IS there an absolute sound?

[Elliot G.]

Perhaps the time has come to put a series of audio files on the web and use them as a reference. I think that the recordings should include not only music, but sounds common to all, doors slamming, cars going by, crowd sounds, the whole gamut of shared experiece. However, each audio file would have a description of the recording technique and would be "juried" so that it represents a valid acoustic moment and shows a facet of the listening experience. If we start a site (perhaps here) of common sounds and performance sounds, and people begin to use them in reviewing, we are starting a common discussion area-one not inhibited by accessing a particular record or audio file. This would not prevent anyone from using their favorite recordings or sounds in voicing their system-just a way to start a shared experience.

One of the discs I have used forever in the early stage of setting up a system is the XLO test disc with Roger Skoff and Keith Johnson. ON this disc ( sorry the disc is at my shop and I am not) there is a track with either Keith or Roger walking around a pair of cardoid mics. In my experience when he walks to the far left and far right the image shifts upward as he approaches the far side. This was very common with many of the older speakers I tried. I have since found with a few of the better and newer speakers that I can adjust the system so that his voice retains its sonic integrity. I mean by this the height and size do not change at all!
To me this is a very useful recording. There are a few other non music tracks as well that have sounds to use in getting the speaker positioned correctly in the room. IMO this is the most important thing in getting your system to work well is placeing the speakers correctly. There may be only 1 correct placement in any single room for any speaker!

 

[fas42]

Back in the real world, if I want to ascertain where a system is, and I have a couple of minutes to do it, I just put on a classic Status Quo track and wind up the volume. This instantly tells me whether the amplifier has any real credibility, and whether the system is capable of resolving high frequency content when the system is working hard, an absolutely key requirement for a high performance setup.

If the system fails this test, it will probably be a curate's egg; if it passes, then any and every recording will come up trumps ...

Frank

 

[Robh3606]

It's as if the end of the listening area directly in front of you completely disappears, and is now attached to the acoustic space encoded in the recording, whatever that was. This is all about the trick played by the ear/brain on your mind if fed with the right acoustic cues, but they have to be of sufficient quality, or otherwise manipulated, Ambisonics comes to mind, for your head to say internally, "OK, I'll go along with this illusion ..."

Hello Frank

I get that but all I am saying is I don't care how good the set-up is you are just not going to get a cathedral in your living room. 2 channel has it's limitations and one of them is fooling you to thinking you are in a large space. With all the sound coming from one direction and no real sources behind you can only get so far.

HT's do a much better job as far as a sense of space is concerned. At least you have solid direction clues from behind as well as in front.

Rob

 

[JackD201]

One of the discs I have used forever in the early stage of setting up a system is the XLO test disc with Roger Skoff and Keith Johnson. ON this disc ( sorry the disc is at my shop and I am not) there is a track with either Keith or Roger walking around a pair of cardoid mics. In my experience when he walks to the far left and far right the image shifts upward as he approaches the far side. This was very common with many of the older speakers I tried. I have since found with a few of the better and newer speakers that I can adjust the system so that his voice retains its sonic integrity. I mean by this the height and size do not change at all!
To me this is a very useful recording. There are a few other non music tracks as well that have sounds to use in getting the speaker positioned correctly in the room. IMO this is the most important thing in getting your system to work well is placeing the speakers correctly. There may be only 1 correct placement in any single room for any speaker!

That's been a similar experience of mine as well Elliot. It seems that, at least in my old room which hosted 4 different loudspeakers in its day, speakers "locked" in at basically the same L and R locations.

 

[fas42]

Hello Frank

I get that but all I am saying is I don't care how good the set-up is you are just not going to get a cathedral in your living room. 2 channel has it's limitations and one of them is fooling you to thinking you are in a large space. With all the sound coming from one direction and no real sources behind you can only get so far.

HT's do a much better job as far as a sense of space is concerned. At least you have solid direction clues from behind as well as in front.

Rob

Rob, I find it's a matter of quality. Of the sound, that is; when it gets to a certain level there is literally a step improvement in the "quality" of the illusion, and a huge sense of space will be developed, by the 2 channel setup. Part of the bundle is that the system has to be able to go loud with finesse, and that's where a lot of systems appear to struggle. They can do loud, without finesse, or vice versa; getting the two happening at the same time is trivially easy for "real" sound, pure murder for many systems ...

With volume you do get sound behind from the 2 channel, the reflections off the back wall do it nicely. But if the audio components are pumping out too much audible distortion while trying to do the "big" sound then it won't happen. In that case, yes, go multi-channel, to make it easier for all.

Frank

 

[NorthStar]

How many channels (loudspeakers), and subwoofers in the Absolute Sound?

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

On this forum, I once posted a piano scale diagnostic - every key of a Fazzioli grand piano played. That gives me a handle on how coherent the crossover, drivers are. If one note sounds much different from another note, or if a series of notes change tonality, then I know that I still have work to do. However, I cannot identify from the recording if the piano is a Fazzioli or a Steinway or a Bosendorfer. It just sounds like a piano.

Hmmm, funny, because I can tell a Steinway from other pianos easily. It has a very unique character, and a particular anomaly around middle C range, that hits me every time I hear it. Pianos all sound vastly different, some dark and heavy, some thin and brittle, some metallic, some zingy. Steinways have a nice balance of sound qualities, making them ideal for Classical music.


Close mikes.. ugh. The BANE of high fidelity. Still, many 'high end' recording companies insist on making those travesties of sound..

 

[garylkoh]

Hmmm, funny, because I can tell a Steinway from other pianos easily. It has a very unique character, and a particular anomaly around middle C range, that hits me every time I hear it. Pianos all sound vastly different, some dark and heavy, some thin and brittle, some metallic, some zingy. Steinways have a nice balance of sound qualities, making them ideal for Classical music.


Close mikes.. ugh. The BANE of high fidelity. Still, many 'high end' recording companies insist on making those travesties of sound..

On that particular recording, hand held mic, VERY close miked - almost at the string that was being struck.

On most recordings, I can tell the difference between pianos, but that particular one was not done for the purpose of "pleasant". It was done for the specific purpose of system evaluation.

 

[Mark (Basspig) Weiss]

On that particular recording, hand held mic, VERY close miked - almost at the string that was being struck.

On most recordings, I can tell the difference between pianos, but that particular one was not done for the purpose of "pleasant". It was done for the specific purpose of system evaluation.

Hand held mic for a test recording? The phase would be all over the place over time, since no hand can hold a mic really still.

 

[andromedaaudio]

Off course there is an absolute sound , lol.
http://cybwiz.blogspot.com/2011/03/andromeda-design-illusion-loudspeaker.html

 

[Elliot G.]

My feeling is that a properly set up system , among other things, should be a time machine. You are not going to bring a full orchestra into your sound room but the system should sometimes transport you to the place the music was recorded.
This can't happen with many recordings but it does happen with some great ones.
To the gentleman that said you can't do space with a two channel system al i ca n say is that your system doesn't work if you can't.

 

[Johnny Vinyl]

Neil Young's Massey Hall gives me that sense of space and also one of being in the audience (almost). I think that's about all I can expect, and that's not a bad thing to come to terms with.

 

[mep]

To the gentleman that said you can't do space with a two channel system al i ca n say is that your system doesn't work if you can't.

That sounds like something that Tom would say. Tom hates stereo. He refers to it as “POS” which supposedly means “Plain Old Stereo,” but we all know what Tom really means. Tom’s in love with the dead format of binaural recording which is for people who love headphones. I don’t think you guys will find much in common, but I do wonder if by chance you guys went to the same school and shared the same spelling teacher.

 

[Robh3606]

To the gentleman that said you can't do space with a two channel system al i ca n say is that your system doesn't work if you can't.

Might have been me as well. I questioned scale. A well set-up system certainly does give you a sense of space. That said I don't think it's a realistic one. Not saying it is not a pleasant illusion of it. If you relax you can get into that "space" and enjoy what's in front of you. The best rendering of space and scale I have ever heard is from multichannel recordings obviously played on an HT type set-up.

Hello Frank

IMHO a good HT set-up will be able to easily go loud as the dynamics in movies beat the pants off your average music recording. HT's also have much better dynamic linearity by design. They are designed to go "loud" and be able to do so from 20Hz and up. They can hit that magic 105db with room to spare across their entire bandwidth which few 2 channel systems can do. It's not just about quality, 2 channel has limitations and it's foolish not to recognize them.

Using the back reflections in your room is giving your brain the wrong input. Large space means longer time for the reflections as well as a different frequency mix due to absorption in the air and other factors.

Rob

 

[Elliot G.]

Tom, I probably agree with you that with the information we have on hand that creating a "perfect" illusion may not be possible. I can't say with any degree of probability that it will happen ever let alone in my lifetime.
I think however that we are getting two subjects intermixed.
The absolute sound and the sound of the system.
THere is an absolute sound however there may not be an absolute sound as produced by a system. We don't know if this is possible yet.
My first suggestion was to attempt to develop some tools to go down the path towards this goal. THis has gotten a mixed response and I really don't understand why no one would want to attept this.
If we don't set goals then how will we ever achieve what we all would like.
I guess there are some that are afraid, those that are satisdied with thier own choices and can defend them easily with there being no reference...who knows.
I will say to you that I have heard in a few locations some amazing systems that can produce amazing things. These few have showed me that it might be possible.
I can assure that you need a great room and this usually means one that is not a little one either.
Perfect no, creating an amazing illusion yes. Afterall for now a great illusion is All we can produce.

 

[MylesBAstor]

My feeling is that a properly set up system , among other things, should be a time machine. You are not going to bring a full orchestra into your sound room but the system should sometimes transport you to the place the music was recorded.
This can't happen with many recordings but it does happen with some great ones.
To the gentleman that said you can't do space with a two channel system al i ca n say is that your system doesn't work if you can't.

The problem is that few of us have been able to hear a system that really does that Elliot

 

[mep]

IMHO a good HT set-up will be able to easily go loud as the dynamics in movies typically beat the pants off your typical music recording. HT's typically have much better dynamic linearity by design.

Rob

Rob-Can you explain "dynamic linearity" please?

 

[Elliot G.]

Myles, I totally agree with you. I think this is a major part of the problem. To think that the best audio has to offer is a room at the venetian with a day to set it up, with bad electricty and a noise floor that is off the charts is INSANE in the membrane.
A really amazing system takes a great room, excelent gear, and a lot of time to get it set up PERFECTLY. This usually means it is in someone's home. The reason is that it isnt getting ripped apart to do demo's, or in a hotel room, or to solve some political issues by vendors wanting space etc.
I am not sure how to let people experience what is possible and this is a giant problem.
Good point M

 

[MylesBAstor]

Might have been me as well. I questioned scale. A well set-up system certainly does give you a sense of space. That said I don't think it's a realistic one. Not saying it is not a pleasant illusion of it. If you relax you can get into that "space" and enjoy what's in front of you. The best rendering of space and scale I have ever heard is from multichannel recordings obviously played on an HT type set-up.

Hello Frank

IMHO a good HT set-up will be able to easily go loud as the dynamics in movies beat the pants off your average music recording. HT's also have much better dynamic linearity by design. They are designed to go "loud" and be able to do so from 20Hz and up. They can hit that magic 105db with room to spare across their entire bandwidth which few 2 channel systems can do. It's not just about quality, 2 channel has limitations and it's foolish not to recognize them.

Using the back reflections in your room is giving your brain the wrong input. Large space means longer time for the reflections as well as a different frequency mix due to absorption in the air and other factors.

Rob

Sorry Rob, can't agree about dynamics on movies You and I know that movies soundtracks are compressed so as to "sound louder." There's no real dynamics to speak of. The producer and director purposely makes those "exciting scenes" louder. It's actually more annoying that real.

 

[andromedaaudio]

For me the big draw in high end was and is and how i got to love it , is that a good high end system can give you a thrill.
the source can be anything of good quality , but a neutral well made loudspeaker driven by powerfull solid state such as Marklevinson or krell (dont shoot me) , and which can play hard without strain if you want it , is what makes this an interesting hobby/business for me , the speaker was an avalon ascendant and the room was treathed for the rest it was all ML in the line.
It might not be an absolute sound but i just love(d) it.
I do realize that one gets harder to please over the years