Fuse and Cable Directionality

[Analog Scott]

But we already showed that objective observations, I.e., measurements, aren’t convincing. Blame it on the bossa nova. Besides, as someone just pointed out, you can’t prove a negative.

Observations? you said "directionality is completely subjective" It's not.

 

[DonH50]

From the Audioquest website (link just above):
A conductor’s asymmetrical surface structure causes a directional difference in impedance at noise frequencies and very high interference frequencies. Due to skin-effect, such high-frequency energy travels almost exclusively on the surface of a conductor, giving significance to the directional difference in impedance at these frequencies.

For a 20ga bit of wire, skin effect might go as low as 80KHz, depending a great deal on the kind of signal (usually RF) and the strength of the signal. However if there is directionality at those frequencies, no-one has ever measured it and of course no-one can hear that high either.

Skin effect is real enough, though a problem at frequencies well (decades) above audio, but I do not recall in decades of dealing with it on my day job that skin effect itself induces directionality. But it has already been said that science, math, physics, theory and all that jazz is irrelevant, the effect can only be heard, not measured or theorized. Pure marketing.

Edit: There is an article about skin effect in the link referenced in my signature. Unfortunately, I think I did the plots and ran some numbers for examples, but did not post the actual equation for skin effect. Neither WBF nor ASR forums have (had) symbol font or an equation editor, and at the time I did not think to create an image of it to paste.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

I'm sorry but I get confused by the vernacular you use. For instance, main system duplex vs adjacent pair 6 feet away? My mind goes to adjacent 6 feet away being general purpose duplex. Not audio.

Earlier you were saying things like 4 pair of duplex, and each circuit breakers pairs. Pair to me mean double duplex. Like 8 duplex on the wall with 4 circuit breakers. Double duplex are their own can of worms and can cause issues.

This to me is the only way in audio to make a double duplex. Of course your wrapping the connection with teflon tape or liquid tape, then vinyl tape. One wire remains unbroken and goes to one duplex. The other is tagged onto the main with a burndy C crimp and goes to the other duplex.

Audio subpanel only with 10 gauge solid core copper wiring:
8 duplex on the wall with 4 circuit breakers, one circuit breaker dedicated to each pair of duplexes (that's four plugs in two separate duplexes, four locations=total 16 plugs in 8 duplexes). My breaker box contains one single buss with four breakers in line.
I do not comprehend double duplex except as a quad unit. My duplexes are NOT tied together but are independently wired back to the circuit breaker. That's all I know.

 

[Geoffkait]

Nope. It's 100% objective. Particularly with wires and fuses.

Define objective. Define subjective.

 

[Geoffkait]

these things are not proven. Proofs are strictly for math. In physics we look at the existing evidence and go with what it tells us. I can just as easily challenge anyone to prove there are no pink 5 legged dwarf elephants on the moons of Jupiter.

I challenge anyone to offer objective verifiable evidence that fuses make any difference in the actual sound of a component or that cable direction makes an audible difference. Let's look at the non anecdotal evidence and evaluate it. If they make an actual audible difference in the audio signal that difference will show up in objective measurements in that signal and will be reliably detected in well designed bias controlled listening tests.

Let's see that evidence.

You wrote, “In physics we look at the existing evidence and go with what it tells us.” Nice of you to hold physicists in such a high regard. I’m not sure the other physicists would agree with you, however.

these things are not proven. Proofs are strictly for math. In physics we look at the existing evidence and go with what it tells us. I can just as easily challenge anyone to prove there are no pink 5 legged dwarf elephants on the moons of Jupiter.

Proof in physics is often by experiment. Math usually follows later when the math dudes get around to it. The most important thing is the CONCEPT. One recent example of proof by experiment in physics was the 2022 Nobel prize in physics for proving by experiment that Einstein was wrong when he wrote that action-at-a-distance cannot be real. (He never got on board the quantum physics train.) He was right about gravity waves, however, which were proven (observed) by the experiment LIGO not too long ago.

Nobel prize 2022 description: “Alain Aspect, John Clauser and Anton Zeilinger have each conducted groundbreaking experiments using entangled quantum states, where two particles behave like a single unit even when they are separated. Their results have cleared the way for new technology based upon quantum information.

The ineffable effects of quantum mechanics are starting to find applications. There is now a large field of research that includes quantum computers, quantum networks and secure quantum encrypted communication.

One key factor in this development is how quantum mechanics allows two or more particles to exist in what is called an entangled state. What happens to one of the particles in an entangled pair determines what happens to the other particle, even if they are far apart.”

I challenge anyone to offer objective verifiable evidence that fuses make any difference in the actual sound of a component or that cable direction makes an audible difference. Let's look at the non anecdotal evidence and evaluate it. If they make an actual audible difference in the audio signal that difference will show up in objective measurements in that signal and will be reliably detected in well designed bias controlled listening tests.

Let's see that evidence.

Skeptics seem to enjoy throwing logical fallacies against the wall and seeing what sticks. There is a “thinker” and a “prover” in everyone. The “thinker” draws his conclusion from whatever fits the bill and his “prover” goes to work scouring the internet for explanations that prove his “thinker” is correct, which is the most important thing. The “prover” rejects any evidence that contradicts his foregone conclusion, of course. The “prover” is the bad guy. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Geoffkait]

From the Audioquest website (link just above):


For a 20ga bit of wire, skin effect might go as low as 80KHz, depending a great deal on the kind of signal (usually RF) and the strength of the signal. However if there is directionality at those frequencies, no-one has ever measured it and of course no-one can hear that high either.

By inspection, skin effect is a symmetrical effect/phenomenon, i.e., it’s the same in both directions, whereas wire “directionality” is a non-symmetrical effect/phenomenon. It’s the physical and electrical condition produced by non symmetrical deformation of the metal crystal lattice structure. Be that as it may, AudioQuest conductor surfaces are highly polished in house, thus electrons, if any, traveling near the surface will have a smoother ride.

The electric and magnetic fields in the signal lie entirely outside the conductor. And these E and B fields interact with the voice coil and magnet system of the speaker to force the diaphragm in and out.

 

[Robh3606]

Any relation? The Teleportation Tweak!!

Audio Acccessories - Teleportation Tweak, Long Distance Telephone

Teleportation tweak, long distance tweak, Audio Tweak, telephone

www.machinadynamica.com

Rob

 

[Geoffkait]

Analog Scott said:
these things are not proven. Proofs are strictly for math. In physics we look at the existing evidence and go with what it tells us. I can just as easily challenge anyone to prove there are no pink 5 legged dwarf elephants on the moons of Jupiter.

One assumes that’s the royal “we.” Thanks for those lovely examples of logical fallacies.

 

[Geoffkait]

Any relation? The Teleportation Tweak!!

Audio Acccessories - Teleportation Tweak, Long Distance Telephone

Teleportation tweak, long distance tweak, Audio Tweak, telephone

www.machinadynamica.com

Rob

Speaking of spooky action-at-a-distance! The only high end product that doesn’t require shipping. The system doesn’t have to be on at the time The Teleportation Tweak is done. The customer doesn’t have to be at home when it’s done, either.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

What good would it possibly do to have a super duper conducting Graphene fuse wire when the entire rest of the system is copper, including the end caps? Besides, Graphene is defined as a two dimensional material, if you make it into a solid 3 dimensional material like a wire it’s no longer Graphene.

I'm just catching up with this forum. 3 dimensional graphene is called graphite and has poor electrical properties. I've gone through red/black/blue/orange/purple SR fuses. None are neutral sounding. Now they have pink and white. Well, they all color the sound which I do not attribute to the graphene coating (as the conductor-can't be). (It's ironic that SR names their fuses by color and they color the sound as well). They also blow at rated protection levels (on 7 different audio pieces from DACs to amps) and larger rated fuses are required to operate equipment. I stopped using them as have all my friends. We use Acme treated fuses at $22 which essentially are ceramic fuses (according to friends) with anti-vibration coatings. They are neutral but make our sound more dimensional and tonally dense. A few use other brands such as Hi-Fi Tuning (2 friends). This is on higher end audio gear, not a 1970s receiver (which I haven't tried). We've tried graphene coating/mixture on other products and they are all mixed with other substances, silver being a prominent one. Unfortunately, they all affected the sound in a less wholesome way and we discarded them after a thorough break-in.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

Of course, there is a direction of current flow in fuses. For example, Synergistic Research Purple Fuse does not use copper or silver wire. They use graphene as a fuse wire. Graphene also has naturally high electrical conductivity and even shows forms of self-organization. Even more exciting, however, is that if you twist two layers of graphene lying on top of each other by 1.1 degrees, graphene becomes a superconductor - the material now conducts electricity without loss and without resistance.
I have found that the fuse has the greatest effect in power amps, i.e. a high dynamic current consumption. Listen to bass-intensive music, e.g. Trentemøller with this fuse.

SR does not use graphene as a fuse wire. That's impossible-2 atoms thick. 3 layers-graphene-non conductive. Maybe it is in a matrix of materials, usually mixed with silver. It is used in a coating such as on their duplexes.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

these things are not proven. Proofs are strictly for math. In physics we look at the existing evidence and go with what it tells us. I can just as easily challenge anyone to prove there are no pink 5 legged dwarf elephants on the moons of Jupiter.

I challenge anyone to offer objective verifiable evidence that fuses make any difference in the actual sound of a component or that cable direction makes an audible difference. Let's look at the non anecdotal evidence and evaluate it. If they make an actual audible difference in the audio signal that difference will show up in objective measurements in that signal and will be reliably detected in well designed bias controlled listening tests.

Let's see that evidence.

Maybe the evidence is lacking due to the inability to find the evidence. Sound is a complex physics of electrons moving through a substrate (air for us) that is detectible after striking an object (our hearing apparatus-tympani). Of course, it is more complex than that, unlike light. There is probably a lack of scientific testing equipment to extract a measurable result of differences in some sonic behavior; in particular, the effect of directionality in fuses and cables. ASR is a site whereby if the current testing does not find a difference, it doesn't exist. Instead, an open scientific mind will sense that current testing is inadequate or doesn't exist (yet).

The difference in sound produced by either fuse construction and directionality are obvious to both laymen and audiophiles (I've tested this premise on casual music listeners such as friends and relatives, especially my very keen eared wife years ago). They don't know about directionality or fuses. Simple A/B tests, blind tests for them. Either they hear a difference or not. They ALWAYS hear the difference, whether they prefer one or the other is personal preference.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

these things are not proven. Proofs are strictly for math. In physics we look at the existing evidence and go with what it tells us. I can just as easily challenge anyone to prove there are no pink 5 legged dwarf elephants on the moons of Jupiter.

I challenge anyone to offer objective verifiable evidence that fuses make any difference in the actual sound of a component or that cable direction makes an audible difference. Let's look at the non anecdotal evidence and evaluate it. If they make an actual audible difference in the audio signal that difference will show up in objective measurements in that signal and will be reliably detected in well designed bias controlled listening tests.

Let's see that evidence.

Read my reply and my unscientific but verifiable test post. Your statement sounds like ASR-if the objective measurements are unavailable, then the difference does not exist and the subject is closed for evaluation at a future time when such testing can observe the difference if it exists. I like the prover versus thinker analogy. ASR-Prove it NOW! Yet scientific tests are constantly being discovered and upgraded, even in the highly theoretical quantum physics arena. Only 120,000 boutique fuses have been sold? I've purchased or tried dozens myself and I spend probably 98% of my time listening to music and not playing with equipment (I also work full-time).

A friend who is also an equipment and boutique cable manufacturer is an extreme tweak skeptic. However, after he heard my SR black fuses in his designed 125 w Class A/B monoblock tube amps which I also own, he heard a significant difference (he was very impressed) and redesigned the fuse holder compartment to accept a 5 amp circuit breaker instead. The amps sound virtually the same now. A decade later, I've removed nearly all the tweaks in my system other than Acme fuses and a pair of Shakti Hallographs. I don't consider high quality electrical service (breakers to duplexes to electrical wiring) to be a tweak. I hope all posters here agree that quality electrical service is paramount to better sound (whether or not a test exists for every electrical service parameter). My equipment does not need tweaks and my listening room is nearly SOTA (it cost enough and a well known speaker manufacturer thought it was so good, nearly any well designed speaker would sound good in my room).

 

[Geoffkait]

I'm just catching up with this forum. 3 dimensional graphene is called graphite and has poor electrical properties. I've gone through red/black/blue/orange/purple SR fuses. None are neutral sounding. Now they have pink and white. Well, they all color the sound which I do not attribute to the graphene coating (as the conductor-can't be). (It's ironic that SR names their fuses by color and they color the sound as well). They also blow at rated protection levels (on 7 different audio pieces from DACs to amps) and larger rated fuses are required to operate equipment. I stopped using them as have all my friends. We use Acme treated fuses at $22 which essentially are ceramic fuses (according to friends) with anti-vibration coatings. They are neutral but make our sound more dimensional and tonally dense. A few use other brands such as Hi-Fi Tuning (2 friends). This is on higher end audio gear, not a 1970s receiver (which I haven't tried). We've tried graphene coating/mixture on other products and they are all mixed with other substances, silver being a prominent one. Unfortunately, they all affected the sound in a less wholesome way and we discarded them after a thorough break-in.

I never got on board the SR train but I did get on board the Acme train, not their fuses but the fuse fuse holders.I traded Crump my iso stand for some TG Audio cables and some Acme fuse holders. The fuse holders are Silver plated, sounded great. Acme was named after the company in Roadrunner cartoons that sold the Coyote a bunch of weird products, such as rocket powered roller skates.

Acme was one of the companies like mine that popped up in the John Curl Bob Crump rooms at CES way back when. I recall chatting with the Acme dude outside the hotel they exhibited in circa 2000.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

 

[SeagoatLeo]

I never got on board the SR train but I did get on board the Acme train, not their fuses but the fuse fuse holders.I traded Crump my iso stand for some TG Audio cables and some Acme fuse holders. The fuse holders are Silver plated, sounded great. Acme was named after the company in Roadrunner cartoons that sold the Coyote a bunch of weird products, such as rocket powered roller skates.

Acme was one of the companies like mine that popped up in the John Curl Bob Crump rooms at CES way back when. I recall chatting with the Acme dude outside the hotel they exhibited in circa 2000.

Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica

Sometimes it takes Revolution Audio/distributor 3 weeks for fuses to arrive. I suspect they are made in batches and run out of popular sizes often, then make a new batch. They really did name the company after the roadrunner? Not a coincidence? Acme is such a common product name for a century. Acme means summit, highest point, extremity or peak. Good name.

 

[Geoffkait]

Sometimes it takes Revolution Audio/distributor 3 weeks for fuses to arrive. I suspect they are made in batches and run out of popular sizes often, then make a new batch. They really did name the company after the roadrunner? Not a coincidence? Acme is such a common product name for a century. Acme means summit, highest point, extremity or peak. Good name.

I just remembered I got a bunch of Acme silver plated wall duplex outlets when I visited Bob in Houston. Highly recommended if they still make ‘em. Don’t ask me about TG Audio, Bob Crump’s cable company name, though.

 

[SeagoatLeo]

I just remembered I got a bunch of Acme silver plated wall duplex outlets when I visited Bob in Houston. Highly recommended if they still make ‘em. Don’t ask me about TG Audio, Bob Crump’s cable company name, though.

I won't. I think Crump died about 2 decades ago and don't know anything about him.

 

[Analog Scott]

Maybe the evidence is lacking due to the inability to find the evidence.

There is plenty of direct and indirect evidence. None of which supports the belief that fuses make an audible difference

Sound is a complex physics of electrons moving through a substrate (air for us) that is detectible after striking an object (our hearing apparatus-tympani). Of course, it is more complex than that, unlike light.

It’s actually pretty simple physics. And actual sound waves are easily measured well below any and all thresholds of human hearing

There is probably a lack of scientific testing equipment to extract a measurable result of differences in some sonic behavior; in particular, the effect of directionality in fuses and cables.

Based on what? What scientific testing have you looked at? What scientists in the field of psychoacoustics have you consulted to find out what testing has been done that would apply to this issue?

ASR is a site whereby if the current testing does not find a difference, it doesn't exist.

That’s an oversimplification of that forum. But forget that forum. Let’s talk about actual science. What have you looked at? What scientists in the field have you asked in regards to the applicable research?

Instead, an open scientific mind will sense that current testing is inadequate or doesn't exist (yet).

An open scientific mind doesn’t rely on what they sense. They investigate. They look at the existing applicable research and if they don’t know where to find it they ask real scientists in that field of study

The difference in sound produced by either fuse construction and directionality are obvious to both laymen and audiophiles (I've tested this premise on casual music listeners such as friends and relatives, especially my very keen eared wife years ago). They don't know about directionality or fuses. Simple A/B tests, blind tests for them. Either they hear a difference or not. They ALWAYS hear the difference, whether they prefer one or the other is personal preference.

You have done actual blind tests? If so what were the protocols and the actual results?

 

[highstream]

There is plenty of direct and indirect evidence. None of which supports the belief that fuses make an audible difference

It’s actually pretty simple physics. And actual sound waves are easily measured well below any and all thresholds of human hearing

Based on what? What scientific testing have you looked at? What scientists in the field of psychoacoustics have you consulted to find out what testing has been done that would apply to this issue?

That’s an oversimplification of that forum. But forget that forum. Let’s talk about actual science. What have you looked at? What scientists in the field have you asked in regards to the applicable research?

An open scientific mind doesn’t rely on what they sense. They investigate. They look at the existing applicable research and if they don’t know where to find it they ask real scientists in that field of study

You have done actual blind tests? If so what were the protocols and the actual results?

You're off topic. This thread is about cable and fuse directionality only. Reported.

 

[Analog Scott]

Read my reply and my unscientific but verifiable test post. Your statement sounds like ASR-if the objective measurements are unavailable, then the difference does not exist and the subject is closed for evaluation at a future time when such testing can observe the difference if it exists.

That is a gross misrepresentation of ASR.
It’s quite easy to objectively measure the effect a fuse has on the audio signal and it is quite readily available for anyone who wishes to make the measurements. In the case of fuses and cables one can easily do a comprehensive null test that will literally play the actual differences in the signal.

I like the prover versus thinker analogy. ASR-Prove it NOW! Yet scientific tests are constantly being discovered and upgraded, even in the highly theoretical quantum physics arena.

Indeed they are. And despite your mischaracterizations of ASR the scientific community remains open to newer and better evidence. What newer, better verifiable evidence do you have? Anecdotal evidence is not verifiable

Only 120,000 boutique fuses have been sold? I've purchased or tried dozens myself and I spend probably 98% of my time listening to music and not playing with equipment (I also work full-time).

A friend who is also an equipment and boutique cable manufacturer is an extreme tweak skeptic. However, after he heard my SR black fuses in his designed 125 w Class A/B monoblock tube amps which I also own, he heard a significant difference (he was very impressed) and redesigned the fuse holder compartment to accept a 5 amp circuit breaker instead. The amps sound virtually the same now. A decade later, I've removed nearly all the tweaks in my system other than Acme fuses and a pair of Shakti Hallographs. I don't consider high quality electrical service (breakers to duplexes to electrical wiring) to be a tweak. I hope all posters here agree that quality electrical service is paramount to better sound (whether or not a test exists for every electrical service parameter). My equipment does not need tweaks and my listening room is nearly SOTA (it cost enough and a well known speaker manufacturer thought it was so good, nearly any well designed speaker would sound good in my room).

That’s awesome. But it’s anecdotal. If you can repeat those results in proper well designed double blind tests and get a statistically significant positive result then you will have new evidence that will be worthy of examination. That is a universal standard. The standard is there for a very good reason. Anecdotal evidence is inherently unreliable. Humans are human