Live music, Tone and Presence: What most systems get wrong

[andromedaaudio]

The NAT SE2SE was superior to the CAt JL2. Signature and is a closer like for like comparison.

To your ears !!!!!!!!!!

You horn people cant seem to get that

 

[morricab]

To your ears !!!!!!!!!!

You horn people cant seem to get that

It was on Apogees...

Not just my ears...they weren’t even my amps.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Not just my ears

 

[morricab]

View attachment 89352

You seem to have it backwards. Box speakers and high powered SS amps are most definitely following the herd and have been for 40 years. Horn/SET is by far the road less taken...and almost always after having been part of that herd for a long time. It often comes with a heavy dose of live unamplified music exposure that may sink in right away or may take longer and then a revelation of a listening experience.

It takes realization that something ain't right in hifi land to go away from the Stereophile or Absolute sound recommendations of Magico, Wilson et. al and Pass, Soulution, CH, D'Agostino, Boulder etc. Your speakers, as nice as they clearly are, do not fundamentally offer something over these other well known brands.

 

[christoph]

Yes, the setup in 2014 was truly transcendent...probably the best, most realistic sound I have ever heard...period.

Even better than the years after?

 

[morricab]

Even better than the years after?

Yes, actually I think so...there were some other choice years but I think that might have been the pinnacle...

 

[microstrip]

i think the best sound forever was Living Voice horn/kondo/CEC in munich high end 2014 .
between SS designers the Vitus designer (hans-ole) is in the same direction .

Here we can find a report on it

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2014/05/31/high-end-2014-the-voice-of-gods-courtesy-of-living-voice/

I was so impressed on reports about this particular system that when, after a copious saturdaty lunch, a known friendly high-end distributor told me he had got a mint boxed latest version Kondo DSL DAC in part-exchange I immediately got a deal on it it! Just in case ...

 

[morricab]

Here we can find a report on it

https://parttimeaudiophile.com/2014/05/31/high-end-2014-the-voice-of-gods-courtesy-of-living-voice/

I was so impressed on reports about this particular system that when, after a copious saturdaty lunch, a known friendly high-end distributor told me he had got a mint boxed latest version Kondo DSL DAC in part-exchange I immediately got a deal on it it! Just in case ...

Yeah you were just missing some of the important bits...

 

[microstrip]

Yeah you were just missing some of the important bits...

Yes, but one never knows about the future ... Also, in this hobby we should have an open mind and some imagination - perhaps some day I will find someone wanting to swap Lamm's for Kondos's!

 

[the sound of Tao]

To your ears !!!!!!!!!!

You horn people cant seem to get that

Andro lately you have been going on more and more taking shots at ‘horn’ people like there’s only just ‘one’ uniform group of them. Reality is that horns are quite characteristically divergent and equally there’s not one type of horn person. There are many variations and very different bases for horn or planer or box and cone preferences. This singular ‘horn ‘ people thing seems to have become something of a mantra and an obsession for you. It’s a misdirect… and yes I also get that this kind of position comes also from some who prefer horns more generally or some SET lovers as well.

Not everyone gets as caught up in the constant drawing of ‘group’ divisions or an over emphasis of distinctions and an overly simplistic naming (and shaming) of different apparent groups of listeners. Sometimes it’s all too convenient to clump I guess.

But for us as a big and diverse group of listeners then having some constantly go on a relentless targeted derisive and divisive spill against other’s preferences or opinions really misses the essential point that there are a very diverse range of reasons why any of us are drawn to any kind of gear, be it some types of horns, or some kinds of box and cone speakers or some types of planers.

For some there could be a broader attraction to a topology, or for some it’s about very particular models or some brands or eras of design or whatever. All the ‘horn people’ don’t fit a uniform box any more than all horns sound at all the same. Exactly the same as with dynamic box and cone or planer types of speakers. They have a characteristic range that reflects designers inspirations, aims and approaches and even concepts for brand signatures. All different, all with a range of potentials and constraints, all with various natures. Much like us.

 

[morricab]

Yes, but one never knows about the future ... Also, in this hobby we should have an open mind and some imagination - perhaps some day I will find someone wanting to swap Lamm's for Kondos's!

No that can't be possible..can it...?

 

[bonzo75]

Yes, but one never knows about the future ... Also, in this hobby we should have an open mind and some imagination - perhaps some day I will find someone wanting to swap Lamm's for Kondos's!

It will be awesome then that you will get to hear both these amps at home matched to a speaker they cannot properly drive

 

[andromedaaudio]

Andro lately you have been going on more and more taking shots at ‘horn’ people l

I think i have been quit consistent over the years .

Not everyone gets as caught up in the constant drawing of ‘group’ divisions or an over emphasis of distinctions and an overly simplistic naming (and shaming) of different apparent groups of listeners.

Its when horn people start making absolute statements about audio products thats what s get my attention .

Its a bit of a nasty group in general imo.
Audio should be about listening pleasure not about proving a point

 

[tima]

I had not seen this thread - nice that it is revived.

Bonzo - you should have a version of your Ode to Joy recording that starts ~ 4:00 and blacks out the screen.

 

[the sound of Tao]

I think i have been quit consistent over the years .



Its when horn people start making absolute statements about audio products thats what s get my attention .

Its a bit of a nasty group in general imo.
Audio should be about listening pleasure not about proving a point

Consistently unfair perhaps… calling all people who like horns nasty is perhaps something more of a reflection of things about you rather than others.

But I’ve said my bit and you yours and disinterested in discussing this topic further with you if that’s how you view all the people here who share preferences for various horns.

 

[andromedaaudio]

The NAT SE2SE was superior to the CAt JL2. Signature and is a closer like for like comparison.

For example this statement Sound of Tao .

I do think morricab is a likable guy , but stating this as an absolute is a bit nonsense off course .

If he would have said " i think " the NAT sounds more like live music , that would be another story.
Now he is assuming he knows something others dont know or are not capable of hearing

 

[morricab]

For example this statement Sound of Tao .

I do think morricab is a likable guy , but stating this as an absolute is a bit nonsense off course .

If he would have said " i think " the NAT sounds more like live music , that would be another story.
Now he is assuming he knows something others dont know or are not capable of hearing

Have you heard a NAT SE2SE amp at all? Have you heard it side-by-side with the CAT JL2 Signature? Have you heard either/both on Apogees and/or Genesis speakers (we had a pair of Genesis VI that we also tried them on)?

 

[PeterA]

I think i have been quit consistent over the years .



Its when horn people start making absolute statements about audio products thats what s get my attention .

Its a bit of a nasty group in general imo.
Audio should be about listening pleasure not about proving a point

Your thinking may be consistent over the years, put your posting against horn people in multiple threads seems to be getting more and more frequent and aggressive. You seem to make many absolute statements about horns and now the WBF “horn people” are all nasty. Lovely.

When you post graphs of the Horn Shoppe horn, are you not trying to prove a point? It sure seems so. I just find it surprising for a designer and manufacturer of one type of product to denigrate an entire competing product on a public forum.

 

[andromedaaudio]

When you post graphs of the Horn Shoppe horn, are you not trying to prove a point? It sure seems so.

The Horn Shoppe freq response graph is simply a fact .
Its simply not a accurate transducer
But it seems even posting simple facts gets people exited .

Im not saying all horns measure like this , its just an example

 

[PeterA]

The Horn Shoppe freq response graph is simply a fact .
Its simply not a accurate transducer
But it seems even posting simple facts gets people exited .

Im not saying all horns measure like this , its just an example

Yes I understand that Andromedaaudio, and Atkins illustrates that very thing in his sidebar.

My point was simple. Here are your own words: "Audio should be about listening pleasure not about proving a point". You seem very eager to prove a point by linking to Stereophile measurement section about a specific horn speaker example, and then state that it is a fact. That looks like a proof to me. With this "fact", you seem to imply that listening pleasure will not happen with a horn speaker that measure like that. I might agree with that implication, but you are still trying to prove a point, when audio should really be about listening pleasure. A minority of members here actually enjoy the horn/set approach to audio and are certainly having lots of pleasure. And if you follow the posting, you will see the people are really talking about very specific horn speakers and amplifier pairings. Just like with other speaker types, the discussion doesn’t seem to be in general terms but about specific examples.

I don’t see turntable manufacturers posting links to measurements for competing turntables. Same with electronics and cable manufacturers. I think that would really shake things up.

Live Music, Tone, and Presence: What most systems get wrong. This is a nice thread topic from Brad. The title does not say anything about horn based systems.