LFE channel?

[edorr]

I am toying with the idea of consolidating my MCH system to 4.0. One advantage is I could run all my channels through my 4 channel Trinnov processor (currently runnng my surrounds in pass through mode, then into external DAC). However, I currently map my LFE to mains in the Trinnov, and to free up the channel, I would need to do this at the source. It appears the Oppo cannot do this.

Someone on another forum told me all LFE channel information is completely redundant with low frequency information on the mains, so all LFE effectively does is boost the low frequencies. If this is indeed the case (please confirm / refute), could I achieve the same results as mapping LFE to mains, by simply boosting my frequencies below 80hz on the mains using the Trinnov?

For a mix withouth LFE, I would need a separate preset without this bass boost, but this can be configured easily in Trinnov. Any MCH experts here that can chime in.

 

[DonH50]

Not sure about the Oppo, but if you tell it (or any AVR) there is no sub the the LFE content will be routed to the L/R pair.

 

[edorr]

Not sure about the Oppo, but if you tell it (or any AVR) there is no sub the the LFE content will be routed to the L/R pair.

Exactly. I was quite suprised / dismayed the Oppo cannot do this. The only reason I need to do it at the sources is to free up a processing channel on my Trinnov.

 

[Robh3606]

The only real issue I see running LFE in your mains is if they can handle it. Put on something like Master and Commander or the new Tron. You can get some truely punnishing low end depending on the source material. Depending on your speaker type it could mess up your dialog especially with no center speaker. If you have full range speakers that can take the LFE abuse and not fall apart through the midrange all is well. Also depends on you levels for playback THX or Lower??

Rob

 

[edorr]

The only real issue I see running LFE in your mains is if they can handle it. Put on something like Master and Commander or the new Tron. You can get some truely punnishing low end depending on the source material. Depending on your speaker type it could mess up your dialog especially with no center speaker. If you have full range speakers that can take the LFE abuse and not fall apart through the midrange all is well. Also depends on you levels for playback THX or Lower??

Rob

I have 2 x 15" active woofers on each side. I should not have a problem. I've been doing it since I acquired the speakers with no problem.

 

[DonH50]

My 83 allows me to set the sub to "off"... I am not using the analog outputs (well, just the stereo pair) so cannot confirm if LFE is properly routed to the mains if there is no sub. Have you emailed Oppo? A test disc would also confim if LFE is routed to the L/R speakers if the sub is off.

 

[edorr]

My 83 allows me to set the sub to "off"... I am not using the analog outputs (well, just the stereo pair) so cannot confirm if LFE is properly routed to the mains if there is no sub. Have you emailed Oppo? A test disc would also confim if LFE is routed to the L/R speakers if the sub is off.

I have a guy on the AVS forum with Oppo beta tester signature giving me this info. I can ping Oppo directly. Yes, if I run a test LFE signal on a setup disc on the Oppo, I can find out if LFE is routed to mains, or just disappears.

 

[DonH50]

I'd ping Oppo, they have always responded well to emails or calls for me,and given me the info straight (even the time it did not put their player in a good light).

 

[edorr]

I'd ping Oppo, they have always responded well to emails or calls for me,and given me the info straight (even the time it did not put their player in a good light).

Just did. Lets see what they have to say....

answer (that was quick!):

> No, if the subwoofer is turned Off, the .1 / LFE information will be discarded. If you select No for the Center channel, its audio will be mixed into the Front Left and Front Right channels.

Oh well....

 

[DonH50]

Rats. I suppose you could use a summing circuit though that is starting to get complicated...

 

[mojave]

Someone on another forum told me all LFE channel information is completely redundant with low frequency information on the mains, so all LFE effectively does is boost the low frequencies. If this is indeed the case (please confirm / refute), could I achieve the same results as mapping LFE to mains, by simply boosting my frequencies below 80hz on the mains using the Trinnov?

No, the LFE isn't redundant with info on the mains. The ratio of content on the LFE vs mains is different with each movie so just boosting the lower frequencies on the mains won't replicate the real content.

Why don't you use the C.A.P.S. Zuma and an external Blu-ray drive and used it for media playback? You can setup separate zones in JRiver for different routing and audio output for music vs movies.

I had a chance to play around with a Carbon and Red Wine Audio battery a couple weeks ago and I hated its lack of processing capability. I'm glad you are getting the Zuma.

 

[mojave]

Can the Oppo downmix to stereo and the Trinnov upmix to 4.0? If so, you get the bass all routed to the front speakers to start with and then the Trinnov can recreate the surround channels. It really won't be much different than the discreet surrounds, but you get a much better mix for the mains with all levels properly balanced.

 

[Nyal Mellor]

No, the LFE isn't redundant with info on the mains. The ratio of content on the LFE vs mains is different with each movie so just boosting the lower frequencies on the mains won't replicate the real content.

Why don't you use the C.A.P.S. Zuma and an external Blu-ray drive and used it for media playback? You can setup separate zones in JRiver for different routing and audio output for music vs movies.

I had a chance to play around with a Carbon and Red Wine Audio battery a couple weeks ago and I hated its lack of processing capability. I'm glad you are getting the Zuma.

Another amazing feature of JRiver I don't know about! I will see if I can set up zones tonight! That would be great because at the moment I have to manually change from one sound output to another. I'm using a single PC for both music and movies. I used a Streacom chassis but one that fits an optical drive. It plays back Blu=Rays great. Presently I am using two soundcards - an internal Lynx AES16e to get 12 digital channels out for movies and a USB / SPDIF converter for music.

With Jriver you can mix LFE into the L/Rs.

 

[Roger Dressler]

Can the Oppo downmix to stereo and the Trinnov upmix to 4.0? If so, you get the bass all routed to the front speakers to start with and then the Trinnov can recreate the surround channels. It really won't be much different than the discreet surrounds, but you get a much better mix for the mains with all levels properly balanced.

Not sure which upmixer you have in mind, but the ones I know about will not prevent the bass from spreading to the rears. Trinnov does not have a surround decoder, and its remapping will not achieve the desired discreteness.

 

[edorr]

No, the LFE isn't redundant with info on the mains. The ratio of content on the LFE vs mains is different with each movie so just boosting the lower frequencies on the mains won't replicate the real content.

Why don't you use the C.A.P.S. Zuma and an external Blu-ray drive and used it for media playback? You can setup separate zones in JRiver for different routing and audio output for music vs movies.

I had a chance to play around with a Carbon and Red Wine Audio battery a couple weeks ago and I hated its lack of processing capability. I'm glad you are getting the Zuma.

The Zuma only has a USB output. I could not get MCH audio out of it. For this I would have to build a media server with MCH AES/EBU output card, like Nyal is using. I am considering doing this, but dread taking on the project (which involves ripping my BRs and SACDs). I already bought a PS3 for SACD ripping though, so I might do it evenutally. I would still run my 2 channel in the Zuma (with ot without Dirac Live), since I expect it to be better than a a comobined 2 channel / MCH server with video build in.

 

[edorr]

Can the Oppo downmix to stereo and the Trinnov upmix to 4.0? If so, you get the bass all routed to the front speakers to start with and then the Trinnov can recreate the surround channels. It really won't be much different than the discreet surrounds, but you get a much better mix for the mains with all levels properly balanced.

Interesting idea. The Trinnov would use the remapping feature. As per Rogers comment, I do think you get something quite different from the original content on the discrete surround channels though.

It looks like I may have to work within the limitations of the technology. For starters, I will try to find out if mapping the center channel to my mains is better / equivalent / worse than using the center channel, and then plan my next move. I may end up using 3 channels on the Trinnov (FR/FL/Sub) and continue to use another DAC for my surround channels.

 

[mojave]

The Zuma only has a USB output. I could not get MCH audio out of it. For this I would have to build a media server with MCH AES/EBU output card, like Nyal is using. I am considering doing this, but dread taking on the project (which involves ripping my BRs and SACDs). I already bought a PS3 for SACD ripping though, so I might do it evenutally. I would still run my 2 channel in the Zuma (with ot without Dirac Live), since I expect it to be better than a a comobined 2 channel / MCH server with video build in.

I assumed you were using HDMI out from your OPPO. You can use HDMI out from the Zuma which supports multi-channel audio. You don't have to rip Blu-rays if you have a drive attached. I playback Blu-rays all the time directly from disc.

 

[mojave]

Another amazing feature of JRiver I don't know about! I will see if I can set up zones tonight!

After you setup your zones, use ZoneSwitch (Player > Zones > ZoneSwitch) to automatically switch zones based on your criteria. I have a music zone, a 720P movie zone, and a 1080p movie zone. I could add a multi-channel music zone. You can have multiple zones using the same audio outputs, but set to stop other zones from playing. You can condition the zones based on tags or formulas. Just to try things out, I made a movie zone that uses dynamic compression after 8 pm. If I start playback after 8 pm it goes to that zone. If playback is started before 8 pm it goes to the normal movie zone. I had help from user MrC at Interact for the formula. Here is the criteria: [=Compare(FormatDate(Now(), H), <=, 20)]=1 [Media Type]=[Video]

 

[edorr]

I assumed you were using HDMI out from your OPPO. You can use HDMI out from the Zuma which supports multi-channel audio. You don't have to rip Blu-rays if you have a drive attached. I playback Blu-rays all the directly from disc.

Unfortunately, still won't work for me with a Zumo. Mu Oppo is modded, and outputs 4 x S/PDIF, which I feed digitally into the Trinnov (which has no HDMI). So to get this to work, I still need a server for MCH with AES/EBU outs. If I did this and played Blu Rays from a Drive, how would I do the mapping of LFE and center to mains if I want to try a 4.0 setup?

 

[mojave]

I think the Lynx AES16e card will fit in the Zuma, but then you can't use the USB card if you desire it also. You can buy an HDMI to AES converter.

In JRiver's DSP Studio you set Output Mode to 5.1, activate JRSS mixing, and check "Move Center to Front L/R." Then in Parametric Equalizer you add "Adjust the Volume" and increase the LFE by 4 dB (since your are adding to two channels you don't need +10dB). In "Mix Channels" add the LFE to the right and left channels. If you wanted, you could copy the rear channels to the User channels, add high pass filters to the surrounds, and add low pass filtered content from the user channels to the mains. This routes the lower bass from the surrounds to the mains. Finally, I would move the surrounds from channels 5 & 6 to channels 3 (center) and 4 (sub) so you could use the first two pairs of AES output.