crazy' stuff', including the early jazz avantgarde (e.g., Ornette Coleman, Grachan Moncur III), and I also loved the Prog Rock. We even went for some Indian-flavored music (Ry Cooder & V.M. Bhatt). We both were also really impressed with sax player Joe Henderson on the Pete La Roca recording.

We spun mostly at least one LP side of each recording, and in more than a few cases we listened to the whole thing. It was a fantastic musical experience.

The sound:
We started with side 2 of a Duke Ellington recording which we had spun side 1 from the last time and which I had loved. I was struck by the much greater impact, incisiveness, and presence of the music over last time, with also greater transparency. I was puzzled at first, but then it dawned on me that Ian had the Pass XS Phono stage for audition, as potential replacement for his Pass XP-25. I completely had forgotten about that, I only had come to listen to some music! Could just a phonostage make such a huge difference? Then Ian told me that on the XP-25 he could not use the 76 setting because it sounded somewhat distorted in his system, but that he had it on setting 66. On the XS Phono the 76 setting was what he used. We switched to the 66 setting on the XS Phono and indeed, it sounded more like the XP-25, more polite and less impactful. It still sounded considerably better than the XP-25 at that setting, but with the XS Phono on 76 it was when the lion really started to roar, at least in Ian's set-up. Even at a much lower sound volume the music on that setting had more impact than at 66 played at high volume.

While I had previously described Ian's system as the best that I had heard, it did sound a bit too polite to my taste on some music (that's a personal assessment; some listeners like a more polite sound without that necessarily being a bad thing). That changed yesterday. The system stopped being polite at all, but rather, it became 'obnoxious' in the best imaginable way: the music grabbed you by the ears and didn't let loose, like it does in my system, at least as I personally perceive it. At once I heard all the excitement of the music as I experience it in my system, and perhaps even more of it, but then at a much higher level of sound quality, transparency and realism -- as it should be, given the difference in quality of components and investment. Everything sounded incisive, like live music usually does. But then, there it also depends on the venue and seating, so there is room for the personal taste of everybody; yet clearly the greater incisiveness and sonic impact of the music was to Ian's and also my taste. For those who want a more polite sound, Ian could play the phonostage at setting 66.

So far I had had my reservations about brass bite through the analog medium of vinyl. On lesser vinyl brass usually sounds too 'soft' and mellow, compared to the real thing. While on mostly early digital playback artificial harshness has stood in the way, once that electronic artifact is stripped away, like on great current digital playback, digital turns out to have this great innate ability to portray the natural hardness and bite of brass sound. In Peter A.'s excellent analog system I heard for the first time that the best analog can do that too and that on some recordings brass can have real bite like it can on digital. I had heard some of that brass bite in Ian's system as well, which had been reassuring, but I had kept some reservations about vinyl because I had thought that on a number of recordings brass sounded too mellow, including on that Duke Ellington recording. Yesterday that changed completely. Not only the Duke Ellington recording had plenty of brass bite, but so did virtually every other recording with brass that we spun. Obviously, pressing quality in vinyl is a big issue, and a good amount of vinyl fails to convince because of poor pressing, but a lot of the vinyl that we listened to was re-issues, where clearly great care was taken of pressing quality. Not just did the brass have bite, but it sounded more convincing than on the digital I have heard, simply because timbral realism, transparency and detail was so much better, at an insane level of resolution that I had not heard before.

Now that the brass bite issue is resolved, something that had made me keep some reservations about vinyl, I have a hard time seeing anymore any sonic advantages of digital over analog, and analog is superior over all the digital that I have heard, including mine, in terms of timbral resolution, among others (I haven't heard the best digital though, but given the incredible sound that I heard from Ian's vinyl rig I am not holding my breath). I say all this as a die-hard digital-only guy who doesn't have any inclinations to invest in a vinyl set-up, for several reasons, most importantly the fact that a lot of the new music that I listen to is simply not available on vinyl. I call it as my ears tell me, not as by my personal source preferences I might be biased to do.

Vinyl in Ian's system was also superior to digital in terms of dynamics. Yes, you read that right, dynamics, even though nominally even plain Redbook CD is supposed to have more dynamics. So far I had thought that the one area in which my, relatively spoken, humble system could compete with Ian's system was dynamics. Even Ian had written on my system thread that my system has "an abundance of dynamics". That changed yesterday too. The new phonostage that we auditioned made vinyl reproduction even more dynamic, and not by a small margin. You just had to listen in some of the music, including the Duke Ellington (a 65-year old recording!), to the explosive dynamics of the onset of blowing through a brass instrument at the beginning of a new phrase, and you knew this was dynamics at a whole new level.

In addition, through the XS Phono the music had considerably more bass power. Ian now had a REL subwoofer in his system, which integrated seamlessly into the sound just like the REL does in my system, but even with the subwoofer turned off drums had much more drive and heft. Also the left hand of piano had enormous heft in a Count Basie recording from the 1970s (that recording featured tremendous brass dynamics too). In general, the sound was fuller, through the entire midrange as well.

We could have checked if, probably so, orchestral strings sounded even better than before, or if string quartet sound was even more believable, but I was just not in an audiophile mood, and neither was Ian, apparently. We just wanted to listen to the music that we were interested in at the moment. And so we did.

The new phonostage would bring Ian's system to a whole new level, not just in terms of sound, but importantly, also in terms of communication of the music. I had said previously that Ian's system is the best system I have heard. With the XS Phono in place I would now say that Ian's system is twice the best system I have heard. And it is the most dynamic system that I have heard. Period.

Congratulations, Ian, for exploring this component, and congratulations on your spectacular system! And thank you very much for such an enjoyable day of music!
 

ack

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Fascinating read, Al; and congratulations Ian! Regarding LP dynamics over CD, there are a number of us who have claimed the same a number of times, and there have been some interesting threads on this. But when one listens to really good analog, lights go off. Regarding RBCD and timbral resolution, think about this: can it encode all harmonics? The answer is clearly no, it just can't sample anything over Nyquist frequency, 22.05kHz.
 

Al M.

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Fascinating read, Al; [...] Regarding RBCD and timbral resolution, think about this: can it encode all harmonics? The answer is clearly no, it just can't sample anything over Nyquist frequency, 22.05kHz.

Thanks. We disagree on the theoretical level, when it comes to audible harmonics. But we've had an extensive discussion about this before,

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showt...d-theoretically-sufficient-timbral-resolution

and Madfloyd's system thread is obviously not the place to debate this further. The just linked thread is, if there's any appetite.
 

Al M.

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Great report Al. It's nice to read that a SS phono can provide this level of emotional connection to the music.

Thanks. While I am a tube guy, I have given up a while ago thinking in terms of solid state vs. tube, given my experiences with both Spectral and Pass. Hey, I didn't even ponder the earthshaking fact that the XS Phono was solid state ;) Yes, if I am not mistaken, Ian thought about a tubed phono stage some time ago, but that may be a moot point now...
 

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