IS there an absolute sound?

[MylesBAstor]

Here is the Q Sound album list. To bad there is not more

http://www.qsound.com/spotlight/users/recording-artists.htm

Hello Ron

I have had a couple of instances where I got so wrapped up in things I felt I was in the crowd. I agree about Multichannel if anythings going to get you there I think that's the best bet.

Rob

Time to stick a fork in it? Nothing done with Q-sound in the last decade

 

[Steve Williams]

I have most of Michael Stearns' albums

 

[NorthStar]

Who's got this CD?

=> Click on it for info +++

Because my copy doesn't indicate (anywhere inside or out) that it was recorded in QSound.

Perhaps it was badly executed? Wouldn't be so surprising.
But then, it's a great album (recorded well enough by Joe Blaney, John Leventhal & Mark Plati),
and mixed by Bob Clearmountain, and finally mastered by Bob Ludwig @ Gateway Mastering Studios (1996).

P.S. Yes me too Steve, got few Michael Stearns' CDs.

 

[fas42]

To continue on the theme of captured space, without necessitating such to be specifically encoded on the channel mix in some fashion, I have on at the moment Prokofiev's Violin Concerto No.2, CD from the BBC, of a live mono recording done in 1936! The sense of space around the soloist is quite magical, with superb tone, while the orchestra is way, way back in the recording venue; the "murmuring" of the space has been nicely captured, with plenty of height; all the acoustic cues are there.

So if one's system is up to it, even seemingly unpromising recordings can deliver quite magical stuff ...

Frank

 

[Robert]

To continue on the theme of captured space, without necessitating such to be specifically encoded on the channel mix in some fashion, I have on at the moment Prokofiev's Violin Concerto No.2, CD from the BBC, of a live mono recording done in 1936! The sense of space around the soloist is quite magical, with superb tone, while the orchestra is way, way back in the recording venue; the "murmuring" of the space has been nicely captured, with plenty of height; all the acoustic cues are there.

So if one's system is up to it, even seemingly unpromising recordings can deliver quite magical stuff ...

Frank

This is now my experience. Every respectable recording has all the information necessary to hear the space. And by respectable, I mean recorded in a real performing space, all musicians present, and a deft hand in not over-manipulating the sound post-performance. Each recording is different, but all the information is present if your source, speakers, and system can extract it.

Music performed in pieces within an acoustically dead space, as may be the norm in popular recordings, will typically never have the chance. They are entirely man-made constructs. Some may be pleasant in their own right, but they are quite distinct from a live performance.

I have sonatas played in a hall and sonatas played in a recording studio. It is easy for me to tell the difference. Recording studios have alot of dampening material - you get a more immediate and clear sound but with minimal decay into space.

I agree with holographic sound is not a definition of absolute sound, but just one component. It is not everyone's goal, but as someone who loves classical music, I have spent a couple years seeking cables which preserve the sense of space and decay. I have heard cables specifically remove this element - the dreaded black background effect. Every space makes a noise, even when no one is playing.

 

[MylesBAstor]

This is now my experience. Every respectable recording has all the information necessary to hear the space. And by respectable, I mean recorded in a real performing space, all musicians present, and a deft hand in not over-manipulating the sound post-performance. Each recording is different, but all the information is present if your source, speakers, and system can extract it.

Music performed in pieces within an acoustically dead space, as may be the norm in popular recordings, will typically never have the chance. They are entirely man-made constructs. Some may be pleasant in their own right, but they are quite distinct from a live performance.

I have sonatas played in a hall and sonatas played in a recording studio. It is easy for me to tell the difference. Recording studios have alot of dampening material - you get a more immediate and clear sound but with minimal decay into space.

I agree with holographic sound is not a definition of absolute sound, but just one component. It is not everyone's goal, but as someone who loves classical music, I have spent a couple years seeking cables which preserve the sense of space and decay. I have heard cables specifically remove this element - the dreaded black background effect. Every space makes a noise, even when no one is playing.

Not sure what you mean by respectable (and mind you, most sense of space on new digital classical recordings is faked). By your definition, I would say the number of albums with sense of space is indeed in the minority. Basically the only genres that are going to have a real sense of space are classical and live jazz recordings. Most jazz in the studio is dead with reverb added. Rock is all studio, but can have a sense of space when it's added like when you hear the tape of say Yes Fragile. The album misses, even on the Piros mastered version, 75% of the effects that are on the tape. Clearly, even Piros, mastered the LPs with the limitation of the worst tts in mind OK, I've left C/W out since rarely if ever listen to that unless want to slit my wrists

 

[NorthStar]

Who's got this CD?

=> Click on it for info +++

Because my copy doesn't indicate (anywhere inside or out) that it was recorded in QSound.

Perhaps it was badly executed? Wouldn't be so surprising.
But then, it's a great album (recorded well enough by Joe Blaney, John Leventhal & Mark Plati),
and mixed by Bob Clearmountain, and finally mastered by Bob Ludwig @ Gateway Mastering Studios (1996).

I listened to this CD last night, and it is NOT in QSound!

* And the recording quality is fake! With echo on the vocals (microphone effects), and overly dubbed tracks! And there is distortion on the lead singer's voice (harsh sounding) at times!
The bass is pretty good though, so is the main lead guitar (right speaker).
{Track #3 is my favorite track. And there are few more too with nice lead guitar and cool bass.}

But this is a 1996 Pop album, and has no ambiance, only studio productions.
It has no artistic value than just a bland and sterile studio recording.

I'll take a good Classical recording anytime of the week ... :b

 

[fas42]

Not sure what you mean by respectable (and mind you, most sense of space on new digital classical recordings is faked). By your definition, I would say the number of albums with sense of space is indeed in the minority. Basically the only genres that are going to have a real sense of space are classical and live jazz recordings. Most jazz in the studio is dead with reverb added. Rock is all studio, but can have a sense of space when it's added like when you hear the tape of say Yes Fragile. The album misses, even on the Piros mastered version, 75% of the effects that are on the tape. Clearly, even Piros, mastered the LPs with the limitation of the worst tts in mind OK, I've left C/W out since rarely if ever listen to that unless want to slit my wrists

I would beg to differ: most genres include excellent levels of space; on at the moment a CD collection of original Doo-Wop classic vocal recordings selected by Ken Kessler: "Book of Love", "Mr. Sandman", etc. These have a shimmering, richly resonant echoing of the voices in the recording space: you can virtually pull out a tape measure and read off a figure, of the size of the room.

Some of the worst offenders for killing the acoustic are audiophile recordings, especially classic: dead as a dodo in some cases ...

Frank

 

[Gregadd]

I would not call holographic imaging absolute sound , its merely a side effect from stereo reproduction .

Of course holographic imaging is but one component of the absolute sound. I merely responded to those claimed imaging was the misssing link.

 

[NorthStar]

Man! Think about it! The Absolute Sound!

What's that? Your sound? Mine? His? Hers? Theirs?

C'mon now, let's give ourselves a break! ...Good sound, bad sound, medium sound; alright.
But Absolute Sound! Yeah right. And Absolute compared to what exactly?

* Absolute means with total CERTITUDE (undeniable assertion), without any deviation from reality, PERFECT.
Then every sound is absolute. Every little whispering from a bird's wings is absolute.
Reproduction is not! It's a facsimile, an interpretation from a different medium, and by a different artist (a loudspeaker system).
But that Sound Reproduction is Absolute in itself. But only to a certain reality degree, because it sure ain't PERFECT!

 

[fas42]

Another way to put it, Bob, is that you, the listener, know that what you're hearing is what it sounded like at the time of the recording; even if that was totally in the bowels of a synthesizer's circuits. Of course it is subjective, but you never get the sense that something is wrong with the sound, it always sounds right . If you have a system where you put on a recording, especially one not familiar to you, and you don't feel at your ease completely with the sound then you haven't got what I would call "absolute sound".

Not at all saying this is what I have at any time, when I press the "GO" button, but I know that this is what the system should give. So, if I don't get that then I know something is wrong with the playback, I haven't got THAT sound. And all the "active listening" in the world is going to do an ounce of good convincing me that I have Nirvana; I may choose to focus in such a way that I enjoy the reproduction for what it's doing right, but at no time doing this do I believe I have "Absolute Sound".

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

Or simply put, Frank, I love Classical music, this guy next door likes Heavy Metal, that girl upstairs loves Celine Dion, and that other girl across the street likes sexy Jazz.

Now, each one of us have his/her own definition of 'Absolute' right?
I already gave mine.
You already gave yours.

Soooo, what's hers now? ...The one living across the street.
Is she seeing anything 'absolute' through her window?

I sure hope so, because she looks pretty 'absolute' through mine. :b

 

[Elliot G.]

THe absolute sound exists. I think that a few of you are confusing a recording with reality.
For example if I play a guitar in my living room that is the actual and absolute sound me playing the guitar in my living room.
A recording of such hopefully would approach the sound of this event to the best of our technology.
A system then of audio products would try to playback this recording such that it produced sound that attempted to recreate the event.This is as good as we can do.
If we say we like something that is made in a studio with all kinds of gadgets, and in many cases the musicians are not even in the same country when they record their parts this can NEVER be the absolute sound.
It is my thought that having some place to start with music that was recorded with as little added crap and in its simplest form could be a great place to start in the evaluation process of the audio system. The kind of music or the type of instrument may vary but the starting point is still a valid item.
What we like in music and it's perceived sound in our own minds based on a set of factors that we can not quantify, playing music we have never heard played as it is on the recording, in places we have never been can never be the absolute anything.
I do realize that in making such recordings that there are compromises. We need wires, cables, microphone etc. but without any starting point we can never do better than one man's opinion.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Well okay if you say it like that, i think also there is an absolute sound .
But i think a system can only acceptably recreate sound from furhter distance .
If you stand 1 meter of a good acoustic guitar player or violinist its clear a " high end system " is still far off .
But i admit that good sound " on call " also has its own charmes

h - j

 

[fas42]

Well okay if you say it like that, i think also there is an absolute sound .
But i think a system can only acceptably recreate sound from furhter distance .
If you stand 1 meter of a good acoustic guitar player or violinist its clear a " high end system " is still far off .

That's the case for the majority of systems. But it is possible to achieve that level of realism, but up to now it is not available as a plug and play solution. Only through great diligence and focused effort is one likely to achieve it. And that answers the question posted by the initiator of this thread: the fact that it is rarely experienced by audiophiles, only fleetingly by many, means for some that its existence is highly questionable.

Yes, decent systems create an impressive soundscape from a distance, with the "right" recordings. But as you say, this starts to fall apart as you increase the apparent volume, either by increasing the sound output, or by physically moving closer to the speaker. Personally, I find the normal technique of testing systems with very simple, very correct recordings to be almost worthless, they tell me virtually nothing about where the setup is deficient: it's how difficult, messy recordings are handled that is an easy giveaway as to the overall status of the audio capabilities.

Frank

 

[andromedaaudio]

I dont think it is possible to reach that level of realism , not with conventional voice coil /membrane/ box designs , the realm and detail of a near violin or acoustic guitar is still very different .
It has reached a high level but it is still not absolute
sound .
No matter what anybody says and systemprice and i have heard many .

 

[fas42]

The main "trouble" is that very few people have "got" there, and system price has only some bearing on it. The most important requirement is that a great deal of finicky attention to detail has to be applied, and you can't just get hold of this up at the corner store ...

Frank

 

[Robh3606]

The main "trouble" is that very few people have "got" there,

Hello Frank

Who determines if they "got" there?? How do you know for sure only very few people have "got" there. Becasue maybe you have not others have not either??

This whole absolute sound premise is based on our own subjective opinions. There may be many who "think" they "got" there. Who can argue that what they "think" is not real for them??

Rob

 

[Elliot G.]

THe question isn't whether we are there yet, clearly we are not.
I am suggesting that we work to develop some tools and pathways to measure the journey and to try to focus on the end result.
The method we use today is not helpful and in fact IMHO prevents us from ever making real progress.
I have heard a system or two that can fool you from what i have read here and what I have heard in my career and the comments about them I believe that we have done a terrible job showing the public what is truly possible.
I mean not insult to anyone when I say this, it's just the truth

 

[Robert]

THe question isn't whether we are there yet, clearly we are not.
I am suggesting that we work to develop some tools and pathways to measure the journey and to try to focus on the end result.
The method we use today is not helpful and in fact IMHO prevents us from ever making real progress.
I have heard a system or two that can fool you from what i have read here and what I have heard in my career and the comments about them I believe that we have done a terrible job showing the public what is truly possible.
I mean not insult to anyone when I say this, it's just the truth

Elliot, if you want to come to St. Louis and have a listen, you are invited. I'm not sure my wife would approve of someone who grew-up on the streets of NYC, but I won't tell her.

I would agree that a system wouldn't sound 100% like the actual performance, but I believe we are close.

I know you've heard alot of systems and have much knowledge. Perhaps I'm full of it. Maybe you will shame me in front of WBF. Who cares, as long as I learn something.