Is there something obviously wrong with my electrical?

[BlueFox]

MF

Really, 4 pages of consternation on what is obviously mis spec'd isolation devices and you're still trying to rationalize why they are OK for your system?? Worried about the cost of an electrician ?? PLEASE. Get your guy over, bypass the crappy isolation and get on with it.........

Yes. He needs to install dedicated lines with none of these isolation gizmos. After some period of time he will then have a baseline for sound quality. At that point he can try adding them back and find out if it helps, hurts, or has no affect.

 

[MadFloyd]

MF

Really, 4 pages of consternation on what is obviously mis spec'd isolation devices and you're still trying to rationalize why they are OK for your system?? Worried about the cost of an electrician ?? PLEASE. Get your guy over, bypass the crappy isolation and get on with it.........

I'm not trying to rationalize anything. I get that the isolation transformer is under spec'd. I'm trying to understand if and how this could affect the tonal balance (i.e. lack of weight that I'm hearing) or whether it would just affect performance at loud volumes. I don't control how many people respond and the number of pages of this thread, nor do I care to. If you don't like it, stay the heck out.

 

[Kingsrule]

Come on MF. Really?
Your amps are basically maxed out now at idle with the Equi tech setup you have now and your worried about loud volumes and tonal balance? You haven't heard them without current limiting at any volume. You have no base line at all to make any judgements on your amps performance. 4 pages and you still don't understand? The funny thing here is with all your changes from Alexia to S5 to M Project, wires, cables, etc. none of them have any validity because your fundamental issue might be the current your amps aren't getting? I'd be begging the electrician to get over and bypass the Equi tech's and resolve it once and for all. Might be the best $300 you will spend on the system. (BTW didn't Caelin Gabriel tell you as much awhile ago?? Smart man that Caelin....)

 

[MadFloyd]

Come on MF. Really?
Your amps are basically maxed out now at idle with the Equi tech setup you have now and your worried about loud volumes and tonal balance? You haven't heard them without current limiting at any volume. You have no base line at all to make any judgements on your amps performance. 4 pages and you still don't understand? The funny thing here is with all your changes from Alexia to S5 to M Project, wires, cables, etc. none of them have any validity because your fundamental issue might be the current your amps aren't getting? I'd be begging the electrician to get over and bypass the Equi tech's and resolve it once and for all. Might be the best $300 you will spend on the system. (BTW didn't Caelin Gabriel tell you as much awhile ago?? Smart man that Caelin....)

What a little snot you are. No, I still don't fully understand. I'm obviously dense. I have no background at all in electrical engineering and the isloation transformers I installed in my system was advice from an engineer on this forum whom I greatly respected. What seems obvious to you isn't obvious to others. Your superior knowledge is no excuse for poor manners though.

But hey, I'm happy to let you win. I'll stop asking questions.

To everyone else, thanks for trying to help a numbskull like me.

Mods, feel free to close this thread. I'm done here.

 

[Steve Williams]

C'mob guys. I find this thread to be quite informative

To Kingsrule, I believe that Floyd is asking legitimate questions about his system and is looking to be educated. Please challenge the post and not the poster.

Floyd, I understand your frustration.

 

[DonH50]

Actually I don't want MF to be done here, I want to follow along to the final solution. It is clear to me there is a power problem given all that's been presented; it is not clear to me that is the root cause of his tonal balance issue, or even a major contributor. This is the sort of thing a lot of audiophiles do not understand well and MF's experience will be invaluable to them as well to us more technical types. I want to see how theory and practice align.

FWIWFM - Don

 

[Orb]

Actually I don't want MF to be done here, I want to follow along to the final solution. It is clear to me there is a power problem given all that's been presented; it is not clear to me that is the root cause of his tonal balance issue, or even a major contributor. This is the sort of thing a lot of audiophiles do not understand well and MF's experience will be invaluable to them as well to us more technical types. I want to see how theory and practice align.

FWIWFM - Don

+1
I would prefer to work through the problem, although we all know what it is most likely to be; some great suggestions so far to test and possibilities moving forward with a solution.
Cheers
Orb

 

[garylkoh]

+1

Let's work through the problem.

The "obvious" culprit seems to be the isolation transformer, but that may not be the only problem - from the OP, the response of the left and right channels are quite different and IMHO should not be ignored.

MadFloyd - we are all trying to help you here.

 

[mbskeam]

think of the elec source as water going thru a valve (transformer)
with the valve only turned on 1/4 of the way you will get flow(voltage) but no pressure/volume (current)
open the water valve more (bigger transformer) and you get more pressure=current, voltage stays the same.
thats how I understand this.

 

[zztop7]

safe period

I just purchased two 50' 10 gauge extension cords. I'm not sure it's cheaper than getting my electrician to bypass the transformer but at least I try it on my own (thanks zz).

Another very simple system for you to consider.
For a period of time use the 10 gauge cords, BUT when no music is happening [& lightning storms] - Unplug the Cords.
Thus, no spikes, no surges during the unplugged period.
With my system that would be a 98% safe period [unfortunate, but very busy].
zz

 

[Jim Smith]

+1

The "obvious" culprit seems to be the isolation transformer, but that may not be the only problem - from the OP, the response of the left and right channels are quite different and IMHO should not be ignored.

Agreed.

 

[KeithR]

Seems to make sense to just bypass with extension cords first.

Although I'm puzzled why you didn't have these issues with the S5s, which are pretty power hungry themselves.

I agree that something may be wired out of phase...

 

[KeithR]

Yes. He needs to install dedicated lines with none of these isolation gizmos. After some period of time he will then have a baseline for sound quality. At that point he can try adding them back and find out if it helps, hurts, or has no affect.

No offense Bud, but isolation transformers are part of a baseline for sound quality and recommended by most EEs.

Stop chirping about your Shunyata solution that isn't applicable here and now.

 

[BlueFox]

No offense Bud, but isolation transformers are part of a baseline for sound quality and recommended by most EEs.

Stop chirping about your Shunyata solution that isn't applicable here and now.

LOL. Another thread police individual. I didn't realize a dedicated circuit for each amp is a Shunyata solution. I wonder how much they make off of them?

 

[Btselect]

I checked the Pass Labs website and your amp draws 4.6 amps at idle (4.6 x 2 = 9.2), so your transformer only supplies 8.4 amps, need I so more.
Sorry missed the info about the 2kVA trans. The amp still draws 50 amps at full power, so you should get at least 2 dedicated circuits, one for each amp, and see if hear an improvement. With just that one 20 amp circuit I don't think getting a larger trans will solve your problem.

 

[Al M.]

I checked the Pass Labs website and your amp draws 4.6 amps at idle (4.6 x 2 = 9.2), so your transformer only supplies 8.4 amps, need I so more.
Sorry missed the info about the 2kVA trans. The amp still draws 50 amps at full power, so you should get at least 2 dedicated circuits, one for each amp, and see if hear an improvement. With just that one 20 amp circuit I don't think getting a larger trans will solve your problem.

I am afraid your info is not quite correct. The max. output of amps is 50, not the maximum draw of power from the outlet which would be at 110 V (and which is not the output voltage of the amps):

https://passlabs.com/images/uploads/manual/Point8_specs.pdf

But that doesn't say at how much voltage that is; the max voltage output is 56 V, but the manual doesn't say at how many amps (peaks in amp and voltage output need not coincide). The power consumption is specified at 550 W, but the manual doesn't say if that is at idle or full output. I think Ian could get some clue from the gauge (thickness) of the original power chord in the box for how much kVA power draw it is designed. But in any case, I guess a call to the factory is needed.

 

[Orb]

I am afraid your info is not quite correct. The max. output of amps is 50, not the maximum draw of power from the outlet which would be at 110 V (and which is not the output voltage of the amps):

https://passlabs.com/images/uploads/manual/Point8_specs.pdf

But that doesn't say at how much voltage that is; the max voltage output is 56 V, but the manual doesn't say at how many amps (peaks in amp and voltage output need not coincide). The power consumption is specified at 550 W, but the manual doesn't say if that is at idle or full output. I think Ian could get some clue from the gauge (thickness) of the original power chord in the box for how much kVA power draw it is designed. But in any case, I guess a call to the factory is needed.

The spec sheet shows the 550W is idle power consumption, which will equate roughly to 4.6A idle.
That said, until it is actually measured this real world factor might be actually lower and further compounded by how loud MF plays the music (it may or may not be sliding/transitioning into AB and greater consumption).
Still too early to say if this is part of the issue or not, but will be easy to tell by using the kill-a-watt that (he is purchasing) when both amps are on and repeat with only one amp on (or with both bypassing the transformer); checking at different loudnesses including the point MF feels something is lacking.
What MF is describing IMO is not the very short interim dynamic transient swings, although it is probable this is being influenced by the spec of the transformer.

Cheers
Orb

 

[MadFloyd]

Update:

The extension cords arrived yesterday along with the Kill-A-Watt meter.

I plugged the extension cords into two separate 20 amp circuits in my kitchen. Sound was drastically different. Much fuller, darker. Midrange had more weight. Female voices sounded full-bodied etc. Background wasn't very 'black', it was sort of muddy and bass wasn't very textured but overall on the right track.

Of course everytime I've installed new power cords (or even outlets) I get somewhat similar results (overly thick & muddy) until some break-in happens, so the real question was "am I hearing the results of more power, brand new 50' extension cords, or both?"

I left the amps on overnight and this morning listened again. Better, much more engaging even though I wouldn't call the sound quality great (still muddy) and I'm not sure I'm getting the dynamics I should be (but I'm not sure). So with a lot of trepidation, I did the real test - unplugged the extensions from the kitchen outlets and plugged them into the outlets in my listening room supplied by the transformer, praying that I wouldn't hear the same thing. Immediately the sound was thinner in the midrange. Yay.

The quality of the sound is still better through the transformer - i.e. backgrounds more black, so my takeaways are:
1) the transformer does clean up the sound
2) the transformer changes the tonal balance (I assume it's because it's underpowered but I have no experience with one that isn't underpowered)
3) installing two dedicated 20 amp circuits will most likely result in proper tonal balance, but I may not have the cleanliness that I want. Maybe the Shunyata products will help here (previously the Triton didn't make any difference and the Typhon was a mixed bag).

I did try the Kill-A-Watt meter but I couldn't get it to tell me anything other than voltage (I haven't had a chance to read the instructions yet to see if there's a way I can see amperage). It read 123 volts with one amp on and 119 with both on.

Thanks again for the guidance.

 

[zztop7]

Update:

The extension cords arrived yesterday
Thanks again for the guidance.

You are welcome!
I am glad you purchased the 10 gauge [probably overkill vs. 12 gauge]; at least you will not be concerned whether you are having adequate electricity to components.
Please, do not forget to unplug them when you are not listening; maximum spike & surge protection then.
An experiment to consider: run one or both cords to other outlets, whether 15 or 20 Amps / try breakers on the same side of the panel, then try breakers on opposing sides.
Best to you,
zz.

 

[Orb]

MadFloyd,
just read the manual and this is what it says to change the measurement, so you can show Current (amps)/Watts/VA

Measurement display:
1. To display the various available power measurements press the MENU key until “Volt” is displayed on the LCD. In the Measurement display mode, the
LCD can display meter readings such as Volts, Current, Watts, Frequency, Power Factor, and VA.

2. To cycle through the various measurements press the UP and DOWN key as desired. The measurement unit currently selected will be indicated in the display.

3. Volts are displayed in Volts (true RMS), Current is displayed in Amps (true RMS), Watts are displayed in active power Watts, VA is displayed in apparent power VA (VA=Vrms*Arms),
Frequency is displayed in Hertz (Hz), Power Factor (P.F.) is displayed as (Watts/Vrms*Arms).

Cheers
Orb