Yes, I'm using it as an adapter only for DACs that do not have a computer interface. In the early days of computer audio, I found that the Toslink out from the MicroAdvantage sounded better than the USB built into some DACs.
Frugal DACs...
- Thread starter Lee
- Start date
Yes, I'm using it as an adapter only for DACs that do not have a computer interface. In the early days of computer audio, I found that the Toslink out from the MicroAdvantage sounded better than the USB built into some DACs.
I started out with the Super Pro USB DAC 707 at US$110 + shipping with the following specs:
Cirrus Logic 24/192 CS4398 D>A converter chip
Cirrus Logic 24/192 CS8416 upsampling receiver chip
Cirrus Logic CM108 USB receiver running at maximum 16/48: please note that although this DAC will play higher bit rate files over USB without glitches, it is natively 16-bit
24/192 via optical (Toslink), RCA coaxial and I2S digital inputs.
24/96 or 24/192 auto detect
16/44.1 or 16/48 via USB digital input
Rhodium-plated RCA/phono outputs.
Dual LT1364C op-amp analog output stage.
Dimensions: 120 x 25 x 50mm
Weight: 400g
Comes with UK 12V transformer
(IEC to 2.1mm DC), USB cable,
coaxial cable and optical cable.
http://www.itemaudio.co.uk/superpro_dac.html
http://http://diykits.com.hk/dac_super_pro_dac707.htm
It can run from a 12vDC PS and I have a 12vDC SLA Battery which in my opinion improved its performance a notch higher.
Cirrus Logic 24/192 CS4398 D>A converter chip
Cirrus Logic 24/192 CS8416 upsampling receiver chip
Cirrus Logic CM108 USB receiver running at maximum 16/48: please note that although this DAC will play higher bit rate files over USB without glitches, it is natively 16-bit
24/192 via optical (Toslink), RCA coaxial and I2S digital inputs.
24/96 or 24/192 auto detect
16/44.1 or 16/48 via USB digital input
Rhodium-plated RCA/phono outputs.
Dual LT1364C op-amp analog output stage.
Dimensions: 120 x 25 x 50mm
Weight: 400g
Comes with UK 12V transformer
(IEC to 2.1mm DC), USB cable,
coaxial cable and optical cable.
http://www.itemaudio.co.uk/superpro_dac.html
http://http://diykits.com.hk/dac_super_pro_dac707.htm
It can run from a 12vDC PS and I have a 12vDC SLA Battery which in my opinion improved its performance a notch higher.
I had , at one point an Audio Note Dac 1.1 with upgrade co. mods, that I picked up for $600... I remember it being very very listenable, I think my TT stood still for 3 days straight.
I went ahead and bought a $100 DAC from ebay... the DAC "Lampizator" goes on about... it's called the 'Lampucera". I can honestly say, it is the best dac I've had in my system... it currently awaits mods in the form of Modwright's tube output stage and PS 9.0, scavenged from my Modwright Sony 999 spinner.
As far as non-diy DACs go, from what I've heard, the Grant Audio DAC 11, at $325 is very special, being compared to the Eastern Electric Sabre DAC.
I'm going to grab one for my headphone setup, it's just too darn cheap not to!
I went ahead and bought a $100 DAC from ebay... the DAC "Lampizator" goes on about... it's called the 'Lampucera". I can honestly say, it is the best dac I've had in my system... it currently awaits mods in the form of Modwright's tube output stage and PS 9.0, scavenged from my Modwright Sony 999 spinner.
As far as non-diy DACs go, from what I've heard, the Grant Audio DAC 11, at $325 is very special, being compared to the Eastern Electric Sabre DAC.
I'm going to grab one for my headphone setup, it's just too darn cheap not to!
Lite DAC-AH - price here in China about $120. Competent out of the box but loads of opportunity to hot-rod the output stage and power supplies for the DIY-inclined.
Hmmm... bargain DACs.
First, I've got to comment on the Grant and the Lampy..... I don't at all hold with "tube DACs". Since a DAC is basically a solid state device, the only possible reason for adding a tube would be to add tube distortion. (You may have twigged that I'm not a tube fan.) You haven't avoided anything solid state, or eliminated any hard that solid state parts might cause, all you've done is slathered tube distortion on top of it. While I'm personally not a fan of tubes, I do understand those who are. It seems to me, though, that the tubes belong in a preamp - or a headphone amp - and not in the DAC. It just seems like a silly place to put them.
Now, as for "bargain DACs", there are a lot of good deals out there and, quite honestly, plenty of cheap DACs that sound pretty good. Since this thread is about "Frugal DACs", we should start at the bottom.
Fiio makes a few DACs in the $40 range that, amazingly enough, fail to suck all that badly (check Amazon).
Someone else mentioned the little Turtle Beach one (at $25).
Any of those would be a HUGE improvement over the sound card in a laptop - even an expensive laptop.
Going up, there's the HRT Headstreamer for $135 (it's a USB powered headphone amp, and uses the better asynch protocol). You can also, of course, plug in an adapter cable and connect it to a real system (a pretty good alternative if you want a headphone amp AND a cheap DAC.) It sounds quite nice, but is USB only.
HRT makes other nice little "black box" DACs, but the Headstreamer is more universally useful.
I really wanted to love the DragonFly, but I can't. The build quality is lovely (it's solid metal with that rubbery feeling coating), and I love the kewl color changing logo for sample rate, but it is rather pricey at $250. As a buddy of mine commented "the sound won't offend anybody, and it sounds nice, but it just doesn't sound exciting". I would say the Headstreamer, at almost half the price, sounds a tiny bit better. The DragonFly is much smaller, which is nice, but having a USB dongle with a headphone cable hanging off its butt is definitely asking for that USB connector to get loose in a few weeks or months and, if you add the extra cable, then it isn't nearly as tiny.
The Emotiva XDA-1 sounded VERY nice - especially at the $150 clearance price, but it's gone (if you see one cheap on eBay, grab it, and don't forget to transfer the warranty). Some of us thought it actually sounded a bit better than the Benchmark. Emotiva has a new one, the XDA-2, on the way in a few weeks. It's a bit more expensive, but has a lot more features (including an ASRC and a really nice headphone amp), and comes with a 30 day return option. (Full disclosure here; I work for Emotiva.)
The Schiit Bifrost is very nice (it's what I currently listen to at home). It also includes the better asynch USB and all around sounds very nice. The Gungnir is probably nice as well, although I don't see the ability to lock onto non-standard clocks as terribly useful (most sources aren't nearly far off enough to need it.)
Up the chain, the Benchmarks are still very nice, but there are just too many cheaper alternatives out there now that top or equal it.
(Especially, the premiums they charge for an analog input and a remote volume control are a bit excessive.)
Folks like Audio-GD make a whole slew of DACs, and some of them I know sound nice, but they're a bit "all over the map" in terms of sound....
(I have one of their $200 DAC/headphone amps and it's quite nice).
Personally, I would avoid models that make you go inside and change jumpers to change sample rate or filter options -
you end up NOT trying the alternatives because it takes too long and is too much trouble. Go for one with SWITCHES.
There are a lot of other "no-name" Chinese DACs on eBay and elsewhere. Many sound quite good, but not all, so be very careful about buying one
based only on claims - without either listening to one or at least talking to someone who has.
(Remember, not everything with a Sabre, or whatever, actually sounds good.)
Finally, don't discount the benefits of a really good USB-to-S/PDIF converter.
I had an old V-Link, and it definitely made an improvement to my Emotiva XDA-1, and the Audiophilleo 2 was an obvious improvement on that...
I use the AP with my Bifrost and it makes a huge difference (but, then, it cost as much as the Bifrost) so there IS something to reducing jitter to really low numbers....
I would also warn that expensive DACs, say above the $1500 price point, get somewhat "subjective".
I heard a $30,000 one once.... it didn't sound any better than the $1000 one sitting next to it...
Don't assume... and listen carefully.
Oh, and, yes, if you get a DAC with an asynch USB input (like the Bifrost) or a converter (like the HiFace, or V-Link, or Audiophilleo),
then you should expect any differences you might hear between USB cables to be minimal (or nonexistent).
(From an engineering point of view, expectations should tend towards nonexistent.)
If you have a NON-asynch USB input, then who knows?
DO try for a double blind test before spending the money, though....
DACMan
First, I've got to comment on the Grant and the Lampy..... I don't at all hold with "tube DACs". Since a DAC is basically a solid state device, the only possible reason for adding a tube would be to add tube distortion. (You may have twigged that I'm not a tube fan.) You haven't avoided anything solid state, or eliminated any hard that solid state parts might cause, all you've done is slathered tube distortion on top of it. While I'm personally not a fan of tubes, I do understand those who are. It seems to me, though, that the tubes belong in a preamp - or a headphone amp - and not in the DAC. It just seems like a silly place to put them.
Now, as for "bargain DACs", there are a lot of good deals out there and, quite honestly, plenty of cheap DACs that sound pretty good. Since this thread is about "Frugal DACs", we should start at the bottom.
Fiio makes a few DACs in the $40 range that, amazingly enough, fail to suck all that badly (check Amazon).
Someone else mentioned the little Turtle Beach one (at $25).
Any of those would be a HUGE improvement over the sound card in a laptop - even an expensive laptop.
Going up, there's the HRT Headstreamer for $135 (it's a USB powered headphone amp, and uses the better asynch protocol). You can also, of course, plug in an adapter cable and connect it to a real system (a pretty good alternative if you want a headphone amp AND a cheap DAC.) It sounds quite nice, but is USB only.
HRT makes other nice little "black box" DACs, but the Headstreamer is more universally useful.
I really wanted to love the DragonFly, but I can't. The build quality is lovely (it's solid metal with that rubbery feeling coating), and I love the kewl color changing logo for sample rate, but it is rather pricey at $250. As a buddy of mine commented "the sound won't offend anybody, and it sounds nice, but it just doesn't sound exciting". I would say the Headstreamer, at almost half the price, sounds a tiny bit better. The DragonFly is much smaller, which is nice, but having a USB dongle with a headphone cable hanging off its butt is definitely asking for that USB connector to get loose in a few weeks or months and, if you add the extra cable, then it isn't nearly as tiny.
The Emotiva XDA-1 sounded VERY nice - especially at the $150 clearance price, but it's gone (if you see one cheap on eBay, grab it, and don't forget to transfer the warranty). Some of us thought it actually sounded a bit better than the Benchmark. Emotiva has a new one, the XDA-2, on the way in a few weeks. It's a bit more expensive, but has a lot more features (including an ASRC and a really nice headphone amp), and comes with a 30 day return option. (Full disclosure here; I work for Emotiva.)
The Schiit Bifrost is very nice (it's what I currently listen to at home). It also includes the better asynch USB and all around sounds very nice. The Gungnir is probably nice as well, although I don't see the ability to lock onto non-standard clocks as terribly useful (most sources aren't nearly far off enough to need it.)
Up the chain, the Benchmarks are still very nice, but there are just too many cheaper alternatives out there now that top or equal it.
(Especially, the premiums they charge for an analog input and a remote volume control are a bit excessive.)
Folks like Audio-GD make a whole slew of DACs, and some of them I know sound nice, but they're a bit "all over the map" in terms of sound....
(I have one of their $200 DAC/headphone amps and it's quite nice).
Personally, I would avoid models that make you go inside and change jumpers to change sample rate or filter options -
you end up NOT trying the alternatives because it takes too long and is too much trouble. Go for one with SWITCHES.
There are a lot of other "no-name" Chinese DACs on eBay and elsewhere. Many sound quite good, but not all, so be very careful about buying one
based only on claims - without either listening to one or at least talking to someone who has.
(Remember, not everything with a Sabre, or whatever, actually sounds good.)
Finally, don't discount the benefits of a really good USB-to-S/PDIF converter.
I had an old V-Link, and it definitely made an improvement to my Emotiva XDA-1, and the Audiophilleo 2 was an obvious improvement on that...
I use the AP with my Bifrost and it makes a huge difference (but, then, it cost as much as the Bifrost) so there IS something to reducing jitter to really low numbers....
I would also warn that expensive DACs, say above the $1500 price point, get somewhat "subjective".
I heard a $30,000 one once.... it didn't sound any better than the $1000 one sitting next to it...
Don't assume... and listen carefully.
Oh, and, yes, if you get a DAC with an asynch USB input (like the Bifrost) or a converter (like the HiFace, or V-Link, or Audiophilleo),
then you should expect any differences you might hear between USB cables to be minimal (or nonexistent).
(From an engineering point of view, expectations should tend towards nonexistent.)
If you have a NON-asynch USB input, then who knows?
DO try for a double blind test before spending the money, though....
DACMan
i use one of these on my desktop Dared EF-99
2 box Tube dac , preamp , headphone , ipod , blutooth , 1wpc amp
http://www.daredtube.com/mini.htm
2 box Tube dac , preamp , headphone , ipod , blutooth , 1wpc amp
http://www.daredtube.com/mini.htm
Attachments
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EF-99.jpg
The new DAC2 is amazing but I have two DAC1s, one a DAC1 Pre, and I love them. I was also impressed by the Schiit Gungnir shown at RMAF and the Mytek. The DAC2 is more resolving than the DAC1 and a bit smoother on top based on my limited listening so far.
A "double blind" test is the best possible way to compare two different but similar things. In a double blind test, neither the subject nor the one conducting the test knows which product or device is which. (There are various versions, but the basic idea is as follows. You have two devices connected to some sort of switch. Every time you hit a button you get to hear one or the other. Each time you write down something like "trial #1, liked device A". At the end the computer running the switch tells you which one you liked each time and the total number of times you liked each. The whole point is that you pick the one you like each time without being biased by how much it cost, or how it looks, or the brand, or even which one the guy running the test likes. That way you find out if there's really a difference and, if so, which one you like better.)
ALL of us have biases: we may like the shiniest one, or the biggest one, or the most expensive one, or the one made by our famous company, or even the cheapest one.... and, if the guy doing the test likes one or the other, he may well unconsciously communicate HIS bias to us. The classic one is where you go to visit your friend, and he says "how do you like my new amp"..... You can't possibly formulate an honest answer because you know it's new, you know he likes it, you know whether it looks expensive or not, and you know he probably hopes you'll like it. You probably can't be honest with him, and you probably can't even be honest with yourself and avoid an unconscious bias to like it.
Unfortunately, doing a real double blind test requires some sort of computerized switch, so most of us aren't going to really bother..... but we can at least do a "single blind" test - where a friend switches the wires back and forth several times.... each time we say which one we like better.... and he tells us later whether we at least usually picked the same one or whether it was really random.
Also unfortunately, even blind tests fail to solve one problem... the "new is better" bias..... That's the simple tendency that, when we hear a new anything, and it obviously sounds DIFFERENT, we tend to assume it must be better. We must remember that, even if a new speaker (or wire) sounds different, and even if we happen to know that it costs more, that doesn't mean it's BETTER. Manufacturers capitalize on this by making "new and improved" products that sound different than old ones, or different than everybody else's.... (Usually they TELL YOU it's better, followed by some technical sounding explanation or "proof" of why it "must" sound better. You now have a bias to hear a difference - whether one exists or not, and to assume any difference you hear - or imagine you hear - is an improvement.)
ALL of us have biases: we may like the shiniest one, or the biggest one, or the most expensive one, or the one made by our famous company, or even the cheapest one.... and, if the guy doing the test likes one or the other, he may well unconsciously communicate HIS bias to us. The classic one is where you go to visit your friend, and he says "how do you like my new amp"..... You can't possibly formulate an honest answer because you know it's new, you know he likes it, you know whether it looks expensive or not, and you know he probably hopes you'll like it. You probably can't be honest with him, and you probably can't even be honest with yourself and avoid an unconscious bias to like it.
Unfortunately, doing a real double blind test requires some sort of computerized switch, so most of us aren't going to really bother..... but we can at least do a "single blind" test - where a friend switches the wires back and forth several times.... each time we say which one we like better.... and he tells us later whether we at least usually picked the same one or whether it was really random.
Also unfortunately, even blind tests fail to solve one problem... the "new is better" bias..... That's the simple tendency that, when we hear a new anything, and it obviously sounds DIFFERENT, we tend to assume it must be better. We must remember that, even if a new speaker (or wire) sounds different, and even if we happen to know that it costs more, that doesn't mean it's BETTER. Manufacturers capitalize on this by making "new and improved" products that sound different than old ones, or different than everybody else's.... (Usually they TELL YOU it's better, followed by some technical sounding explanation or "proof" of why it "must" sound better. You now have a bias to hear a difference - whether one exists or not, and to assume any difference you hear - or imagine you hear - is an improvement.)
Latest frugal-phile DAC - the Korg DS-DAC-10. So far, it's Japan-only and the first 1,000 sold out within a month. Projected to be around $600. Does everything from 44.1 to 5.6MHz DSD.
USB powered - it doesn't sound as good as my Weiss, but it's 1/10th the price, and it does DSD.
USB powered - it doesn't sound as good as my Weiss, but it's 1/10th the price, and it does DSD.
Mortsnets - Welcome to WBF. There are some threads on optimizing a laptop for music here:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?7385-Gary-s-Music-Server
I have learned a bunch of new terms installed Foobar2000, Fidelizer, trial version of JPlay, tweaked and rebooted many times and my computer audio sounds much better. But not as good as my cheapo Sony Playstation 1 cd player.
Any recommendations for frugal non-oversampling dacs like the one at this site:
http://audio.starting-point-systems.com/
Any recommendations for frugal non-oversampling dacs like the one at this site:
http://audio.starting-point-systems.com/
Mortsnets, I don't have any experience with the Schiit or the Starting Point Systems DAC so I have no idea if it's the computer or the DAC.
That one looks fine for a starting NOS DAC - bear in mind it does not look to correct the NOS rolled off FR, so will sound a bit dark over the top two octaves. Having battery power means its immune to common-mode noise effects so should deliver a non-fatiguing, low sibilance sound. The output impedance will be a bit on the high side as it has no on-board buffer.
Thanks, seems like it might be pretty "nondigital" sounding.
What are the audible effects of the high output impedance?
Yes, definitely non-digital sounding - I have played with and built a few TDA1543 based DACs myself and they all have had a very relaxing, non-fatiguing sound when done correctly. Rather coloured when compared with better DAC chips, but the better performing chips are more difficult to do right in terms of layout and circuit topology.
The high output impedance only becomes an issue if you're using longish cables which contribute substantial capacitance, with under a couple of metres I can't forsee any difficulties.
I did omit one important factor here - the output of a TDA1543 is a staircase waveform and so the next item in the signal chain is going to be exposed to a lot of OOB (out of audio band) energy. Some amps/preamps might take offense to this and not deliver their best sound. The best thing to connect this DAC to would be valve-based as tube kit is relatively more immune to such abuse than transistor. The worst thing to connect it to would be an opamp input stage
as this would probably be overloaded by the steep slope of the waveform. So do pay attention to what it feeds.
The high output impedance only becomes an issue if you're using longish cables which contribute substantial capacitance, with under a couple of metres I can't forsee any difficulties.
I did omit one important factor here - the output of a TDA1543 is a staircase waveform and so the next item in the signal chain is going to be exposed to a lot of OOB (out of audio band) energy. Some amps/preamps might take offense to this and not deliver their best sound. The best thing to connect this DAC to would be valve-based as tube kit is relatively more immune to such abuse than transistor. The worst thing to connect it to would be an opamp input stage
as this would probably be overloaded by the steep slope of the waveform. So do pay attention to what it feeds.Similar threads
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