Live music, Tone and Presence: What most systems get wrong

[christoph]

Yes I understand that Andromedaaudio, and Atkins illustrates that very thing in his sidebar.

My point was simple. Here are your own words: "Audio should be about listening pleasure not about proving a point". You seem very eager to prove a point by linking to Stereophile measurement section about a specific horn speaker example, and then state that it is a fact. That looks like a proof to me. With this "fact", you seem to imply that listening pleasure will not happen with a horn speaker that measure like that. I might agree with that implication, but you are still trying to prove a point, when audio should really be about listening pleasure. A minority of members here actually enjoy the horn/set approach to audio and are certainly having lots of pleasure. And if you follow the posting, you will see the people are really talking about very specific horn speakers and amplifier pairings. Just like with other speaker types, the discussion doesn’t seem to be in general terms but about specific examples.

I don’t see turntable manufacturers posting links to measurements for competing turntables. Same with electronics and cable manufacturers. I think that would really shake things up.

Live Music, Tone, and Presence: What most systems get wrong. This is a nice thread topic from Brad. The title does not say anything about horn based systems.

I admire your spirit, Peter.
Sometimes one has to admit that any further discussion is pointless.
I found my personal "solution"

 

[microstrip]

It will be awesome then that you will get to hear both these amps at home matched to a speaker they cannot properly drive

As Steve has explained, the Lamm ML3 can properly drive the X2 or the XLF, I simply prefer the VTL Siegfried II with them in my system in my current very long room. BTW, an enthusiastic XLF owner reported me excellent results with his Kondo Kagura's. The same for member Audiocrack La Absoluta.

 

[Argonaut]

I think i have been quit consistent over the years .



Its when horn people start making absolute statements about audio products thats what s get my attention .

Its a bit of a nasty group in general imo.
Audio should be about listening pleasure not about proving a point

A little like your absolutist statement that you manufacture the best speakers that you have as yet heard ? And yet you cannot provide us with an independently sourced set of measurements , any reviews from any professional reviewer or even any comment from a customer of your speakers !

 

[PeterA]

A little like your absolutist statement that you manufacture the best speakers that you have as yet heard ? And yet you cannot provide us with an independently sourced set of measurements , any reviews from any professional reviewer or even any comment from a customer of your speakers !

Here is a visitor report by our own Ron Resnick in mono stereo publication. Ron and Bonzo visited together and brought their records. This is the only thing I could find doing a Google search.

ANDROMEDA DESIGN VISIT REPORT

Mono & Stereo High-End Audio Magazine: Magico - Nagra - Tidal Audio - Wilson Audio - MSB - Totaldac - Living Voice - Taiko Audio - Aries Cerat -Thrax

www.monoandstereo.com

 

[Argonaut]

Here is a visitor report by our own Ron Resnick in mono stereo publication. Ron and Bonzo visited together and brought their records. This is the only thing I could find doing a Google search.

ANDROMEDA DESIGN VISIT REPORT

Mono & Stereo High-End Audio Magazine: Magico - Nagra - Tidal Audio - Wilson Audio - MSB - Totaldac - Living Voice - Taiko Audio - Aries Cerat -Thrax

www.monoandstereo.com

Thank you Peter.

 

[JayR]

Wow.. what an awesome original post. Had to post a reply to this agreeing with almost all points.

Reminded me of our visit to Vienna, Austria. We attended a four seasons Vivaldi concert at the St. Stephan’s (sp?) cathedral in Central Vienna. We were seated in the first row just left of center about 10’ from the performers. For the first time in my life, I experienced the rich music just wash through us. We were mesmerized by the whole experience.

Funny part is I never tried to relate that experience with music reproduction at home. It is never the same. iMO, the musical and emotional engagement that we had on that day with music washing through us can never be reproduced at home.

Having read this post which bought back memories of that event, I am thinking of changing my system to focus more on musical and emotional engagement than audiophile details. Not sure where I am headed but this post has definitely started me thinking.

Thanks for the wonderful post and following discussion.

 

[morricab]

The Horn Shoppe freq response graph is simply a fact .
Its simply not a accurate transducer
But it seems even posting simple facts gets people exited .

Im not saying all horns measure like this , its just an example

There is a lot more to accuracy in audio than an on axis frequency response curve...

 

[andromedaaudio]

A little like your absolutist statement that you manufacture the best speakers that you have as yet heard ? And yet you cannot provide us with an independently sourced set of measurements , any reviews from any professional reviewer or even any comment from a customer of your speakers !

There is a distinct difference .

Its when i would start using terms as my speakers /system sounds like live unamplified music
i would have problem with such
I design stuff i like off course .

But i never state my speakers sound natural like live unamplified music would .
Because how on earth could i know.
I could say " i think " but thats basically it , same goes for anyone else

 

[andromedaaudio]

I have seen many people argue that SETs make an unrealistic sound in terms of tone and "projection" of the sound...artifacts and distortion some people say. And yet, they get closer to the sound I heard yesterday (coupled with horns in particular) live than any other technology I have heard. I have laid out technical reasons why but the best is just listening and realizing what the real deal sounds like and which technology gets us closer to that.

SET / Horn propaganda , lol .
Which you appear to be selling .
Which is fine , you seem to have a business interest as well

I ve listened to this at a the dutch audio last year for about 2 songs and that was all i could handle .
THe JBL demo was one of the worst things i ve ever heard in audio

Please give me the best example which you think is the exact musical truth and i ll listen to that extensively in munich .
Living Voice ??

 

[Ron Resnick]

SET / Horn propaganda , lol .
Which you appear to be selling .
Which is fine , you seem to have a business interest as well

Morricab stated his personal opinion that "[horns get me closer to the sound of live music] than any other technology I have heard."

This seems to me to be far from "selling" horn "propaganda."

 

[andromedaaudio]

The NAT SE2SE was superior to the CAt JL2. Signature and is a closer like for like comparison.

Another example .
The word " is " that is used here??
Basically Morricab decides what " is " the musical truth .

The tittle says it all

What most systems get wrong .....
And horns and sets get right off course

Well lets say it politely , opnions differ on that .
And yes i have heard NAT a couple of times , among a lot of other Sets ..

 

[morricab]

SET / Horn propaganda , lol .
Which you appear to be selling .
Which is fine , you seem to have a business interest as well

I ve listened to this at a the dutch audio last year for about 2 songs and that was all i could handle .
THe JBL demo was one of the worst things i ve ever heard in audio

Please give me the best example which you think is the exact musical truth and i ll listen to that extensively in munich .
Living Voice ??


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View attachment 89403

Don't know who will be there this year. Avantgarde with SS is, IMO, a disaster as they reveal far too much of what isn't going right there. But AG trios with SET or Duos with SET can sound Modern JBL K2 speakers have also left me unimpressed (but I only heard with new Mark Levinson stuff and not good tubes) but their classic ones are awesome. Odeon often has a good demonstration. Aries Cerat is, of course, one not to be missed (and yes I represent them). If Martion is back (I don't remember seeing them in recent years) then they are often impressive. Acapella has been awesome or decent (never heard them sound poor). Living Voice, as you mentioned. Horns Universum if it is there was really excellent as well with small EL84 PP tube amps. Lansche Cubus II was really good and much better than their other speakers, which are basically conventional with an ion tweeter. Blumenhofer had one awesome huge system a few years ago but their "normal" sized speakers not so much. Wolf von Langa is mostly not horns but their top model is and if they ever come with that to the show that could be amazing.

Finally, not really commercially available, the antique Western Electric systems are either transcendent or poor...it is never really clear what you get but when it is good...oh boy.


Some, not quite horns speakers (so, horn tweeter or just high sensitivity) that are good (again, IMO, as if it were otherwise) is Supravox (high sensitivity single drivers and multi-way open baffle at 96db) and Live Act Audio (their Ref 408 is pretty great sounding)

 

[morricab]

There is a distinct difference .

Its when i would start using terms as my speakers /system sounds like live unamplified music
i would have problem with such
I design stuff i like off course .

But i never state my speakers sound natural like live unamplified music would .
Because how on earth could i know.
I could say " i think " but thats basically it , same goes for anyone else

No system sounds indistinguishable from live unamplified music but there are definitely closer and further approaches...

 

[morricab]

SET / Horn propaganda , lol .
Which you appear to be selling .
Which is fine , you seem to have a business interest as well

I ve listened to this at a the dutch audio last year for about 2 songs and that was all i could handle .
THe JBL demo was one of the worst things i ve ever heard in audio

Please give me the best example which you think is the exact musical truth and i ll listen to that extensively in munich .
Living Voice ??


View attachment 89402


View attachment 89403

I was a lover of horns and SETs (I had horns back in University and SETs since 2005) long before I came to represent Aries Cerat. i became a importer for AC after having one for review (never published that one because I became an importer...I care about conflict of interest). It is not my day job (pharma development), it is from a passion for the products, which synchronized nicely with the direction I had already been going for a long time...they are also the only brand I sell (no smorgasbord for all tastes here).

 

[Amir]

Human Brain does not process music data like stereophile measurements.
I do not say horn/set is better than other topology but "higher distortion of set/horn" does not mean set/horn is worse to consider.

comparing live music with reproduced sound (by stereo system) is not good idea but if i want to think about it then i vote for dynamics.
Good Horns like Living Voice reproduce life like dynamics.

most audiophiles prefer to listen to more resolution but few audiophiles prefer listen to more dynamic like horns.

 

[andromedaaudio]

No system sounds indistinguishable from live unamplified music but there are definitely closer and further approaches...

Morricab , why make such a fuzz about my opinion
First of all Me / My system isnt even capable of distinguishing cable differences , plus i cant even design LS without measurement gear .
Afaic my opinion is completely irrelevant and i m the lowest of lowest grade audiop(h)ile , lol

 

[morricab]

Morricab , why make such a fuzz about my opinion
First of all Me / My system isnt even capable of distinguishing cable differences , plus i cant even design LS without measurement gear .
Afaic my opinion is completely irrelevant and i m the lowest of lowest grade audiop(h)ile , lol

THat wasn't directed only at you...

 

[andromedaaudio]

THat wasn't directed only at you...

No i know , i was just joking a bit .

 

[Alrainbow]

Vitus, Boulder. I would also use Dag. Many combos to drive the Apogee, all preferred over a valve. I have never really compared Dart to anything

Dart don't do low z well regardless what they say. But in the higher imp low feed back they do rule I think

 

[Alrainbow]

I Love horns right up until I don't lol. My room is bigger then that venue you were at .
I can agree to most of the original posting except where it's how it can be played back.
I had players at my place a few times man it's depressing.
But my setup far from perfect is much better then before.
I have thousands of watts ss all not kidding . For it to get close it must be played loud 80 to 95 db at this level there is far more detail , harmonics
The room must be alive but not shout back . A tricky objective to attain . At this level of loudness the sound scape varies greatly at seating
My couch is 9 feet back , but at 15 to 25 feet back the sound is very different . To have the live level of sound 9 feet is a must at this level n distance there here . Back further I'm there.
I do agree very few systems.can get close , I can't say tubes or ss watts needed. I think it comes to distance and size of room. A large room need large drivers how much power above my pay grade. But there are plenty of math needed to understand.
Loud in a room is not the same as loud right at you . A large room disepates the acoustic energy so it don't seem loud
Do this in a smaller room it's very different. Regarding the cart and cart . I can see your point a great phono pre is a must , but a combo of both all the better.