Visit to Todd (sbnx) Avantgarde Trio G3 in Parker, Texas

[andromedaaudio]

In your consideration, what is a better tool for comparative analysis?

Your own ears may be , just guessing ....

 

[Carlos269]

Your own ears may be , just guessing ....
View attachment 127711

I guess you don’t realize how fleeting aural memory is.

 

[Audiohertz2]

In your consideration, what is a better tool for comparative analysis?

I use videos like you to get a window view in , when there is no otherway to hear a particular setup , its never an absolute conclusive due to the many errors involved, its mostly to compare changes to that actual system not to compare to others being recorded in a totally different environment , phone mic , non standard recording distance , different SPL, outdated software et al ...


There’s too many variables even worse than our current top Tier reviewer comparing components without reference Volume matching ..!

Regards

 

[andromedaaudio]

I guess you don’t realize how fleeting aural memory is.

Thats why audiofiles change gear once in a while , also no problem afaic

 

[Audiohertz2]

I guess you don’t realize how fleeting aural memory is.

Depends on who is carrying that egg

 

[Carlos269]

I use videos like you to get a window view in , when there is no otherway to hear a particular setup , its never an absolute conclusive due to the many errors involved, its mostly to compare changes to that actual system not to compare to others being recorded in a totally different environment , phone mic , non standard recording distance , different SPL, outdated software et al ...


There’s too many variables even worse than our current top Tier reviewer comparing components without reference Volume matching ..!

Regards

No one has ever claimed that videos are representative in absolute terms.

I made a simple request for a video, either it will be produced or it will not.

As many have mentioned, if you want to argue about the merits of videos or how to utilize them, then let’s head over to the other thread, although much of what needs to be said, I have already stated there for yours and anyone else’s reference.

 

[Carlos269]

Depends on who is carrying that egg

So no answer from you to my question?

 

[Audiohertz2]

So no answer from you to my question?

I did answer your question , maybe you need to define context as to what you seek ..!

 

[Carlos269]

I did answer your question , maybe you need to define context as to what you seek ..!

Here it is again, what is a better tool for comparative analysis of different audio systems than system videos?

 

[Hear Here]

Weird isn't it - as far as I know, no brand ever uses video on their websites to demonstrate the quality of sound their equipment produces (despite their access to professional recording equipment, microphones, etc), yet there are people here who truly think their grotty mobile phones can record the quality of a high end system so that others here can listen to it and believe they can hear truly wonderful music and can judge the quality of a 100K + system!

Pull the other one!

 

[Audiohertz2]

Here it is again, what is a better tool for comparative analysis of different audio systems than system videos?

Let me try again , my first response may have been too fast ..

In order to use videos to do absolute compares you gotta standardized your testing ,

Same mic ,same mic distance from loudspeakers , same recordings SPL , same playback software ..!

You also gotta make sure the systems are not clipping .

If not then its all Bovine entertainment..!

The correct way is in person AB demo sighted and unsighted using the same Parameters ..

Regards

 

[Carlos269]

Let me try again , my first response may have been too fast ..

In order to use videos to do absolute compares you gotta standardized your testing ,

Same mic ,same mic distance from loudspeakers , same recordings SPL , same playback software ..!

You also gotta make sure the systems are not clipping .

If not then its all Bovine entertainment..!

The correct way is in person AB demo sighted and unsighted using the same Parameters ..

Regards

I did not ask you how to “normalize” the analysis. I asked you to name a better tool for such analysis.

 

[adyc]

We have relative peace for the last few weeks in this forum. Now here we go again. Deja vu.

 

[Carlos269]

We have relative peace for the last few weeks in this forum. Now here we go again. Deja vu.

Please keep and have your peace back. It was supposed to be a polite simple request…..and then they all came out to play king of the hill.

 

[Lagonda]

We have relative peace for the last few weeks in this forum. Now here we go again. Deja vu.

Yes as usual a cross continent pissing contest ! Long live the internet and its many uses !

 

[Audiohertz2]

I did not ask you how to “normalize” the analysis. I asked you to name a better tool for such analysis.

Go easy , Im trying my best , waiting for my Vulcan buddy to respond to my lifeline request ..

Whats real funny is you holding on to your non normalized videos telling naught yet proud as S**** ..!

 

[Bergm@nn]

Anyway….

Kudos to @sbnx Todd for this sharing this detailed, informative and most helpful thread and bringing to life the story of what it takes and the rewards of investing a lot of time and energy into speaker set up.

I’ve heard Trios many times and have some appreciation of what they can achieve, and also what happens when they’re sub optimally set up. What Todd has done looks like a masterclass in skilled set up.

It also seems that G3 Trios and Spacehorns are sonically superior to their Duo equivalents- who knew ?! I should bloody well hope so.

The potential of Trios does not diminish the sound that you can get from Duos. I fully recognise that early Duos were not the best in terms of bass and mid integration, and could sound incoherent. However the later models and particularly Duo XD exhibit none of this and are capable of reproducing fabulous music where space or funds for Trio do not allow. I’m looking forward to auditioning Duo GT with my own ears when the opportunity allows

(FWVLIW, some of the alternatives suggested as superior do make me laugh. Devore can sound nice but need very careful matching to fix their inherent flaws, and hORNS Universum have never convinced me even with extended listening at a dealer - if anything sounds broken to my ears it’s these - ymmv).

I find that as in life there are very few absolutes in hifi and many more things that are just opinion. As a rule in life I tend not to place too much trust in opinion stated as fact, especially when it’s given with insistence and 100% conviction. As Bertrand Russell rightly noted, wiser minds can be full of doubt.

I look forward to Todd’s continued experience with Duo GT set up to learn more from.

 

[Chop]

I am certainly not upset that Ked states his opinions. It is a free forum (as long as there is no personal attacks). He is merely trying to communicate to others that he has heard better sound from the O96 (and others) than the DuoGT. As Mike L. would say that is a data point for people to put in their head and think about.

The trouble, in general, is that a speaker can be made to sound pretty bad or just ok or really great depending on the seup and how much attention to detail the person setting up the system paid to getting music to happen. Let me explain what I have learned about the DuoGT to this point. I am still learning but here goes.

Just like the Trio the tweeter in the DuoGT is set into a sphereical horn. That means that the speaker needs to be pointed pretty much right at the listener. Poor toe-in choice is one reason a lot of the setups can sound bright. People tend to think toeing in the speaker is going to make it bright but that is backwards.

The Duo GT has two 12" woofers and is ported through the bottom. This means that it is extremely responsive to height. Getting the speaker to come up some will vastly clean up bass articulation. It is enough height that one really needs longer spikes. I use shims.

Speaking of height and tweeter -- The tweeter in the DuoGT is just 36" off the floor. A typical listening height is going to be between 38" (on the low side) ot 41". Sitting in those dining charis at a show my ear height is 45". For the same reasons stated above on toe-in the tweeter really needs to be pointed in the vicinity of the same height as the ear. Raising the speaker to help bass articulation helps this also. But then the speaker is going to need some rake.

Then there is the crossover point between the woofer bin and the horn. I am still playing with this some but the default is 170Hz with a 24 dB/Oct Butterworth Filter. Surprisingly, I am exploring the 12 dB/Octave filter with some nice benefits. TBD if I will leave it like this.

Do you see my point? Details apply to ANY speaker. Not the specifics I stated above but the specifics for how THAT specific speaker is designed and responds. It is very easy to set this (or any) speaker up by just pointing them straight ahead, relatively flat on the spikes and maybe even shoved up against a wall. In this case one would be listening to the room as sound is simply sprayed around everywhere. To me, going into a room like this is like a "noise box". I think some like this type of sound as it is very uniform around the room. I consider this uniformly bad sound. But to each their own.

Todd, thanks, your comments on set up here are interesting (my highlighting).
Note that my Trios are the older ones where the tweeter horn cannot be moved to time align it. I'll caveat the photo below by stating for the record the set up of my Trios in this new room are still a bit of a work in progress but the requirements are definitely different to a flat ceiling.

These have been in 3 rooms now. In previous rooms I agree the sound has always been best with the tweeters pointing pretty much straight at the listeners head. If I set them like that here the life goes out of the music and the image becomes too central.

In this room with the "cathedral" ceiling they definitely sound better angled out a bit, with the direct point being about 2.5 feet behind my head. In this position the tonality dynamics and soundstaging just seem more convincing. (NB it isn't really practical to move them even further into the room, though I am experimenting with this. I'm sitting further away than 83% ish. )
My paranoia is that I have no idea whether I am tone deaf, or why the ceiling would have that much effect. So I keep fiddling with placement.
Thanks for making me think!

 

[Hear Here]

Todd, thanks, your comments on set up here are interesting (my highlighting).
Note that my Trios are the older ones where the tweeter horn cannot be moved to time align it. I'll caveat the photo below by stating for the record the set up of my Trios in this new room are still a bit of a work in progress but the requirements are definitely different to a flat ceiling.

These have been in 3 rooms now. In previous rooms I agree the sound has always been best with the tweeters pointing pretty much straight at the listeners head. If I set them like that here the life goes out of the music and the image becomes too central.

In this room with the "cathedral" ceiling they definitely sound better angled out a bit, with the direct point being about 2.5 feet behind my head. In this position the tonality dynamics and soundstaging just seem more convincing. (NB it isn't really practical to move them even further into the room, though I am experimenting with this. I'm sitting further away than 83% ish. )
My paranoia is that I have no idea whether I am tone deaf, or why the ceiling would have that much effect. So I keep fiddling with placement.
Thanks for making me think!

View attachment 128348

It surprises me somewhat that so many Trio owners place them with tweeters closest together.

I would have thought that the bass should be marginally better if a little further from side walls / corners and that the image-generating treble should be marginally better if a little further apart.

Do Trio users place them where the User Guide suggests, or do they experiment with them switched around?

My Duos don't have this choice as all drivers are vertically aligned - in theory a better situation than the non-alligned Trio geometry!

 

[Chop]

I have tried them over the years a few times with the tweeters on the outside. I could never get them to integrate properly.