Fuse and Cable Directionality

[DonH50]

Thank you. I am more interested in listening to music than testing for reproduction errors. I spent good time finding what I like though without your extensive testing. I've spent more time on this forum than any in the past year, maybe 3 years (my 2 ASR audiogon forums).

It was not testing for errors, it was testing to see if a certain thing (component, wire, EQ setting, whatever) was reproducible and repeatable, did it make the difference we thought it did? Too often we found what we thought we heard, we did not, or we did but it had nothing to do with what we thought it did.

Audio marketing thrives on people's unwillingness to confirm their bias and has for decades eschewed science in favor of belief.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

I think he was making a joke, sarcastic. He did not anticipate anyone doing that (I certainly hope not). My Grover Huffman pre-amp and phono pre-amp are unfused. My Grover Huffman monoblock amps could be unfused with a circuit breaker replacement. It's all about the design and protection level required.

Yes I know that and I also do not have fuses in my system of any type.

 

[Analog Scott]

Thank you. I am more interested in listening to music than testing for reproduction errors.

It’s not an either/or proposition. Measurements and controlled listening tests are powerful tools that are useful in making purchasing decisions.

Listening for pleasure then follows

I spent good time finding what I like though without your extensive testing. I've spent more time on this forum than any in the past year, maybe 3 years (my 2 ASR audiogon forums).

Yours is simply a different approach to purchasing decisions. To each his own.

 

[Robh3606]

Your Prover is working very hard but your Thinker needs some more time to reassess the issue. This is starting to look a little bit=like 12 Angry Men, or 12 Angry Super Skeptics. “You can’t prove it!”

I answered your first question already. Hel

No you didn't because you can't and I am not the one making the claims!

Okay, let's say you are correct. Maybe the fuse is not directional. However, by flipping the fuse in a component if it elicits a better or worse sound (not scientifically tested, 100% perception). That's sufficient reason to flip the fuse to the preferred sound, whatever the miswiring or directionality of all the other components are in the equipment. I don't know why, I only know what I hear.

Thank you for an honest response. There is nothing wrong with saying I hear a difference and I don't know why. I like it this way better.

Rob

 

[SeagoatLeo]

It was not testing for errors, it was testing to see if a certain thing (component, wire, EQ setting, whatever) was reproducible and repeatable, did it make the difference we thought it did? Too often we found what we thought we heard, we did not, or we did but it had nothing to do with what we thought it did.

Audio marketing thrives on people's unwillingness to confirm their bias and has for decades eschewed science in favor of belief.

Audio marketing has caused me to spend money unnecessarily, luckily, mostly stuff that's relatively cheap for me. I also tried other SR products, since long gone or not purchased such as the Atmosphere XL, Bass spring thing, Atmosphere Euphoria SX digital cable, etc. I've turned down many products brought to my home from Schnerzinger, similar devices to "expand" my soundstage from a friend of the Shakti owner, etc. Certainly some of the things I've evicted or never purchased may work in other systems, such as most of my SR fuses worked better than standard fuses.

One of my best friends, Robert Pincus, scares some of his other friends because he knows when he hears a system and room what is not accurately being reproduced and acoustically wrong. It is very fortunate to have such a friend but who also makes us queasy with his analysis (for me, 34 years). With my current system, he marveled at the accuracy of the reproduction (he was a remastering engineer with Kevin Gray) but still found an acoustical problem (distortion/excess reverb from the upper left front wall corner). I replaced a framed acoustical foam panel adjacent to that wall and it eliminated the problem. The room is symmetrical but the right side did not have that problem. The left wall has my equipment racks mid-wall.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

Yes I know that and I also do not have fuses in my system of any type.

The best fuse is no fuse, sonically. That's why Grover installed circuit breakers instead of a fuse. Just as the fewer the component parts, the better, if the result is better sound (the Westminster Lab REI amps have fewer parts than Gryphon, Boulder, Aries Cerat amps yet are quite competitive).

 

[DonH50]

Is Analog Scott a pseudonym for Amir of ASR (probably not because he isn't as abrasive as Amir who follows my posts on several forums). Following Amir's chain of thoughtlessness would explain the nonsense "prove it to me with measurements or your wrong" and the science is there (really, all of it, he knows that as a fact). On Audiogon, my forum about ASR had about 1200 posts with Amir and I called some of them minions (although there were at least two ASR posters who were reasonable to converse with). Then on manufacturers frequency responses, tests results, another 500 to 600 posts with Amir again berating anyone who disagreed with his superior knowledge. It was about a 70/30 split against ASR/Amir and his acolytes.

I know one thing about Amir, he hasn't done mastering or recording (I've done over 150) in venues like Royce Hall, Disney Hall, Ford Ampitheater, et. al. as well as the compilation and transfer engineer for the Vienna Zeisl Centennial (11 CDs produced from the archives) who owner chose me over a rather famous L.A. remastering engineer who botched the prior remastering by compression, cutting bass, boosting mids (yuk) of the same material. I did a decent job of providing a neutral and balanced sound. Now I am the archivist for another composer as I have done about 40% of the recorded output myself in the past 30 years. So, who are you Analog Scott who knows so much more and can tell me off in so many ways to dilute and dismiss my experiences as total trash?

As to your query as to how I conducted my experiment, no one knew which direction I placed the fuse in, only me. I burned in the fuses for 25 hours first. My wife, Robert Pincus, Bob Donnelly, Grover Huffman all have superior hearing acuity and notice sonic anomalies in my custom listening room (Robert and Grover in every room), two of which are remastering engineers (also work with Kevin Grey and Bernie Grundman) and the latter a cable manufacturer with 50 years of electronic design and redesign. Robert knows/knew 100s of musicians, producers and recording engineers-it's his life goal to interact with them. Besides these ears of mine, four other music lover/audiophile friends and an another couple who allowed me to ask them which way the sound was more pleasant for them. With some equipment and SR fuses, the differences were not subtle and everyone chose the better/same sounding choice A or B direction. I knew what I was doing. I've had fuse upgrades for over 10 years now. So what if it were sighted, the listeners didn't know and didn't care, they just offered their preference for a few pieces of equipment. I did not torture my listeners with more than one or two pieces of equipment. (so consistent for and EAR 890, 864, 912, Dynaco ST70, Topping D70s, COS Engineering D1 and D2, a pair of 125w custom tube monoblocks and other equipment I can't recall). This was done over 10 years at various times. It solidified what I already knew but some friends above just wanted to make sure (some have the same equipment and use the same Acme fuses). I really don't care if you agree that this was a "scientific test" or not up to your vaulted standards. It's credible enough for my listeners and me. With the SR fuses, I would recheck a few times up to 150-200 hours.

With inferior mid-fi equipment I used to be fooled/less aware that a change which produced a smoother, less resolving sound that was preferable to a higher resolution but grainier or more distorted sound (digital in particular). Today, with high end equipment, my previously lousy sounding CDs can be tolerable and anything above average is greatly enjoyable. My analog set-up has been excellent since my acquisition of a highly modified Brooks Berdan SME IV arm on a VPI 19-4 table about 1982 and only improved since then. Yes, it's easy to be fooled unless one is naturally drawn to superior sonic perception (not me) or trained over time with ample experience (that's me). There is a well known WBF contributor/high end equipment distributor who considers me acutely aware of acoustic sonic properties and relies on my choices for classical and jazz recordings for his many audio shows. He shows $250,000+ systems using my choices, that's how much he trusts my hearing ability. As to my hearing acuity, last year I tested the limit to 16 Khz of the test with very sensitive hearing to low level sounds. My wife depends on my nighttime hearing her Dexcom blood sugar meter low alarms because she sleeps though them.

No, Scott is of no relation to Amir, and denigrating an alternative point of view is just as arrogant in my book. Nobody knew, or least I did not and I doubt Scott did, your credentials, but that was not the point at all. Questioning is not always an attack, and I tend to use "argument" in the old-fangled way of "a series of statements to prove a point" instead of the Internet world of flame wars and personal attacks.

Questioning what we hear and why, conducting experiments and such, is the scientific method. Sighted tests, knowing what you (or anyone) did, invalidates the result by introducing cognitive bias. That was the whole reason for blind testing, not in audio, but in many fields. It is not hearing acuity in question, but what the mind does with what it has heard. Your argument seems to be that science is wrong, and that anyone who cannot hear the difference in changing the direction of a fuse has bad hearing or bad equipment. IOW, your system and hearing is better than that of any of your detractors, and whatever physical science may be at play is irrelevant.

It is not my "vaulted standards" and I completely understand you do not care what I think. Thus there's no point in listing my experience and equipment over a lifetime of audio enjoyment, whether or not it rivals yours. Cancel culture has been at work in audio for a long time, but, human nature and all that jazz.

Back on topic, I have always been the curious type to question things, and gain desire a deeper understanding of "how" and "why". So to me experiments are worthwhile and often fun exercises in learning. Having a friend flip a fuse ten times without me seeing him, repeating the same selection while listening, and tallying the result would yield useful knowledge pro or con regarding something that, from an engineering point of view, is an extraordinary claim.

Off topic: My brother's wife has similar sugar issues, and since he travels a lot (airline pilot), they got some sort of device that links through the phone system so he automatically gets an alert, and if he does not respond the company will try a couple of other ways to reach he or his wife, and if those fail send the paramedics. They went to that extreme largely because her levels dropped very low one time he was out and he almost lost her.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

No, Scott is of no relation to Amir, and denigrating an alternative point of view is just as arrogant in my book. Nobody knew, or least I did not and I doubt Scott did, your credentials, but that was not the point at all. Questioning is not always an attack, and I tend to use "argument" in the old-fangled way of "a series of statements to prove a point" instead of the Internet world of flame wars and personal attacks.

Questioning what we hear and why, conducting experiments and such, is the scientific method. Sighted tests, knowing what you (or anyone) did, invalidates the result by introducing cognitive bias. That was the whole reason for blind testing, not in audio, but in many fields. It is not hearing acuity in question, but what the mind does with what it has heard. Your argument seems to be that science is wrong, and that anyone who cannot hear the difference in changing the direction of a fuse has bad hearing or bad equipment. IOW, your system and hearing is better than that of any of your detractors, and whatever physical science may be at play is irrelevant.

It is not my "vaulted standards" and I completely understand you do not care what I think. Thus there's no point in listing my experience and equipment over a lifetime of audio enjoyment, whether or not it rivals yours. Cancel culture has been at work in audio for a long time, but, human nature and all that jazz.

Back on topic, I have always been the curious type to question things, and gain desire a deeper understanding of "how" and "why". So to me experiments are worthwhile and often fun exercises in learning. Having a friend flip a fuse ten times without me seeing him, repeating the same selection while listening, and tallying the result would yield useful knowledge pro or con regarding something that, from an engineering point of view, is an extraordinary claim.

Off topic: My brother's wife has similar sugar issues, and since he travels a lot (airline pilot), they got some sort of device that links through the phone system so he automatically gets an alert, and if he does not respond the company will try a couple of other ways to reach he or his wife, and if those fail send the paramedics. They went to that extreme largely because her levels dropped very low one time he was out and he almost lost her.

Look, you don't understand that I was supporting your extreme scientific testing of results. My "testing" for my system was beneficial because the results were so conclusive of fuse direction of the test. I wasn't testing the entire system, just those equipment pieces that I chose at the time. It's not right or wrong, it's what everyone who heard the difference preferred. 8 or 9 people, several with great sonic/acoustic attributes came up with the same results. Sighted testing or in the dark, it didn't matter as no one knew (and I didn't say) what direction the fuses were going. Luckily, my friends are mostly non-tweakers (especially my wife). There was no expectation bias because no one cared other than what they preferred to hear. It's good enough for me and not for you. That's fine. I don't dictate to others what they should like except when I remaster recordings, I imprint my sonic preferences.

I'll reiterate what GeofKatt stated: I’m pretty sure that’s the very definition of Uber Skeptic or as you say, “well placed Skepticism.” Obviously all skeptics believe their skepticism is well placed. “Informed choices” presumes all audiophiles are privy to the same information and that they would all act the same if they were privy to all the information. “I focus on things that do make a real difference.” A transparent attempt to garner support for your claims. You might as well say, “I’ve been in this hobby for 40 years so you can believe me when I say directionality isn’t real.”

Even if all audiophiles are privy to the same information, they would not act the same way. We all have different aural attributes and preferences for sound and music. What I dislike are products that both expensive and either sound bad or test poorly or both. Even worse are those that offer no testing/proof and sound bad at high prices. That's where I put most high end cabling, no scientific proof they are superior but lots of pseudo-scientific proof/jargon that they are new and better cable solutions.

Jumping to conclusions about a piece of equipment is rampant as well. I've heard over 1000 audio systems, mostly at audio shows. So what? Generally not sounding good. A prime example is Von Schweikert VR55s heard at the 2023 LA The Show. They sounded atrocious. My friends heard those Von Schweikerts and declared their higher end speakers to be terrible waste of money. I told them in no uncertain terms that they were wrong. I blamed the ancillary equipment and terrible cabling. They were adamant I was wrong. My other best friend owns VS VR35 export, a simpler and relatively inexpensive speaker. We all agree that his system sounds great.

I've heard five other VS speakers including the two first Ultras with my LPs and CDs and virtually lusted to own a VS high end speaker (the VR35 export was not appropriate for my room and my then current speaker was nearly equivalent with better bass). For 5 years I sought a pair that I could afford. Finally, I purchased the VS VR9 SE Mk2 2018 model with warranty, upgraded sub amps, new upgraded internal wiring and all new ribbon supertweeters. My wife has heard the Ultra 11 at a show and it was the only time she ever got emotional listening to an audio system. She really doesn't care about equipment. That system was $1 to $1.5 million. I have been able to replicate the emotional involvement with my "new" speaker and ancillary equipment. 4 of the 5 audio friends who formed an opinion hating the high priced VS speakers heard my system in the past 3 months and declared (finally) that my system "rocks," one of the best systems they've heard.

I've had season tickets to the opera most of 59 seasons (about 400 operas since I was 9). My wife will not watch opera on video or on recordings. I bet if I hook up a big screen in my listening room with my current audio system, she may enjoy video opera, finally.

 

[DonH50]

Look, you don't understand that I was supporting your extreme scientific testing of results. My "testing" for my system was beneficial because the results were so conclusive of fuse direction of the test. I wasn't testing the entire system, just those equipment pieces that I chose at the time. It's not right or wrong, it's what everyone who heard the difference preferred. 8 or 9 people, several with great sonic/acoustic attributes came up with the same results. Sighted testing or in the dark, it didn't matter as no one knew (and I didn't say) what direction the fuses were going. Luckily, my friends are mostly non-tweakers (especially my wife). There was no expectation bias because no one cared other than what they preferred to hear. It's good enough for me and not for you. That's fine. I don't dictate to others what they should like except when I remaster recordings, I imprint my sonic preferences.

I would not consider it "extreme", but fairly basic, and as I said most of that was done about 40 years ago. I rarely measure except when setting up a new system or component (last was when I added some speakers, couple or three years ago). There's always the jump to conclusions in these debates that measures never listen and listeners never measure when (IME/IMO) the vast majority of us spend the vast majority of time just listening and enjoying. Even when I was going through all the various listener training and testing exercises it was a tiny, tiny fraction of the time I spent just listening for enjoyment. The testing amounted to a weekend or two a few times a year, with additional runs when we got something new in the store and wanted to see (hear) how it performed. After I got more involved in setting up and running the tests it took more time, but still a week or two every quarter was about it. In between I was attending college, working to pay for college and such, attending and performing at various musical events, and doing the odd summer gigs (TV/stereo repair, sound/recording technician, rodeo, maintenance crew on a ranch, etc.)

I understand your point of view but yes, disagree, as groups can influence their members. One of the reasons tests were so few and far apart even back then (mostly 1980's) was the difficulty of setting up and running a proper test. I learned the most about test methodology using listeners (people) from my psychology courses and professors. Engineering did a lot more testing, but it was usually easier to control the variables, and measurement was by instruments. Which I learned could have their own "bias" (noise and distortion floor, bandwidth weighting, etc.) often much harder to discern than simple auditory or visual bias of listeners.

This whole thread is one of debate, what people hear vs. what people understand from an engineering/science point of view, and I find it very hard to question things without it being interpreted as an attack. It is a fine line, and what would be defused (ahem) with a smile over a drink, just gets magnified out of control through the keyboard. At least IME/IMO. Personally I think the Internet for all its ability to "spread the word" sucks as a medium of communication.

I spent my life as an engineer, recently retired, and as a musician, now playing far less than when I was in various bands or principal in the local orchestra. Listening to music at home was and is one of my greatest pleasures, and I tend to ignore the gear. Musicians tend to focus on the music itself, less on the gear playing it, and I had to learn when I was younger to turn off the analytical part after the rehearsals and focus on the music when performing (or listening). I do still hate listening to a recording in which I am a performer; I tend to focus on every missed note, intonation bauble, or timing glitch instead of the overall picture.

Please realize my curiosity and questioning is not personal and does in no way reflect negatively on your experience and beliefs, despite the difficulty I may have in wording things non-confrontationally. As an engineer, even in the USA, English should be considered a second language for me... - Don

Edit: Just saw your expanded post. I've already used more words than I should. Preference is always present and not under question, by me or anyone (objective or subjective) that I know. That said, and despite my wife listening to it, I have just never acquired a taste for opera save a few brief well-known excerpts, and despite having been in the pit on various occasions. Another area we'll just have to disagree on, though on this my wife is on your side!

 

[Alrainbow]

what a great thread this has become truly eye opening and thought provoking
I have a question for everyone
how long do we need to hear something that has changed before it changes to what it is now permanent in an audio memory ?
an example is we change a cable and there is the immediate impact, then over a short time period say 30 mins or so maybe a bit longer depending on the person. We then make a decision is this still better or what has happened?,
this is not a trick question please Ask for clarification if I am not making sense

 

[Geoffkait]

No you didn't because you can't and I am not the one making the claims!

I’m pretty sure I did. Besides it’s up to the prosecution (you) to prove his case, not me. I did not invent reality. Don’t shoot me, I’m just the messenger.

 

[Analog Scott]

I'll reiterate what GeofKatt stated: I’m pretty sure that’s the very definition of Uber Skeptic or as you say, “well placed Skepticism.”

"Skepticism is the act of suspending judgment (the opposite of jumping to conclusions) when evaluating an explanation or claims. It allows scientists to consider all possibilities and systematically question all information in the course of an investigation.

Why is maintaining a skeptical outlook so important? Skepticism helps scientists to remain objective when performing scientific inquiry and research. It forces them to examine claims (their own and those of others) to be certain that there is sufficient evidence to back them up. Skeptics do not doubt every claim, only those backed by insufficient evidence or by data that have been improperly collected, are not relevant or cannot support the rationale being made."

Obviously all skeptics believe their skepticism is well placed. “Informed choices” presumes all audiophiles are privy to the same information and that they would all act the same if they were privy to all the information.

No. No such presumption exists. First, informed decisions are a matter of degree. The more acquired objective information that relates to the choice the more informed that choice is. The information aides the choice. There is no presumption about how any individual will act on that information.

When you make buying choices in audio would you rather have more or less relevant factual information? I confess, I have a hard time relating to wanting to be less well informed.

 

[Analog Scott]

what a great thread this has become truly eye opening and thought provoking
I have a question for everyone
how long do we need to hear something that has changed before it changes to what it is now permanent in an audio memory ?

That is an interesting and significant question with a complicated answer. Auditory memory is not what it seems to be.
Here is a fantastic video of a lecture given by one of the top research scientists in the field of audio. The entire video is worth watching but you can jump to 12:20 if you like. Your actual question is directly addressed at the 13:50 mark. here is the link

an example is we change a cable and there is the immediate impact, then over a short time period say 30 mins or so maybe a bit longer depending on the person. We then make a decision is this still better or what has happened?,
this is not a trick question please Ask for clarification if I am not making sense

You are making sense. The fact is we start losing aural memory within less than a second and lose a substantial amount within a few seconds. If you take the time to physically change a cable you have already lost most of the aural memory. This is why time synchronized quick switching is critical to making comparisons.

It's also very very very important to understand that from the very get go the brain can not process the entirety of what the ears hear. And as such we have to steer our focus. Just steering our focus quite literally changes what we hear. It's a phenomenon known as the "cocktail party effect" It's one that most of us have had direct experience with. You are at a large cocktail party, there are dozens of conversations going on. You hear the one you focus on while the other conversations are filtered out. Two people at the same party hearing the same actual sound can hear two entirely different things based on their steered focus.

So all aural memories are affected by our initial steered focus. If you watch the video I linked you will see that it gets much worse. And it should become quite clear why you can not reliably compare real time sound to an aural memory of sound.

There is no getting around it. It's a result of millions of years of evolution. Our ear/brain mechanism is hard wired that way. And it's a good thing too! Without that filtering sound would be a perceptual cacophony of ever changing barely recognizable noise. Just take a look at an unsmoothed in room frequency response measurement. It's scary.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

I would not consider it "extreme", but fairly basic, and as I said most of that was done about 40 years ago. I rarely measure except when setting up a new system or component (last was when I added some speakers, couple or three years ago). There's always the jump to conclusions in these debates that measures never listen and listeners never measure when (IME/IMO) the vast majority of us spend the vast majority of time just listening and enjoying. Even when I was going through all the various listener training and testing exercises it was a tiny, tiny fraction of the time I spent just listening for enjoyment. The testing amounted to a weekend or two a few times a year, with additional runs when we got something new in the store and wanted to see (hear) how it performed. After I got more involved in setting up and running the tests it took more time, but still a week or two every quarter was about it. In between I was attending college, working to pay for college and such, attending and performing at various musical events, and doing the odd summer gigs (TV/stereo repair, sound/recording technician, rodeo, maintenance crew on a ranch, etc.)

I understand your point of view but yes, disagree, as groups can influence their members. One of the reasons tests were so few and far apart even back then (mostly 1980's) was the difficulty of setting up and running a proper test. I learned the most about test methodology using listeners (people) from my psychology courses and professors. Engineering did a lot more testing, but it was usually easier to control the variables, and measurement was by instruments. Which I learned could have their own "bias" (noise and distortion floor, bandwidth weighting, etc.) often much harder to discern than simple auditory or visual bias of listeners.

This whole thread is one of debate, what people hear vs. what people understand from an engineering/science point of view, and I find it very hard to question things without it being interpreted as an attack. It is a fine line, and what would be defused (ahem) with a smile over a drink, just gets magnified out of control through the keyboard. At least IME/IMO. Personally I think the Internet for all its ability to "spread the word" sucks as a medium of communication.

I spent my life as an engineer, recently retired, and as a musician, now playing far less than when I was in various bands or principal in the local orchestra. Listening to music at home was and is one of my greatest pleasures, and I tend to ignore the gear. Musicians tend to focus on the music itself, less on the gear playing it, and I had to learn when I was younger to turn off the analytical part after the rehearsals and focus on the music when performing (or listening). I do still hate listening to a recording in which I am a performer; I tend to focus on every missed note, intonation bauble, or timing glitch instead of the overall picture.

Please realize my curiosity and questioning is not personal and does in no way reflect negatively on your experience and beliefs, despite the difficulty I may have in wording things non-confrontationally. As an engineer, even in the USA, English should be considered a second language for me... - Don

Edit: Just saw your expanded post. I've already used more words than I should. Preference is always present and not under question, by me or anyone (objective or subjective) that I know. That said, and despite my wife listening to it, I have just never acquired a taste for opera save a few brief well-known excerpts, and despite having been in the pit on various occasions. Another area we'll just have to disagree on, though on this my wife is on your side!

People have accused me of being an engineer (I was a commercial real estate appraiser for 28 years specialized fraud detection/expert witness, an attorney at 22, superintendent/designer/materials purchaser for a pair of apt. buildings and a tract of single family homes-I am extremely detail oriented but not a perfectionist). I really appreciate my electrical engineer friends. I have many more musician friends.

This is an aside-I recorded Viklarbo chamber group last night (founded by Maria Newman-Alfred Newman's daughter/composer and violin/violist and Wendy Prober Cohen). Shockingly, there was an 79 year old woman in attendance who sought my help to record her 80th birthday. The shock was she sang at the Met Opera in the 1974 season. I recalled my recording of I Vespri Siciliani with Beverly Sills having laryngitis and could only sing the high notes while Shirley Verrett, the mezzo in the opera, was capable then to sing Sills role. You should have seen the look on her face when I told her this story. Instant friendship through a shared experience. Just prior to Halloween, I overheard a remark in a Smart & Final by a similar age nattily dressed gentleman about music. I asked a question and it turns out he was a retired orchestral oboist with dozens of Youtube performances. We became friends and he resides only 1.5 miles away. Who knew? These are were new musician friends who I don't even perform with.

I only take personal offense when my credibility of what I hear is derided as inauthentic. I didn't put down Scott for his personal taste of which I don't know, but the way he addresses my beliefs as wrong (most of his posts) and he knows better. I got ticked off. Posters have been very nice to me on WBF over 9 years. This is my favorite site. After reading so many forums, I felt my equipment was inferior. I did not realize how important the CD transport was compared to a DAC. Boy, do I know now.

I spend 2 hours every night listening to music and sometimes 5 hours on a Saturday or Sunday.

Prior to the Dexcom CGM in 2011, we would see paramedics once or twice annually as my wife has had Type 1 for 63 years, takes only 4 Lantus units at night and morning, works out 4-5 days weekly and takes 1 or 2 units Apidra pre-meal when not working out. She tends to have lows rather than any dangerous highs. The Dexcom has improved my quality of life.

 

[audiom3]

That is an interesting and significant question with a complicated answer. Auditory memory is not what it seems to be.
Here is a fantastic video of a lecture given by one of the top research scientists in the field of audio. The entire video is worth watching but you can jump to 12:20 if you like. Your actual question is directly addressed at the 13:50 mark. here is the link

I'm not a Dr or even a scientist, but I believe auditory memory is the worst of all of our senses. It is why I would never discount someone claiming to hear something different in wire directionality vs me who can't/didn't.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

what a great thread this has become truly eye opening and thought provoking
I have a question for everyone
how long do we need to hear something that has changed before it changes to what it is now permanent in an audio memory ?
an example is we change a cable and there is the immediate impact, then over a short time period say 30 mins or so maybe a bit longer depending on the person. We then make a decision is this still better or what has happened?,
this is not a trick question please Ask for clarification if I am not making sense

As a 22+ year beta tester for a boutique cable manufacturer, I burn the cable in for 24 hours prior to testing. The CD transport indicates a 400 hour burn in but great results immediately. Yes, that was true. The Lampizator DAC per my dealer told me flat out it requires 72 hours minimum playing time prior to listening, 100+ hours better. So, he is going to deliver it after he breaks it in at home. As to audio memory, depends on how different/significant the change is for memory to change or be permanently retained. Difficult question.

 

[Republicoftexas69]

Oh boy.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

"Skepticism is the act of suspending judgment (the opposite of jumping to conclusions) when evaluating an explanation or claims. It allows scientists to consider all possibilities and systematically question all information in the course of an investigation.

Why is maintaining a skeptical outlook so important? Skepticism helps scientists to remain objective when performing scientific inquiry and research. It forces them to examine claims (their own and those of others) to be certain that there is sufficient evidence to back them up. Skeptics do not doubt every claim, only those backed by insufficient evidence or by data that have been improperly collected, are not relevant or cannot support the rationale being made."

No. No such presumption exists. First, informed decisions are a matter of degree. The more acquired objective information that relates to the choice the more informed that choice is. The information aides the choice. There is no presumption about how any individual will act on that information.

When you make buying choices in audio would you rather have more or less relevant factual information? I confess, I have a hard time relating to wanting to be less well informed.

Well you know what, I purchased the Lampizator Poseidon without really understanding why it sounds great. I couldn't find a schematic, don't know what DAC chip(s) are used (my friends seem very concerned with the chip-I take it as a totality of design), if it's R2R or Delta-Sigma, or other. I trust the dealer who sold it to me as he knows what type of sound I prefer, found my speaker, recommended the CD transport (ample information on it's design parameters) and let me hear his amp which I will be purchasing (my first 100% solid state amp in 50 years) which replaces my 25 year old fragile pair of big tube amps (the output tubes tend to have runaway voltages and tank the voltage regulation circuitry). So, yes, it's nice to know as much as possible but I can still make choices based on people I trust and my own hearing.

 

[Analog Scott]

I'm not a Dr or even a scientist, but I believe auditory memory is the worst of all of our senses. It is why I would never discount someone claiming to hear something different in wire directionality vs me who can't/didn't.

human memory is profoundly faulty. The problem is that it doesn't seem like it is nearly as faulty as it actually is. If one wants to test this for giggles. Take a good hard look at one of your interior walls. Memorize that color. A color you should be EXTREMELY familiar with to begin with. Go to Home Depot and based on memory alone find the matching color from the samples they have there. Bring that sample home and see how good your memory actually is.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

I'm not a Dr or even a scientist, but I believe auditory memory is the worst of all of our senses. It is why I would never discount someone claiming to hear something different in wire directionality vs me who can't/didn't.

That's why I prefer to audition equipment at home for a substantial duration when I am uncertain (which is often). Also, preferences often change when something else in the system changes (the reason for many of my changes in equipment-but I've kept the same analog system for 18 years now, adding or subtracting the Zesto Allesso SUT depending on my phono preamp).